/who/ Doctor Who General

This unit regrets having failed the Class before the current failed-the-Class edition, Mistress.

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youtube.com/watch?v=5j6m5qwTCtI
dailymotion.com/DavidAgnew
youtube.com/user/ElDoctorio/videos
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

How much fucking better would Class be if Ram had a K9 unit

like the least the Doctor could've done was given one of them a sonic device or something

>How much fucking better would Class be if Ram had a K9 unit
Or the thing in Quill's had is actually K9 Mark V.

>Mistress, I calculate a 97% probability that you are considering rendering that student permanently inoperable. Note that this would be contrary to your sentence and this unit would be forced to evaporate your brain.
>Shut up, K9. I was only fantasizing.
>Sorry, Mistress.

>I've never understood exactly what a "writers' room"
I worked in writers rooms in the 90s.

You hire a room full of staff writers—mostly people who seem talented and wrote a decent spec script, but don't have the established credits to make a living working freelance. There are a lot of these in LA, and standard guild rules for hiring them. In the UK, nobody's ever done it, at least not formally, which is why Chibnall had to go to the Guild and ask whether he could do it, and it's not clear who he'd be able to find (could he steal people out of the BBC writers' training program?).

They're led by a lead writer, who may or may be (one of) the showrunner(s).

There are still outside commissions, which work the same way they do in Doctor Who today—but instead of the showrunner polishing (or completely rewriting, if RTD) each script, the writers room does it collaboratively. Everyone reads the script, then there are brainstorming sessions on ideas to improve it. Assuming it doesn't get sent back, staff writers are assigned to punch up parts of the script that the lead writer thinks they'd be good at.

There are also usually scripts written by the lead writer/showrunner, and they go through the same process, but generally they don't get changed as much.

Meanwhile, the staff writers are expected to pitch episode ideas, both in brainstorming sessions and in formal pitches. If one of them is promising enough, the lead writer will assign someone (usually the one who pitched it, of course) to draft it, and then it goes through the same process. On ensemble shows, they usually combine the A-story from one pitch and the B-story from another, but that probably wouldn't happen on Who.

If late rewrites are needed because something isn't working out in rehearsal or even filming, sometimes those go to staff writers as well.

>might make quality control better (no Forest of the Night tier flops) but could also hurt individuality and make things more homogenous
Yes.

For example, watch S5 of NewsRadio--whenever Jon Lovitz and Andy Dick fight, it always sounds very similar, no matter who wrote the episode. That's because Other Mike got a rep for being good at Jon-Andy fights, so if a script had one of them, more likely than not Other Mike would be assigned to punch it up.

That makes the characters more consistent. And it means the scenes are always funny, even if the main writer didn't get the Jon-Andy dynamic. But it also means there's much less chance of getting something brilliantly different.

But even if that weren't a danger, I don't think Doctor Who should go all the way over to an American-style process at once. Having a much more active lead writer (whether that's Chibs himself or not), and maybe even doing the old BBC model of a powerful script editor at the same time as the writers room, would let them get some of the benefits of the American process without most of the risks.

The real risk is that British writers aren't used to working with a writers room. How does someone like Toby Whithouse take it when his dialog is changed, not by the genius in charge of the show, but by some scrub who's working for Guild minimum? For that matter, does that scrub actually feel confident enough to change the work of a real professional writer as much as it needs to be changed? So, it could all end up being a waste of time and money.

DWM NuWho-era mini-recap of K9&Co >>> actual pilot.

The ratings would have literally tripled if they brought K9 into it, too.
Which STILL isn't great, but you get what I'm saying.

New set photo

But K9 is for kiddies. and Class is for people who are old enough to hate kiddie stuff but not old enough to like kiddie stuff again (nor old enough to think "muh teen angst" and "omg those two hot guys are having sex" are not necessarily hallmarks of "mature audiences" TV).

Now that I think about it, there's not a lot of shows that wouldn't be improved by just adding K9.

Don't forget to visit /lbg/

>puts Class on web only BBC3 and a shitty time slot on BBC1 with abysmal promotion
>Puts Doctor Who on 1 year hiatus
>barely any promotion for Mysterio and Series 10

So is the "Doctor Who Cancellation" plan real?

