Hey everyone, what do you think about the situation of Catalonia fighting for the independence ?

Hey everyone, what do you think about the situation of Catalonia fighting for the independence ?

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Well, I don't really know anything about Catalonia or if it's justified. I only see potential conflicts.
Short rundown?

What do WE think?

What do YOU think, this is what it's all about. If you're Catalan, what tf did the Castilians do to you, raised you on spikes, ethnic cleansed you, or what? Last time I checked Spain respected cultural and regional rights.

If you're Spaniard and they feel like you're dragging them down, why don't you let them fuck off and behave like you can't live without them? The Catalans want to stay in the EU and Schengen, it's not like they're going to check you for passports if you go to Barcelona.

free Transylvania you ulgy rromanian

>fighting for the independence
what "fighting" are they exactly doing?

waving flags, marches of protest and tv interviews.

This fight against oppression includes neither fighting nor oppression.
Catalans live better than the average Spaniard and aren't suffering at all to justify any sort of revolution.

Transylvania is full of Romanians. If you're talking about the Hungarian infested parts, I'm all for letting them go.

Should France grant independence to Normandy if every muzzie in France moved to Normandy and started demanding independence?
Unless Spain occupied Catalonia then you don't have much of an argument. "We don't like the rest of Spain anymore" is not an argument.

Let the people of Walachia go you tyrant

I would love to see Catalonia declaring independence.

i believe every distinct nationality of people has a right to have their own country
wait no

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo
USA supported the muzzies in Kosovo and other countries followed.

What do you think about Scottish independence then?

Catalans aren't Spaniards, they deserve their own homecountry.

>Should France grant independence to Normandy if every muzzie in France moved to Normandy and started demanding independence?
Yes. This is why the whole point is not moving that many muzzies into Normandy. This also explains the succes of modern France as a nation-state: the extermination of regional identities.

I'm on the fence at the moment but I'm leaning towards no. The clay belongs to all spaniards not just those that happen to live there now. If the catalans want to leave with the clay they should get the approval of the majority of spaniards.

doesn't seem like a good idea to me, it sounds like unconstitutional (I imagine) and would probably seriously harm the remainder of Spain and make it as bad poortugal.

This.
I stand for solidarity with, and in complete support of the full independence of my brothers and sisters in Catalonia and Scotland.

Traitorous scum who deserve a bullet

I don't really get it, t b h. Why do Catalonians view themselves as so different from the rest of Spain?

lmao fucking idiot spanitards ant their own EU leftist paraside.

Because they have a different language, very strong local culture, and also they just do. Why do Danes view themselves so differently from the rest of Scandinavia?

Only if they do it without a pussy referendum.

>Why do Danes view themselves so differently from the rest of Scandinavia?

Do they? I don't think the differences are very big.

Viva la Revolucion!

Well they clearly view themselves as different enough that they should have their own country. Why aren't you just a member state part of Germany

I mean, you pretty much all are at this point but at least Denmark have their own currency.

>catalonya was never a country (belonged to Aragon)
>catalonyans live way better than people from Galicia, Exremadura, and most other parts of Spain
>catalonyans pay less taxes than the Madrid they hate so much
they are basically egomaniacs and jews, same old same old

So they do, but I think a Scandinavian Union would be perfectly reasonable if only Sweden would uncuck itself a bit.

>The clay belongs to all spaniards not just those that happen to live there now.
That makes zero sense. How are those on the other side of the peninsula entitled to say what happens in Catalonia.

they sound like south tyroleans with an extra stick up their asses.

I would join there for memes and hype but ultimately would vote no.

>The clay belongs to all spaniards not just those that happen to live there now. If the catalans want to leave with the clay they should get the approval of the majority of spaniards.
Why doesn't this further apply to all of Spain? Why should they get to decide what to do with the clay they live on without first getting the approval of all iberians, or all Europeans? Why should Canada get to do such drastic measures like drilling oil on the clay where they live without getting all north americans onboard first?

I can understand your argument, and on a smaller level, or in an area where people do just happen to live, it does apply. But not in a region with a distinct national character and culture, seperate from the surrounding country, like Catalonia.

As a Bavarian I support such Movements. They encourage us to take the same step.

