Creationism

>"Creationists are just a tiny but vocal fringe group"

gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx

46% of Americans hold creationist views. As Christians are 75-80% of Americans the subset of American Christians that hold creationist views is around 60~%. (The question was worded: “Do you believe that all life on Earth appeared in its present form some time within the last 10,000 years?”)

>”But that’s just Protestants and Baptists”

pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Religious-Differences-on-the-Question-of-Evolution.aspx

Catholicism: 35% creationists


What do we do about this? Now there's two states in which it is legally taught in public school science classrooms, Louisiana and Tennessee. These are the victories we were assured could never happen.

It seems to be getting steadily worse, in part because whenever you try to stop it all you get in response is fedora memes from Christians who "supposedly" aren't creationists. Not that they will admit, anyway.

Go read the comments on any Youtube video related to evolution and despair for the future of humanity

Other urls found in this thread:

pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
theguardian.com/science/2009/feb/01/evolution-darwin-survey-creationism
spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/contesting-evolution-european-creationists-take-on-darwin-a-609712.html
blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/23/creationists-infect-europe/#.U746q_ldUZw
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker_metric
todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/06/arabic-prefix-al-mean/
und.edu/instruct/lgeller/algebra.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

The number one enemy of civilization is secularism and it must always be the first target of destruction. Not creationism.

"Secularism" just means no one religion is in charge. It is the absence of theocracy. What you're really saying there is that you want one particular religion to control government.

Yes, there is one particular religion which should control the state.

Any religion that non whites partake in to such a huge degree is probably a shit religion

They all want to. They all think they're right, too.

>tfw you unironically believe scientific positivism is a cancer.

>that horrendous rictus grin
Americans, plz stop

We are right. I can assure you of that.

...

I see. Supposing there were a group of people traveling about the country today, led by a charismatic speaker who claims the world is ending soon, but he can save you if you sell your belongings, devote your life to him and cut off family members who try to stop you. He'd also like you to leave your home and job if necessary to follow him.

What sort of group is that?

I don't understand what that has to do with creationism.

>scientific community says universe is constant and eternal
>they make fun of those saying it is expanding from a single point- they call it religious dogma/bad science.
> Hubble discovers universe is indeed expanding from a single point.
>Scientific community absorbs this idea as their own with no apology or admission of error.

>Models suggest that universe should become more chaotic
>We are discovering that since the expansion event, matter has become more orderly (see crystal structure or DNA), matter accretes with similar matter into cosmic bodies to form systems.
>Over repetitive episodes of chaos, the universe seems to be ordering itself telescopically, the pinnacle being a process of biological evolution resulting in complex/sentient beings with language, markets, cultures, art, technology, etc.

Explain to me why creationism is not logically justified again. It would appear that after expanding from a single point, the universe is ordering itself.

...

>Scientific community absorbs this idea as their own with no apology or admission of error.

You mean like Christians have tried to do with evolution?

>Models suggest that universe should become more chaotic

You mean entropy.

>We are discovering that since the expansion event, matter has become more orderly (see crystal structure or DNA), matter accretes with similar matter into cosmic bodies to form systems.

This does not contradict entropy. You are positioning two things as contradictory which never were.

>Explain to me why creationism is not logically justified again.

Because:

1. Genesis asserts that the Earth existed before the sun, trees and other land vegetation before sea creatures and birds before land animals. The order itself is wrong, and it's never been explained what is metaphorically conveyed by getting the order wrong which could not have been conveyed while keeping the order accurate.

2. Life is not the product of deliberate engineering but instead gradual procedural accumulation of complexity (hence fractal patterns found in all living things). Genesis says nothing whatsoever about evolution, and both the order and timeline supplied therein preclude it.

3. Every natural phenomenon we know the cause of has turned out to have a natural cause. We agree the universe needs to have been caused, but it's never been explained why that cause must be intelligent.

>It would appear that after expanding from a single point, the universe is ordering itself.