I'm of the conviction that K9 isn't just for kids. He has this sardonic quality that John manages to pull off really well. I wanna see K9 employed more while John's still around.

There's also just something ironic about the way that K9 looks. It's got this retro sort of vibrant thing going on, but if he were in a dark-filtered setting (I'm thinking of those scenes from Class's "Nightvisiting" episode that were set outside at night) then that would contrast with it to the point of ironic comedy.

deadass

>So is the "Doctor Who Cancellation" plan real?
I hope so. I want to write a Doctor Who novel for the Wilderness Years 2.0

..fuck. Me, too.

I really hope that whomever the show ends with is a cool Doctor to write for.

>I really hope that whomever the show ends with is a cool Doctor to write for.
Personally, I want to write for the War Doctor and think that's untapped potential. The best book ranges are when the books are essentially primary canon, and can do whatever they want. Like 7th and 8th Doctor. As far as I can see, that's what the War Doctor is now. It's like a completely blank era that you can fill with any characters/story arcs you want.

But of course, if the show got cancelled you wouldn't need that anymore.

Big Finish handles it really nicely, but doesn't get too risky with it (I haven't listened to the final volume yet). I also haven't read the books, of which there are few.

I hope that there's a sense of checks and balances between mediums like BF and novels in the wildy 2.0 because I hate the lack of universal continuity that we've had.

Look at us, talking about the end of NuWho like it's a thing of fact.

>I'm of the conviction that K9 isn't just for kids.
No, he's not. But he's "kiddie" enough that most teens won't want to admit they like him, until they go to uni and realize they can pretend to only like him ironically so it's all cool.

Nope BF's War Doctor is the biggest trash. Only volume 4 shows even any sign of being better.

>BF's War Doctor is the biggest trash
frank offerino

>Only volume 4 shows even any sign of being better.
Have you listened to it?

I listed to three volumes and what I got out of it was a whole bunch of shit that I don't give a fuck about. Dark Eyes was far better than this and more experimental to boot.

I've listened to E1. The ending and the beginning were good but I must have tuned out in the middle.

>So is the "Doctor Who Cancellation" plan real?

>BBC's #1 bullet point in their 2015 report to Parliament was the record-breaking ratings of Doctor Who S9 in most overseas markets, including America.
>BBC's #1 bullet point in their 2016 report to Parliament was the unprecedented Amazon Video deal for Doctor Who.
>Overseas merch sales are higher than ever.
>Domestic merch sales, while not quite recovered to 2010 levels, are the highest they've been in the Moffat era.

Yeah, I'm sure they want to cancel it.

>Big Finish handles it really nicely, but doesn't get too risky with it
It's surprising how tame they've been, considering what they've done with much less wide-open gaps to work with. 8 didn't get all the experimental stories and radical character development; they also did it for 6, 5 and Peri, and 7 and Ace (which might seem more open-ended, but remember that, at least initially, their stories were explicitly set before the NAs). So why doesn't War get any of that?

I think it's because Moffat was right in the first place, and the Time War is a boring setting. What's cool about it is that it's not just a war but a time war, and this makes it incomprehensible to lower life forms like us. So, as soon as you make it comprehensible to lower life forms like us, you've ruined it.

A new thread, a new reminder

>Nope BF's War Doctor is the biggest trash
Why'd you (you) me for this? I was saying that the War Doctor era is untapped potential for a novel range, BF doing poorly with the War Doctor doesn't change this at all.

>I hate the lack of universal continuity that we've had.
Why?

That lack of universal continuity is what made the Eighth Doctor so interesting. Imagine if the novels couldn't do Interference or Father Time because it would screw with the audios too much.Or if DWM had to go with Stacy and Ssard instead of Izzy for continuity with RT. And stories like Tomorrow Windows or Caerdroia would never have even been dreamed up without the conflicting stories being an issue.

>Ssard
Just realized something: Hello, Victorian England. I'm a lizard person from Mars, and this is my girlfriend, Stacy. All Moffat did was make him a different lizard race and female. See, he doesn't just copy the EDAs.