Because Spain is a sovereign country who has clearly defined borders. iberians are not a country and neither is 'europe'.

sorry pham, we are not in the post-westphalian world anymore

The whole point of an independance movement like this is that the spanish government does not have any legitimacy in it's control over Catalonia. A nationwide referendum just means leaving the question up for the Spanish state to decide, which then puts the matter to a vote.

Then where are we?

As long as the Spanish state is allowed to vote alongside catalonians for independence then there is no problem. Internal matter settled by internal talks. I don't support catalonians taking Spanish clay unilaterally just because they happen to live there at this point. The clay belongs to the state, which represents all spaniards.

The catalonian people aren't just a random mishmash of individuals though. They are a People. A nation unto themselves; people who have inhabited Catalonia for centuries. People who live outside of Catalonia are external entities in this matter. The state of Spain has no legitimate claim to Catalonia. It belongs to the people of Catalonia, and it is for them to elect a government to lead them and represent their interests.

yes please

what are the chances of another civil war

They are a people of shared culture, language, identity etc etc etc. I accept that. They are free to come and go and nurture their own culture and society as they see fit. However, their claim to the land itself I do not recognize because it belongs to the state of Spain which conquered the land. Spain has legitimate
claim over Catalonia because of conquest.

It's all arbitrary really. My line is just drawn on sovereign borders and not intangibles such as culture and language. i don't think it's fair to all spaniards if they don't get a say in what happens to their land that they fought for.

Im all for catalonians independence if they can convince the rest of Spain to let go of their clay. Or the catalonians can revolt and exercise their right to armed insurrection. The choice is theirs. Though I would not support them if they did.

>Spaniards and Spanish-speaking White Latin Americans out!
>Blacks, Arabs and Pakis in!

The state of Catalan nationalism

keep spain united

The news here said the vote isn't binding, Spain won't recognise it, and that polls show it isn't favoured by most Catolonians. It seems to be the mayors pushing it, probably since they want to be governors instead of mayors.

Ive been living here for 10 years now. The special snowflake syndrome is absolutely ridiculous. Kids are brainwashed from a young age by the local government to become nationalistic independentists

See here It's a good thing that Catalonia belongs to Spain. If the mad SJWs in Barcelona get their independence, they are going to flood the country with foreigners and the "Catalan people" will cease to exist.

>muh right of conquest
I didn't realize I was speaking to a murican.

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How are those living on the non-secessionist provinces entitled to decide what happens on the non-secessionist province? Barcelona is the richest and the less secessionist province, yet is constantly swarmed by the poor and rural provinces with people claiming for independence.

[spoiler]Red is where the secessionist parties got a +50% of the votes, and orange where they did not. [/spoiler]

I'm all neutral about whole thing, but I think, as always, nothing will come out of it.

Historical context friendo. That's the way the world worked then. It still works that way today, harder now though, since the world is more integrated now.

Every country today has acquired land by conquest unless they are lucky enough to be the first people ever to set foot on it. Sorry if the idea is unappealing to you but it is what it is.

>and the "Catalan people" will cease to exist.

As if they aren't dying already?

Being part of Spain has forced them to mix with the rest of the country and stop speaking their native tongue. Spanish regulations favor the Castilian language over Catalan. Being part of Spain is killing their culture either way. At least if they were independent they could require migrants learn Catalan.

Not true at all. Probably want to check your news. The seccesionist parties said that they will consider the referendum binding and didn't established any quorum. So if only a 30% of the Catalans vote and they get an 80% of yes (like they did with the last non-binding vote in 2015), they will unilaterally separe.

Also, most polls suggests that Catalonians want to vote, but don't want indepence. Although a lot of those who don't want independence but want to vote would like the vote to be made with an agreement from Madrid. Which is currently impossible with the current Spanish Constitution, since it would involve changing it to a level where a nation-wide referendum is needed. That's why only a nationwide party is pushing for a referendum. The others see it futile to try and fail.

There have been various Civil Wars, but Catalonia has never been 'conquered'. Well, lots of weird episodes happened, including Companys' declaration of independence, but it has been mostly short-lived episodes either rapidly suppressed or with the Catalonians themselves coming back a few days after.