Into what? Give that some extended thought.

Sure it should be taught as a possible alternative.

Also they should teach that the universe is possibly the matrix and maybe elves created everyone in a mag jar.

Oh oh oh they can teach that this is actually all a dream.

All things with as much proof behind them as creationism.

THEIR?
THERE. jesus christ

Christian Vernacular English is a legitimate dialect, shitlord

Holy shit i am fucking mad

Remember, you've been wrong about shit. I've been wrong too. The only thing that really rustles my jimmies about these people is that they become hostile if you try to set them straight.

You don't know that I've ever been wrong about anything DESU senpai

They are good for some laughs though

>Life is not the product of deliberate engineering but instead gradual procedural accumulation of complexity (hence fractal patterns found in all living things).

If, hypothetically, the original expansion was conducted by a creator, wouldn't that "gradual procedural accumulation" of complexity have Ben set in motion at the moment of creation?
Also you make the mistake of assuming I am referring to genesis creation specifically. Rather my point is based on the notion that the scientific community and its greatest minds staked their claim that the universe was NOT expanding, because that idea lended itself to the idea of a creator, which was unacceptable in their minds.

We did in fact discover that the universe was expanding from a single point contrary to our understanding of physics at the time. I find it telling that you would answer my claim that they appropriated this idea with an accusation that the religious community appropriated some other idea. It's almost an admission that this appropriation did in fact occur in the case of the "Big Bang." I cannot think of any intellectual appropriation more grand than absorbing another group's theory about the nature of the universe itself.

The universe went from the turmoil of all energy and matter being structure-less to star systems, planetary systems, biological systems, cultural systems, etc. The matter of the universe has ordered itself, the "gradual accumulation of complexity" is the same force I would refer to when I used the word "God."

I am not suggesting that the phenomena explaining these things cannot be explained naturally, but simply that the possibility of those phenomena came into existence in an instant from a single point. There is a reason Einstein fought so hardly against the early notion of an expanding universe, he realized it would suggest that the universe and all its "natural phenomena" were not constant, but "engaged" by a single episode of creation.

The problem isn't creationists.

It's possible to be an intelligent human being and a creationist.

The problem is young earth creationists. Shit tier of intelligence.

Haha, ok bud. I just mean it's no crime to be wrong, but it is if you fight people trying to help you understand better.

>If, hypothetically, the original expansion was conducted by a creator, wouldn't that "gradual procedural accumulation" of complexity have Ben set in motion at the moment of creation?

The thing is, you don't have any evidence based reason to think this is true. This is just what would have to be true to salvage Christianity. You have designed this narrative around reaching that goal.

>Rather my point is based on the notion that the scientific community and its greatest minds staked their claim that the universe was NOT expanding, because that idea lended itself to the idea of a creator, which was unacceptable in their minds.

Not all of them, and you're lying when you say it was never acknowledged that steady state was mistaken.

>We did in fact discover that the universe was expanding from a single point contrary to our understanding of physics at the time. I find it telling that you would answer my claim that they appropriated this idea with an accusation that the religious community appropriated some other idea. It's almost an admission that this appropriation did in fact occur in the case of the "Big Bang." I cannot think of any intellectual appropriation more grand than absorbing another group's theory about the nature of the universe itself.

Boy, you're really trying to get as much mileage as possible out of this one single thing, aren't you? How could "appropriation" have taken place when the scientist responsible for discovering the big bang was a priest?

>The universe went from the turmoil of all energy and matter being structure-less to star systems, planetary systems, biological systems, cultural systems, etc. The matter of the universe has ordered itself, the "gradual accumulation of complexity" is the same force I would refer to when I used the word "God."

That process you describe is found nowhere in Genesis, though. Genesis describes an initial, rapid ordering of the universe, then gradual deterioration.

pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW

We're actually growing in number. You might as well join us.

...

>"We're actually growing in number. You might as well join us."