>tfw Gareth can stay awake longer than /who/

>turning into

...

who the fuck is samantha

Samantha Briggs from The Faceless Ones

...

>BBC's #1 bullet point in their 2015 report to Parliament was the record-breaking ratings of Doctor Who S9 in most overseas markets, including America.
>BBC's #1 bullet point in their 2016 report to Parliament was the unprecedented Amazon Video deal for Doctor Who.
>Overseas merch sales are higher than ever.
>Domestic merch sales, while not quite recovered to 2010 levels, are the highest they've been in the Moffat era.

Holy fuck. If this is true (and I've no reason to believe it isn't), why all the bad press for the show in the UK?

"Peter Capaldi leaps to defence of Doctor Who's Tardis brain-twisters:
While moving from the traditional teatime slot has hit viewing figures, merchandise sales have also taken a dip as the show has become simply too brain-teasing for younger viewers".

mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/peter-capaldi-leaps-defence-doctor-9306509

>Why all the bad press for the show in the UK?
1. S9's UK ratings really were as bad as its US (and MX, ZA, etc.) ratings were good.

2. Doctor Who's viewership in the UK (and maybe a few other places like AU and NZ) may well be a lot more dependent on children, or entire families, than in most overseas markets, so there could be something to the "Moffat is driving away kids" argument.

3. There's a weird sort of group-think within the limited sphere of UK entertainment news. Once a presenter hears a more famous presenter say give an opinion on TV or, worse, at a party, he will almost invariably give the same opinion himself. (And RTD used to manage that groupthink by going to all those same parties; Moffat doesn't.) So, we could well see a consensus around that argument even if there isn't actually anything to it.

OK, makes sense.

Really interesting stuff, thanks for all this. It doesn't sound like it'd be right for Who - I think the current situation works well enough.

>barely any promotion for Mysterio
I honestly think this is a good thing. No-one who isn't an ardent Who fan would look at a trailer for that and think "yes, this will be a good way to spend an hour of my time".

If a teenager is willing to admit they watch a Doctor Who spinoff, they'll be willing to admit that they like K-9.

>I think the current situation works well enough.
Except for the year off between S9 and S10, the rushed finales for S2-4 and S6, Moffat's increasing crankiness and blowups, and the fact that there's probably no one better than Chibnall available to take the show over…

I don't necessarily think the US model is the right answer—as I said originally, I think even if they do it, they should only go part-way. But I think it would be an worthwhile experiment if Chibnall really wants to try it. (Remember that all we know is that he had one brief convo with the then-head of the Guild last summer…)

For some reason I want to point out that Sarah Dollard is familiar with writer's rooms. She started her career as an intern in Neighbours' writing room and spent 4 years there. So at least one Doctor Who writer would not find the change challenging.

Why not just have two showrunners?

Interesting. I know very little about Australian TV, but I guess I stupidly just assumed without checking that it worked a lot more like the UK than the US.

Also, from what I've heard, even in the UK, soaps have often sort of approximated a writers room without officially having one, which means people like Gareth, Lance Parkin, Rebecca Levine, etc. would probably get the hang of it pretty quickly.

>Jamie straight up ditches her for more time and space adventures
Hell of a choice. She was pretty cool, too.
Still, space bros before hos.

What level Doctor Who fan are you? Here's the revised list.

>Level 0
Not a fan. Don't consume any Doctor Who

>Level 1
Casual watcher of either Classic or New Who but not both.

>Level 2
Casual watcher of both Classic and New Who

>Level 3
Active watcher of Classic or New Who but don't bother with other media

>Level 4
Active Watcher of Classic and New Who and dabble in other media (Audios, Comics, Novels) or spin offs (Class, Faction Paradox, Torchwood, the David Tennant era).

>Level 5
Active watcher of Classic and New Who; Active interest in other media or spin offs.

>Level 6
Versed enough in Doctor Who to get picky with authority.

>Level 7
True Hatred of all things Doctor Who.

> Level 12
Lawrence Miles

> +1 Level
Post on a forum.

> +1 Level
Post on Day /who/.

>> +2 Levels
Post on Night /who/.

>Why not just have two showrunners?
Sure. The potential for ego conflicts and responsibility conflicts might be a problem, but with the right people, it might not.