Not really? Catalan has blossomed during the last 40 years. During Franco's regimen it was suppressed, but once democracy was back on and the Generalitat was reinstated, the Catalan became once again the primary language in the schools of Catalonia. If you want to be a public officer there, you need to speak it.

Most Charnegos outside of Barcelona speak it.

It's even funnier when you put pic related and together.

The Catalonia that wants independence because 'Spaniards' are leeching on them are the ones that are taking money from Barcelona.

As a spaniard I understand that ultimately we may have another civil war in which these faggots get owned again and we get another 20 or so years dictatorship.
Suits me. I'll just leave until it's over and then continue to live off the sweat of less fortunate class.

We'll I don't mean offense but you can sugar coat it either way. Spain is the recognized country and catalon being a region within it, not the other way around. In that sense I am using the word conquered.

Sounds like all you care about is the status quo. However it is now, at the time of stability, is how it should be, and any attempt to change that must justify itself, not the other way around.

>Catalans aren't Spaniards, they deserve their own homecountry.
>Have the same two-party system (a christian conservative party and a socialist party)
>One of the biggest corruption scandals of the country
>Barcelona and Madrid are the same politically: the capital is controlled by Podemos (a newly formed leftist party) and the region is controlled by the classical christian conservative party
>Basically make a living from cheap tourism
>Extreme racism against Andalusians
>Football is the main entertainment
>Anime dubs are both shit

>Civil War
Catalonia has no army, their police numbers 17000, they have no fleet and are extremely dependent on commerce and tourism. They are trying their best to not fall into any provocations of the central government, because everyone knows that the moment a violent episode erupts, they will lose any international support that they might have gained in the last few weeks and justify Madrid taking everything from them.

Aragon joined Castilla on their own accord. And the civil wars that we had were not for independence, but to put someone else on the throne (Catalonians and Basques always favored more federalists kings, while the rest of the country favored centralism, but they never fought to leave).

And the actual independence episodes were so short-lived that they are not taken seriously by anyone.

I don't want an old exchange student friend to die so maybe during the Spanish Civil War 2(tm) I'll just join whatever side he's on and either get Spanish citizenship and be the farmer I've always wanted to be, be executed, or get mentally scarred and/or physically maimed for life.

>>Barcelona and Madrid are the same politically: the capital is controlled by Podemos (a newly formed leftist party) and the region is controlled by the classical christian conservative party
Did you not realize we can fact check this?

Conquered does not solely mean by solely by force it can be either through political maneuvering or military campaign.

Ahora Madrid and En Podem Comu are Podemos-lite parties, since Podemos didn't directly participated on the local elections, but fully supported those parties and collaborated directly with them, although they are not strictly inside their structure, they share most of their voters and those parties don't do anything outside of the local elections.

What's your point.

Barcelona en Comú*
Fuck, these guys have so many sub parties that you end up mixing their names.

you're just speaking to an eternal anglo

Ew!

I feel like this picture explains the 'Proces' more than any bullshit reasons about 'historical nation' and 'culture'

>CiU, the conservative nationalist, but not secessionist, party controls Catalonia since the death of Franco
>CiU loses to a leftist coalition the same year, and the coalition remains in power through the worst years of the financial crisis and its wildly criticized
>The Estatut fiasco (2006) happens: CiU, PSC and ERC push for a new fundamental law for the autonomous region that situates Catalonia as a sort of 'associated state' inside of Spain. ERC, the main secessionist party, gets Catalonia recognized as its own state and CiU gets Catalonia having control over all their taxes and land with that
>It gets voted in a referendum and it obviously gets shoot down from Madrid.
>CiU comes back in power in 2010, with a new leader: Arthur Mas (who declared himself openly against independence)
>Catalonia, like the rest of Spain, is forced to cut down a lot of public spending. CiU is mostly blamed for this in Catalonia, while they put the blame on Spain.
>CiU tries to push for a new fiscal agreement that would put Catalonia in similar terms with the Basque Country (basically they get all their taxes for themselves). Again, Madrid ignores this, since things were bad enough to lose all of Catalonia's taxes at the time
>Finally, CiU starts to turn for independence. Lots of things happens in various towns and cities, and the first truly massive Diada (11/9, Catalonia’s national day) in years take place
>After jumping the secessionist boat and pushing a new elections (2 years after the last one) with the objective of getting enough support to get Madrid to agree to a referendum of independence