I don't think the nature of the universe is a topic which runs out of mileage very quickly. In fact I would argue Hubble's discovery is one of the most meaningful of all time, and our small exchange so far hasn't even come close to exhuasting it's importance.

The funny thing about hypotheticals is that they don't require any evidence, however I would suggest that my "evidence" is the fact that the universe is expanding contrary to most* of the secular scientific community at the time.

And I would surely apologize to those scientists who I am lumping into a category, and if I could I would explain to them that I am making a generalization, and that they have unfortunately been thrown into a category because the majority of their colleagues laughed at the idea of an expanding universe and ridiculed it.

I'm not referring to genesis, I'm referring to the theoretical idea that the universe was created by some force or being, whomever or whatever it may be. The importance of the universe's nature is the entire argument in this case. Your inordinate focus on one subset of creationism is evidence that your disagreement is most likely more motivated by a personal vendetta against one particular worldview and not the larger idea of "creationism." Think about that word, and tell me where in "creationism" you find a necessary discussion of the book of genesis?

Sorry I responded to the wrong post,

See

>I'm not referring to genesis

I am forcing you to.

>I'm referring to the theoretical idea that the universe was created by some force or being, whomever or whatever it may be.

You are a Christian. You mean Yahweh, god of the Bible.

>The importance of the universe's nature is the entire argument in this case. Your inordinate focus on one subset of creationism is evidence that your disagreement is most likely more motivated by a personal vendetta against one particular worldview and not the larger idea of "creationism."

Almost all creationism in the US is specifically Christian.

>Think about that word, and tell me where in "creationism" you find a necessary discussion of the book of genesis?

See above. Also, please address this:

>3. Every natural phenomenon we know the cause of has turned out to have a natural cause. We agree the universe needs to have been caused, but it's never been explained why that cause must be intelligent.

A cult. "Cult" being negative is a modern thing.

So you are only prepared to argue on the topic as long as it develops in the way you want it to? This is a common characteristic of children.

I never brought up Genesis, you did. I know you want to talk about it badly, but the topic was creationism not biblical creationism. You criticize me for lumping all scientists in as steady staters, and then continue to collapse all creationism into that of evangical Christianity? And then you suggest that you won't continue to discuss the topic otherwise simply becuase a lot of other people believe in that specific type of creation?

You aren't talking to someone who believes in that subset of creationism- so accept that reality- and continue the conversation on that basis if you are capable.

I don't care as long as they're not blowing themselves up in crowded areas and shooting people. You atheist faggots are disingenuous with your religious hatred. You don't hate religions, you hate daddy. That's why you only attack benign white religions.

fuck off pope francis go finger blast some choir boys

Supposing I tell you that if you worship me, you'll receive an unverifiable future reward, but if you don't, you will suffer an unverifiable future punishment.

I also tell you time is short, so it's urgent that you go out and convince as many other people as possible to also worship me, so they can be spared the punishment and share in the reward.

Further, I tell you not to believe anything you see or hear that causes you to doubt what I have said, because it's all fabricated by an invisible trickster character who wants to lead you astray.

This is plainly just designed to spread itself and resist removal, isn't it? The intended outcome being that all of humanity, or as much as possible, worships me in perpetuity.

>You mean like Christians have tried to do with evolution?

Not an argument.

No seriously, how is this an argument?

I think the best argument I've seen for creationism is asking why we don't have more useless and unsightly body parts but I've yet to see a better argument from creationists to... wow really make me think.

sounds like you're describing Islam.

>So you are only prepared to argue on the topic as long as it develops in the way you want it to? This is a common characteristic of children.

No, I am simply not allowing you to obfuscate your position and motivations.

>I never brought up Genesis, you did

Genesis is the basis for the concept that the universe had an intelligent creator in the west. I guarantee it's where you got the idea from.

>but the topic was creationism not biblical creationism.

Yes it was, scroll to the top of the thread.

>and then continue to collapse all creationism into that of evangical Christianity?