Or, alternatively, a separate executive producer and lead writer—which has a different ego problem in that you then have to find a writer who wants to be #2 rather than #1 on the show, but I think that's less serious. (Reminder that Jamie Mathieson turned down a showrunner position to be lead writer instead for the French Heavy Metal series.)

Heaven Sent now has 9.6 on IMDB

>tfw 4+2 levels

what level is "not autistic"?

>Hell of a choice. She was pretty cool, too.
>Still, space bros before hos.
My headcanon is that Jamie had a premonition that he'd meet Victoria next week.

Level 4

>what level is "not autistic"?
You're posting on /who/. That means that neither you nor anyone you know could possibly qualify for any level that counts as not autistic.
Any level that includes posting on /who/ is autistic.

I (in NZ) torrent the episodes before they even air in NZ because I didn't want anything spoiled. Although now days its only a day or so behind it used to be a week

I should point out that this means the MAJORITY of the 5,343 users who reviewed it gave it a 10/10. Truly GOATer than GOAT.

Heaven Sent has been 9.6 on IMDB for awhile now.

Level 10 sounds... fair.
He said, wrapping his season 18 scarf more tightly around his neck to fight the sudden chill running up his spine.

Oops, forgot to +1, level 5.

>My headcanon is that Jamie had a premonition that he'd meet Victoria next week.
I like that, but mine is that Jamie just assumed Samantha would join him and the Doctor after she saved her brother, and at the last second, he realized they'd never asked her, and it turned out she had no intention of coming along, and he hadn't prepared himself to deal with that.

So, exactly the same thing that happened to Mac Hulke and Peter Bryant when they realized they'd forgot to ask Pauline if she wanted a permanent role on the show as Samantha and she had no intention of joining so they had to hastily edit the last episode's script.

Despite being Australian myself, I don't really know much about Australian TV either. But after watching Face the Raven I read a bunch about Dollard and here's roughly what I remember:

Neighbours used to have a year-round program where they'd accept interns into their writer's room (it's now limited to like 1 month a year or something). And the writer room process would be that every week they'd all sit down with a blank whiteboard and come up with that week's plotlines/stories, and each episode would be handed off to a scriptwriter to turn it into a script. The interns in the writer's room basically had to try and keep their heads above water, and if they kept managing to contribute enough then eventually they were promoted to permanent positions. Dollard was a script editor for a few years.

Honestly, personally there's nothing more I'd want right now than to sit in on a writer's room. I don't care what show it would be, just anything. I think it would just be such a great way to learn and get experience.

>I (in NZ) torrent the episodes before they even air in NZ because I didn't want anything spoiled.
I used to do that, but then I realized that very few episodes, and generally not good ones, are actually spoiled at all by spoilers.

Which should have been obvious from the fact that the best ones are usually even better the second time you watch them, but somehow Moffat fooled me into thinking otherwise.

So now I just torrent them before they air because I'm impatient. :)

Level 12 desu

l'm at 6 and Post on forums

but I am in the opposite time zone for the Day/Night but I usually go in and out of the /who/ general whenever I am at my computer

So 6+3

that is depressing

davison BTFO

Reviews like this one are probably the reason it's 9.6 instead of 10/10.

>Worst episode ever. From start to virtually the end this episode was a pile of rubbish. The only good part was seeing the Doctor on Gallifrey, right at the end, for like 5 seconds. There have been very few Episodes of Doctor Who that I didn't like, only 1 or 2 that I hated before this, but this episode, I just despised it. This episode featured 2 main characters, how can you enjoy an episode with 2 real characters, the Doctor and that Monster that hardly posed a threat, because it's as quick as a snail.

>Where were the clues the first time he was sent there? Where? I want to know. As he left them there for himself, they couldn't have been there, so the answer to my question would be, exactly you figured it out, all by yourself, now isn't that nice, nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. And if you say that they were already there, then why, did, the, Doctor, have, to, leave, clues, for, himself? I just do not understand at all, how people can enjoy this episode.

what a pleb

Well nothing on IMDB will ever have a 10/10 average, at least not if many people have seen it, because that would mean literally everyone gives it 10/10.