>CiU fails and loses a considerable chunk of their seats. Some of them jump to ERC and others to ICV (Greens) and CUP (anti-capitalists) who also support independence. PSC, after positioning themselves against this, lose some voters who go to the left-aligned secessionist parties. They try to push for a referendum, but the PP (right-wing conservative party who was in friendly terms with CiU before this) now has the control of the Spanish parliament and completely ignores Catalonian’s claims
>Catalonia (like the rest of Spain) is still eating shit and suffering the loss of thousands of public jobs (teachers and medical staff mostly)
>CiU and the rest of the secessionist party finally get their shit together and do their own vote, not supported by the state, but not actively prosecuted like this one
>In 2014, they get a 37% participation and a 80% victory of the secessionist option, so they decide to promote a new elections
>CiU gets together with ICV and ERC, and create JxSí. They declare that this new elections, and say that if they get a 50+% of the votes, they will declare independence automatically. Basically they treat the 2015 elections as a referendum of independence
>3% scandal finally starts being investigated in 2015. As you can guess, it mostly affects CiU
>Convergencia and Unio finally split in the 2015 elections, Union not sharing the secessionist views any more. Unio was a minority in terms of voters, but still held some relevance in the old Catalan bourgeoisie that CiU had been usually associated with
>They lose like a +20% of their seats, and get only a 39.59 % of the votes. Even if they got together with the CUP, they would only get a 47,80% of the votes.
>But since they got a majority of the seats, and after some really harsh negotiations that ended up with Artur Mas being kicked down from the presidency the night before the deadline to form a new government, they set a date for the referendum in September of 2017

I'm not saying that it's the only factor (as you can see, Madrid shooting down whatever the Catalans wanted is also relevant), but CiU suddenly turning into a secessionist party mostly because they were bleeding out in terms of voters and didn’t want to lose their primacy explains a lot. Yet they have lost the control of the parliament because of that, and now they have keep pushing forward no matter that, even with the threats of prison and economical sanctions (something that pushed lots of members of the government and the party to separate themselves from it in the last few weeks).
It’s funny how in 2011 Artur Mas needed to arrive in helicopter to the parliament because of the protesters and threatened to use the police against them (the Mossos are easily the most violent police in Spain), and now it’s acclaimed by those same people and criticizes Madrid for using the police against him.

...

EL PUEBLO
UNIDO
JAMAS SERÁ VENCIDO

I don't care, it would be neat but I don't think they can legally do anything because of Spain's Constitution. The same reason why states here can't secede.

It can be a fun source of happenings, just check the news in a week.

its an embarrassing example of a country WE WUZZING

First I thought they would just hold their referendum, everyone would ignore it, Catalonia would be mad for a week, and then it would be forgotten.

But Madrid is sending troops and locking up politicians, this is serious shit.

>But Madrid is sending troops and locking up politicians, this is serious shit.
Catalonia already suspending sending taxes early this week because of the referendum, and promised to completely disconnect from the central government if they got a yes.
Of course this time it would be taken more seriously.

>Spanish Nationalists are white
>Catalan independentist are fucking niggers and moors
What did they mean by this?

I really hope they secede, this will steam South of Brazil to secede from the rest of the country.

If South of Brazil secedes, you will have an "European Like"-"Top Tier" country in South America.

Catoluña would be better if it was independent

DéééécaaaaAAAAAALISSE!!!!!!!!!!

Who needs who more?

Mixed feelings.

At the same time, I'm for Catalonian independance (like basque, scottish or Corsican one) but I don't want to see Spain getting even weaker.

Spain and Italy are the only hopes for the EU now that France have fallen

I stand with Catalonians. I hope they will get independent from the swarthy moors.

If it ever becomes independent, it would make Swedes look that they're not that bad. It's pretty much the reason why Swedes in Sup Forums support it.

> Cataluña independiente

Encontra

> abolición de los títulos de nobleza (destitución del rey) y formación de una República Española con carácter federativo (no ese meme de las comunidades autónomas)

A favor.