There is no creationism outside of Abrahamic religion that has any significant presence anywhere. "Intelligent design", what you seem to be advocating, is a way to argue for creationism without having to defend Genesis.

>You aren't talking to someone who believes in that subset of creationism- so accept that reality- and continue the conversation on that basis if you are capable.

Address the question you have so far ignored, if you are capable:

>3. Every natural phenomenon we know the cause of has turned out to have a natural cause. We agree the universe needs to have been caused, but it's never been explained why that cause must be intelligent.

Indeed I am, but also Mormonism and Christianity. All Abrahamic religions use that same formula, hence why they dominate the globe. It is extremely effective at what it's designed to do.

beyond punchable face

>Circular logic
What an embarrassment to my side.

At least you are not a Muslim, that's something. Here in the US there's a tiny joke group that defends flat earthism. But in the Middle East it is still a serious position many believe in.

Appeared as in just poofed there? Or appeared as in evolved to its current state? Strictly speaking since nearly nothing alive on earth is over 10,000 years old all life must have appeared in its 'present state' within the last 10,000 years.

This is why teachers in school need to explain that a scientific theory is different from the type of theory we all think of.

she is not wrong

We should focus heavily on the evolution of humans and the differences between races.

You will be excused from this conversation on the basis that you are actually suggesting there is no basis for creationism except a literal interpretation of Genesis.

And to answer your question for the 5th time, I believe the fact that the universe expanded from a single point in time and space is a good enough indicator to justify a belief in a creator, especially considering the fact that the greatest minds in science and physics laughed at the idea before it was proven. Whether this creator can be described as "intelligent" is an interesting question, but altogether irrelevant to my point that, the universe is not constant and eternal, but rather, in a state of expansion after a single moment of creation.

Catholics IN THE USA maybe.
Creationists don't exist in Europe.

Believing in creationism is stupid, but it's not really inherently "destructive" like people such as Bill Nye have said. They should just continue stay out of the fields where their views go against what everyone else studies, and their children should be properly taught.

You got nothing to bring to the table I guess.

>not allowed to attack christians because shitskins exist
Damn it dad.

You forget the part where he says everyone around you will hate you and will eventually come to kill you for your belief. And the part where you admit that we will lose the earthly battle. Or the part where you live in humility and be humble. Or the part where we "spread the word" not through direct preaching but by living out the virtues that others may see the improvement in your being that christ offers.
Christianity promises alot more negatives in your current life than positives.

>unverifiable
The holy spirit is your verification. Those who have received him know it. Those who dont (like you) think its foolishness. That is my favorite part.

And that guy your arguing with sucks at arguing. Cant stick around though to refute. Both of you need to read "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis

>Explain to me why creationism is not logically justified again.

Science corrects itself with new information

Dogma contradicts itself despite new information

not wrong no, because she didn't make any claims. The question is just really dumb

Rare?

>I can assure you of that.
go on then. Assure me.

So the notion that the universe was created is necessarily dogma? You seem to reject the idea altogether despite the fact that the origin of the universe as we currently understand it is more in line with "creationism." Aka the entire universe expanded from a single time and place.

Be careful that your reaction against the notion of creation does not become dogma itself.

>Aka the entire universe expanded from a single time and place.
What has that got to do with creationism?

Before Hubble, Einstein believed the idea that the universe expanded from a single place and time was absurd- because he perceived it as religious dogma. He understood that if the universe expanded from a single place and time, it would be a great reinforcement of the notion that it was created.

It is not "proof," that much is true, but instead of the physics community exposing the dogma of religion, quite the opposite happened- they had to admit that the dogma of religion was in fact correct on the topic of the universe's nature.

I'm not saying it is proof, I'm just curious where exactly the illusion of certainty (that creationism is absurd) comes from? It would seem that so far, the creationists and their dogma have been correct. The universe is not constant and eternal- we know that much. So I'm simply asking where the certainty comes from? It almost sounds like... Dogma.