Ozymandias

Of course, I forgot about rounding. Damn, I should really watch Breaking Bad one of these days.

>Honestly, personally there's nothing more I'd want right now than to sit in on a writer's room.
How old are you? If it's not too late, go to a university with an industry-focused creative writing program. That makes everything a million times easier.

If it is too late, then you have to teach yourself everything you would have learned, force yourself to take on writing workshops, figure out how to get yourself an agent, then (since you will be the lowest priority for a newbie agent) do most of the agent's work for them.

My favorite trick is probably no longer relevant, but just in case: Hang out with writers to get all the gossip before it gets to the trade mags. If a show just got renewed unexpectedly, or, even better, uncanceled after being canceled, they'll have vacancies, so have your agent send your spec script over.

>Where were the clues the first time he was sent there? Where? I want to know. As he left them there for himself, they couldn't have been there, so the answer to my question would be, exactly you figured it out, all by yourself, now isn't that nice, nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. And if you say that they were already there, then why, did, the, Doctor, have, to, leave, clues, for, himself? I just do not understand at all, how people can enjoy this episode.
That's a good point tho

>How old are you? If it's not too late, go to a university with an industry-focused creative writing program.
I'm 24, but I start Uni in 2 days and I'm majoring in creative writing and TV/film. So I'm doing it, even if I am a bit late.

I think one of my country's broadcasting companies accepts interns, provided they're studying. And I could always try to copy Dollard's path, Neighbours does still accept interns, just not as many/often as they used to. I think she was 25 when she started there, not sure.

>I think one of my country's broadcasting companies accepts interns, provided they're studying.
If it's anything like the US, an industry-focused writing program will help get you those internship positions, which makes a huge difference.

He didn't solve it the first time he went there. When we first see the diamond wall, it was one of the first times he made it there. The wall appeared untouched. He spent the first couple thousand years dying before he reached the wall. Gradually as he made more progress through the castle, he left more and more clues to himself, until he developed enough clues to make it to the wall on each loop. The first loop that the viewer sees is 7000 years into the future, when the Doctor had reached the wall only a couple of times.

Why was I reminded of this?
youtube.com/watch?v=5j6m5qwTCtI

Level 100: fanwank God.

How does McGann do his hair?

It is DNA sequencing. His brother (another Doctor) is the same

I like the idea of Past Doctor books but I always felt during the wilderness years they missed out on their potential. They might have been a range on paper, but in the end they were just a loose collection of stand-alone stories, very little continuity in-between.
I know there was a bit of a limit on what they can do, like they can't just end a story on Susan dying or whatever, but there's still so much else that they could have done. Introduce new companions, recurring characters (I'm thinking along the lines of Kadiatu, Sabbath or Iris Wildthyme), recurring locations or make other temporary changes to the status quo to be explored over the course of a few books.
Big Finish did it better, but even there they never quite hit the right balance I think.

I don't get why people don't understand this.

The 1st few loops could've each lasted hundreds of years, as he gradually sussed out how the castle worked, and what clues would survive the room resets long enough for his future loops' selves to find.

Then, once everything is set up, the cycle goes:

on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on......

...

Those poor people. I can smell him from here.

Is there an official way to watch Loose Cannon recons and does every episode that has at least one missing episode have a Loose Cannon recon? I thought they would have put some on Lost in Time DVD

>Is there an official way to watch Loose Cannon recons
Someone claiming to represent Loose Cannon has posted them on DailyMotion at dailymotion.com/DavidAgnew and nobody's filed a DMCA complaint. Is that official enough?

As far as I know, they're no longer shipping videotapes, and their website is dead. And it was always sort of a borderline case—they didn't really have a license for what they were doing, but the BBC not only let them do it but sometimes helped them out, and of course some of them eventually went to work doing the official BBC recons (with Derek actually being in charge of them).

>does every episode that has at least one missing episode have a Loose Cannon recon?
I'm not actually sure. At one point they announced that after finishing Marco Polo they'd be up to 39 out of the 44 stories with missing episodes, but since there are only around 30 stories with missing episodes now, maybe they happen to have all 30? You'd have to check the list one by one.