Tienen todo para ser federación, son un país relativamente pequeño en el cual no deben cubrir grandes distancias, fácil de dividir por estados federales.

Para mi los catalanes y su independencia solo tiene una descripción: "special-snowflakes"

pónganse los pantalones y denle una patada en el culo a la realeza de una vez, quiten a ese engendro que le debe su vida actual a franco.

España no está lista para eso en mi opinión. Siempre que ha habido una república ha acabado en desastre. Además de que luego tenemos a politicos que nos roban todo el rato.
La cerecita sobre el pastel es que el movimiento republicano esta mayoritariamente compuesto por SJWs.

I support Catalonian independence! An entirely different people with their own language and culture, who's region is nothing by a cash cow for Madrid. I say let them go and be free! The same goes for Bayern, Texas, Scotland, Wales and Tyrol

Pues si el objetivo es evitar tanta corrupción, metan un estado republicano unitario, de carácter presidencialista reforzado, con división por regiones con representante del poder ejecutivo en cada región.

Si cada región llora por financiamiento a su región, se puede hacer que una parte de lo producido por la región vaya directamente a esta para la inversión, dejando un % para la manutención de los servicios públicos.

No se, hay tantas soluciones que los dejan mejor parados, de vez en cuando pienso que los españoles son masoquistas. Otra cosa, prefiero un estado republicano que me de garantías de unidad y reconocimiento de las distintas etnias o culturas dentro de un país a un chupa sangre hijito de franco, aunque me tenga que mamar a los sjw de turno.

Ademas, no se que tanta joda le ponen con los "sjw", mientras estos no caigan en ridiculos es mejor tenerlos, puesto que producen retro-alimentación o "feedback" para la la evaluación pre-y post de las políticas públicas, la presión social ayuda a los mismos "policy makers" para tomar mejores decisiones.

Estoy de acuerdo en verdad. Lo que pasa es que no creo que el movimiento republicano de aquí no como el que tu dices. No solo SJWs lo apoyan sino literal comunistas que admiran a Maduro.
Si hubiera un partido político para una república federal normal y de ninguna ideología extremista que acabe con toda esta basura que nos esta pasando, lo votaría en 6 microsegundos. El problema es que tal partido no existe. Yo conozco gente republicana moderada pero ellos dicen que al ver la idea de república que la gente dice en la calle preferirían que nada cambiase.
Este país tiene un problema a la hora de los tipos de gobierno. Básicamente la gente piensa República = socialismo de cualquier tipo.

Que el movimiento republicano como tu dices no existe aquí*

>Unlike the Scots who were able to get the UK government to agree to their referendums, the Catalans are sperging out and forcing a vote on a UDI without their host country agreeing to it first

Go Madrid.

idk about whats going on but from my pov it seems that spain is going thru a crisis and and catalans, beign the ones in a better situation, dont wanna help the rest, like how rats are the first to leave the ship when it sinks
am i wrong or right?

Yo te soy sincero, soy social-democrata, pero así como lo soy (y por ende socialista) pero como podrás notar en mis anteriores comentarios, creo que decantaras mi pensamiento.

Detesto todo uso de la violencia como obtención del poder y cualquier intento de rasguñas al "leviathan" (estado), apoyo el uso de la participación ciudadana en la elección de los gobernantes, la unidad y la paz social, el mantenimiento del "status quos" siempre y cuando este sea positivo para las personas, la llegada a consenso por las distintas partes participantes en la política nacional, con el fin de que todas las partes sean escuchadas.
Si quieren cambiar la imagen de lo que es una república de carácter democrática deben hacer trabajo de calle, concientización de la población sobre este tipos de temas que son de interés público. En lo persona, me hago a la idea que lo que entiende el español de a pie por república es a aquellas "repúblicas unipartidistas" como lo es China o aquellas dictaduras unipartidistas típicas de la guerra fría o tambien de extrema derecha como la Alemania nazi ¿no?

of course an anglo would side with tyrants

I remember some Anglos having a bit of a disliking for tyrants.

the only good anglos are the americans

the cucked ones all came here and invaded my province

Phony movement propped up by the R*ssians. Keep Spain together!