>they had to admit that the dogma of religion was in fact correct on the topic of the universe's nature.
in what way?

>I'm just curious where exactly the illusion of certainty (that creationism is absurd) comes from?
There is no supporting evidence for the claims that the earth was created 4 thousand years ago and all the current species were created then as well.

>So I'm simply asking where the certainty comes from?
Certainty regarding what?

>science uses logic and data to reach their conclusions
>religion uses a book full of miracles and fairy tales that was written by some Jews in a desert 3000 years ago

>The universe is not eternal and constant as physics originally predicted.

>the universe sprang from a singular point in time and space.

I have made an argument for it being created without having referenced a single religious text. You have been arguing against evangelical Christians to the point where you cannot imagine it any other way.

You are too bluepilled to see your mistake. Evolution is a hoax and you're fighting with people who tried to stop it spreading.

Evolution is just a theory anyways deal with it atheists. You all need to check your white male privileges.

>how do you explain a sunset if there is no apollo?

>The universe is not eternal and constant as physics originally predicted.
Physics never predicted this. Einstein simply presumed it was true. He famously even had to adjust general relativity to make it make sense for a static universe, it would have predicted an expanding one otherwise. It was only after we learned the universe is expanding that he realised he made a mistake.

>the universe sprang from a singular point in time and space.
The universe was once much much much more compressed than it is now. But what happened before that is not at all clear. We know it expanded, but there's much debate on where the stuff came from in the first place. The big bang theory does not make predictions for this.

Religious people suggest the universe was expanding because it correlated with the notion that it was created. Then the best scientist excused that idea as religious dogma- they ridiculed it. Then they discovered the "dogma" was true- the universe was indeed expanding from a single point.

This has nothing to do with the four thousand year date or any religious text.

How can you be so certain the idea that the universe was created is total nonsense when our experiences so far, have only reinforced the fact that the universe is ordered in a way that agrees with the creationists, and the creationists predicted its nature before it was readily observable.

go back to molseting little boys you suck disgusting pedo. Your "civilation" is literally just institionalized pedophelia and your church was started so older men could get away with fucking little boys.

>Creationists don't exist in Europe.

theguardian.com/science/2009/feb/01/evolution-darwin-survey-creationism
spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/contesting-evolution-european-creationists-take-on-darwin-a-609712.html
blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/23/creationists-infect-europe/#.U746q_ldUZw

>Einstein was the greatest scientists ever
>his predictions about Quantum Mechanics were all completely wrong
nice meme

>And to answer your question for the 5th time, I believe the fact that the universe expanded from a single point in time and space is a good enough indicator to justify a belief in a creator, especially considering the fact that the greatest minds in science and physics laughed at the idea before it was proven.

This does not explain why the cause of the big bang is necessarily an intelligent being rather than a natural phenomenon, like the cause of everything else in nature we have so far observed

>Religious people suggest the universe was expanding because it correlated with the notion that it was created.
When did religious people ever suggest an expanding universe? I've never heard of this. I've only ever heard that it was created, which doesn't suggest that it would be expanding. No more does it imply the earth must be expanding by extension of the idea that it was created.

>This has nothing to do with the four thousand year date or any religious text.
This is what most people think of when they think of creationists, and a lot of creationists believe this. That's the stuff they find to be so silly.

I think we are more in agreement than we think, perhaps my presentation of the steady state position took some liberties, but can we agree that the scientific community, at the time, rejected the expanding universe in favor of a presumption that it was static, because they deemed expanding universe theories as religious attempts to form science to their belief system?

Whether that is true or not, it doesn't change the fact that they were actually right- the universe is expanding from a single point. Maybe it was just a lucky guess, who knows.

>it doesn't change the fact that they were actually right- the universe is expanding from a single point.

What holy book says this, and where?

>but can we agree that the scientific community, at the time, rejected the expanding universe
When was expanding universe ever a concept put forward by religious people before it was observed? I've never even heard a religious person claim that their scriptures predicted this today.