Oh cool thanks! I'll probably download them just in case.

>You'd have to check the list one by one.
I just wrote a Python script to scrape the two pages off TDC and compare, and… yeah, there are 26 stories with missing episodes, and all 26 have LC recons (plus 14 more that are not missing).

Also, I realized that I forgot they finished Massacre right before folding and I've never watching their recon for that. Now I have something to watch tomorrow, so thanks for reminding me.

Will do.

>Oh cool thanks! I'll probably download them just in case.
To be honest, the best way to watch them is to pirate them anyway. Whoever put together the 2011 classic-Who megatorrent did a nice job of organizing things so you can see the LC recons and any non-missing episodes interspersed in episode order, then the LC bonus features, then any bonus features from any BBC video release, instead of having to assemble it all yourself.

Of course it's missing the 5 "v2" recons that LC put out after 2011, but it's easier to just do those 5 yourself than all 26.

Is The Space Pirates as bad as it's said to be? I love 2, Jamie and Zoe.

that channel misses a couple of recons though. Tenth Planet 4, Web of Fear 3 and I think one episode of Galaxy 4. One can probably find those elsewhere though

I just realized that it is the same channel I use on YouTube: youtube.com/user/ElDoctorio/videos

>Is The Space Pirates as bad as it's said to be? I love 2, Jamie and Zoe.
I love them too, but from what I remember, except in the middle two episodes, they're entirely separated from the action and only appear in little disconnected sections near the start and/or end of the episode, and they don't have much to do with resolving any of the conflicts.

Ugh, well I'll have to try one day.

>I just realized that it is the same channel I use on YouTube
The YouTube on doesn't claim to be official the way the DailyMotion one does, but the fact that it uses the same username, and that user was registered on both sites years ago… so yeah, probably the same guy.

>that channel misses a couple of recons though. Tenth Planet 4, Web of Fear 3 and I think one episode of Galaxy 4.
I don't know about the others, but the Tenth Planet, I believe that had been on their list of recons to redo (because they were early and crappy, or because better new sources have since been found), and the BBC DVD includes that updated recon in the bonus features (although of course the main tracks use the animated version). If so, I can understand why they wouldn't want to stream it, both financial/legal reasons and artistic ones.

Aha, just found these comments from the YouTube channel:
>LC stopped distributing 10th planet after the BBC made their recon, many years ago. It's old enough that it doesn't have a digital copy like these files are from, and isn't up to par with LC's later work. Unless they end up revisiting it, the BBC recon will be on the upcoming DVD release. Not sure what's up with Moonbase, probably just got skipped.

>I sort of addressed why 10P 4 is probably not being shown: LC stopped distributing it years back, it doesn't have a clean digital copy as it is analog source, it was ambitious for its time but not their best work (it would receive un-warranted youtube criticism that is not needed), and the BBC version is superior (though it used LC as a model).

Ah I see. By the way is the reason that we don't have The Tenth Planet 4 is because Blue Peter or something else used it for the clip of Bill regenerating and never gave it back? I haven't looked into it properly.

Presumably Blue Peter returned it, then it got wiped like the other three. And then the 16mm telerecording transfer negatives for all four got destroyed a few years later. The reason we have episodes 1-3 is that, for some arbitrary reason, prints of those transfers were stashed in the BBC Archives.

>Doctor Who cancelled
>Wilderness Years 2.0
>/who/ starts writing novels
>At the same time, Gareth begins plans to revive Doctor Who
>Gareth, who secretly lurks here, likes /who/'s novel ideas
>Gareth gets the Doctor Who gig from the BBC after a petition campaign
>Huge announcement that Gareth is bringing back DW in 2025, 20 years after the initial return. He is the new Russell T Davies
>Gareth loves /who/ novels so much that he lets some of us write for his era
>Jazz Hands becomes officially canon
>Gareth's politically incorrect scripts draw in millions of viewers
>The show becomes a huge success, but some of Gareth's political scripts become contentious
>The show is fun, the kids love the new Doctor
>Every 2nd episode is written by "Anonymous"
>New golden age

Do you /who/ take Jenna Coleman to be your lawful wedded waifu, as long as you both shall splinkpost?