>the scientific community, at the time, rejected the expanding universe in favor of a presumption that it was static, because they deemed expanding universe theories as religious attempts to form science to their belief system
You're literally just making shit up.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker_metric

Georges Lemaître was the first known person to pen the theory of the expanding universe. He was a priest.

And you shouldn't put an idea as large as creationism in such a small box. It undermines any intellectual superiority you think* you have.

>the universe is expanding from a single point.
That's literally not true though. If you think that you don't understand how expansion works. There is no centre of the universe to expand from.

>Georges Lemaître was the first known person to pen the theory of the expanding universe. He was a priest.

Muslims invented Algebra. Therefore Islam is true?

This just means the point in question is 4 dimensional.

>Georges Lemaître was the first known person to pen the theory of the expanding universe.
When? Was it a physics theory or a theological one? Did he make the theory based on religious scripts?

>And you shouldn't put an idea as large as creationism in such a small box.
I didn't. You asked me why so many people think creationism is silly, and I told you why i think it is.

>Muslims invented Algebra

When will that meme end?

The good user suggested no religious people had anything to do with the theory of the expanding universe. I corrected him.

Where you assumed I was trying to validate a faith based belief system escapes me.

That's not clear either. Observations so far suggest the universe is flat and is in fact infinite. We may find observations that suggest otherwise in the future however.

Al-gebra
Al-chemy
Al-

etc.

The prefix Al- is an Islamic one, just meaning "the". todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/06/arabic-prefix-al-mean/

>Where you assumed I was trying to validate a faith based belief system escapes me.

Where'd I say that you were?

>The good user suggested no religious people had anything to do with the theory of the expanding universe.
I didn't though. I suggested religious scriptures didn't predict it as far as I know. Lots of religious people of physicists. Even some priests are.

I don't know what motivated his theories, but there was a widespread negative reaction by the general scientific community for some reason; to the point they postulated incredible theories to avoid coming to the conclusion that the universe was expanding.

There are fools of all stripe. I know secular people who would amaze you with their stupidity. Many of them.

invention is a bit off, but they did improved it surely
I'm an atheist and one should give the devil his due, but to say muslims invented algebra is as absurd as saying greeks invented mathematics, since manthano is greek.

as if babylonians,egyptians etc were totally ignorant about it.

>Lots of religious people of physicists

A minority though.

You know that etymology does not prove your claim, right?

>there was a widespread negative reaction by the general scientific community for some reason
No, a handful of people disagreed with it and were ultimately wrong. You keep pushing this falsity.

und.edu/instruct/lgeller/algebra.html

>"The word algebra is a Latin variant of the Arabic word al-jabr. This came from the title of a book, Hidab al-jabr wal-muqubala, written in Baghdad about 825 A.D. by the Arab mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi."

>but there was a widespread negative reaction by the general scientific community for some reason
Lack of evidence? Theories without evidence are not looked upon fondly by physics. String theory for expand stipulated that all particles are vibrating strings, and the frequency they vibrate at determines the properties of the particle. This theory predicts almost everything we observe in the universe including everything predicted by quantum field theory and general relativity. A large proportion of physicists do not like this theory however because so far it cannot make any new predictions that we can test it with. If it can;t make testable predictions, how do we know it's true and what's the point of it?

Claiming the universe is expanding is a neat theory. But how do we test it? Before redshift measurements was possible there was no way, so why assume it's true?

There's certainly nothing at all foolish about being critical of such a theory. The big bang was criticized hugely, and there's still many parts of it that are fought over.

And I never said the scriptures* described it. The scriptures didn't predict it per se, but they did say that the universe sprang into being, which religious physicists equated to expansion from a single point a few decades before the steady state theory was disproven.

The logical connection between the Big Bang and religious-creation is obvious.

What part about this post did you not understand?

So are we arguing over what degree the scientific community disfavored the Big Bang theory originally?