Your country

>your country
>have you seen Ken Burn's Vietnam War?

just watched the whole series. very powerful imo, literally a conflict like no other last century. the amount of history actually surprises me every episode.

it blows my mind that:
>an OSS officer was ho chi minh's right hand when he announced independence
>french were hated by everybody especially the catholics and monarchists they tried to befriend, yet still wanted control
>the war was already quite intense by 1960s, well organized units were infilitrated already and had superb unit tactics/training without any artillery or air support
>ho chi minh was sidelined and not the actual leader since 1950s, and wanted peace since 1964
>kennedy was in vietnam travelling while they were fighting the french
>LBJ and mcnamara thought they'd lose in 1965, less than a year after american ground troops were there, vietnam situation utterly fucked mcnamara(defense secretary)/LBJ and ended their careers
>westmoreland (US general) was a retard who kept escalating the war

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It's fantastically done and very comfy, but I'm only on episode 6.

If it's as good as The War I will

its even better. episode 1 and 2 made me realize how big of an asshole france was and probably convinced millions of americans the french were greedy and shitty people responsible for everything wrong.

america was certainly not good but france basically was the absolute villain after WW2.

> the french were greedy and shitty people responsible for everything wrong.

Britain has always been the just and kind ruler, France has always been the orcs led by sauron

this is true. it amazes me that brits have let go of their people without a fight except for the irish and americans of course.

france had to get knocked around a few times to get the message.

yup, it lays it pretty strongly that france is the villain when ho chi minh and the OSS guys he was friends with march into hanoi and declare independence using america's declaration of independence lol.

french were also singlehandedly portrayed as cowards and villains who needed brits and americans to fight for them and pay them.

Sounds interesting OP , I'll check it out.

>french were also singlehandedly portrayed as cowards and villains who needed brits and americans to fight for them and pay them.

Not really. The French were fighting after WW2 where they had to reoccupy Vietnam so it isn't surprising that they were unable to hold on without British or American help. Keep in mind you're talking about a France that was completely burnt out and broke by WW2 when the Americans who were economically prosperous and had a much larger army also couldn't win the war. Also keep in mind that this shit was happening during a larger period of decolonization where commies were funding all sorts of anti-colonial groups in Africa and Asia

Bump, as always.

the documentary goes into it how the french were targetting and undermining british/americans because they wanted direct colonial rule immediately and thought that it was their property.

the french landed 100,000 people their anyways and hired wehrmacht mercenaries to fight for them. this was also late 1940s before algeria's war and elsewhere.

oh, fuck off

>and hired wehrmacht mercenaries to fight for them.

So? You also had support from non-viet commies.

yeah but they didn't fight, they just advised and gave weapons. also you had to:

>Bringing your algerian pets to fight in the war
>unleash your algerian pets to rape and pillage
>exact same tactic used in italy in WW2

glad the algerians threw you out too desu.

yea, those animals are good at killing gooks, I suppose

Plus I'm glad as well they got their independence : they don't deserve our attention.

>algerians
>absolute shit at battle
>used to clear out villages full of women and children

nah, the german mercenaries were good fighters alongside the ethnic minorities/hill people in indochina you paid.

french battle plan went like this -> have foreign legion/colonials die -> afterwards suicide or surrender like at dien bien phu.

yea, sure, the only soldier who fought and died were Indochinese and kraut mercenaries and the only times we actually fought, we lost or we surrendered

Of course

Only seen a few parts, will probably watch as much as I can this weekend. Been trying to read up more on the war recently since most of our education glosses over it and nobody wants to ask vets because of the "scary Nam vet" stereotype.

At this point its still the most divisive war in our history and its hard to bring it up in conversation since there's basically two viewpoints on the war and a lot of hearsay floating around.

To the Frenchies credit when De Lattre was present he kicked some serious ass. However, he wasn't there long enough to secure a stable position. FFL, French Paras, and Riverine units tended to fight pretty hard though they did not have anywhere near the kind of logistical support that we had during our war.

>it's a muh heritage yellow monkey episode

Have you ever set foot in vietnam you dumb leaf?

Roger Vandenberghe was also a fucking beast, tb h

>ho chi minh was sidelined and not the actual leader since 1950s, and wanted peace since 1964
If by "not actual leader" you meant like Mao and not actively involved in all matters of state when he was old, then yes. He still was the supreme leader though and you are delusional if you don't think so.
If by "wanted peace" you meant, "communists in control of South Vietnam with eventual unification within a few years".

Also I'll try and bump with some of the more interesting stuff in my Nam folder. Starting with some ROK soldiers in Vietnam. South Korea would rotate about 300,000 soldiers to Vietnam including army and marine units, and according to most accounts they were extremely good fighters and also pretty brutal. I haven't found a lot of reading material for the ROK's involvement in Vietnam however the book Chickenhawk (imo a must read for anyone interested in the war, autobiographical account of a huey pilot) mentions the author's interactions with them.
Never heard of him, could you give me a quick rundown?
HCM was increasingly sidelined by the mid-late war period by a faction in the VCP lead by Le Duan, who was a hardcore Marxist-Leninist. If HCM had survived the war things may have turned out very differently for post-war Vietnam. Its actually kind of disgusting how the VCP treated HCM after he died, they erected statues of him everywhere and interred him in an ugly mausoleum when he specifically asked for that not to happen when he passed.

And unfortunately I'm going to have to transition to my phone for a bit. Aussie M60 gunner. Shitposting aside the Aussie/NZ contingent in Vietnam kicked a lot of ass.

...

>Britain has always been the just and kind ruler,
Literally every war Britian has fought from 1499 - 1945 was purely for money (global trade dominance) and power (balance of power with Britain as #1)

Literally no other reason. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me a single war they took part in during that period to protect their people.

i'd say the soviet union was the clear villian but france was definitely grima wormtongue

>HCM was increasingly sidelined by the mid-late war period by a faction in the VCP lead by Le Duan
[Citation needed]

He was dying in 1966-1968 and could barely speak. HCM was a full blown Marxist-Leninst Communist who supported the Vietnam war against the USA and demanded a unified Vietnam.

The fact he handed over the power to his hardcore marxist allies in 1965-1966 does not change who he was or what he stood for.

Best character coming through

>baby first history about Vietnam War
I lel, but well it nice was sometimes to see a little bit of truth about what is Vietnam War actually about.

>HCM was a full blown Marxist-Leninst Communist who supported the Vietnam war against the USA and demanded a unified Vietnam.
But there are still many idiots like this one.

Hahaha murrica and frogs got BTFO. Based Vietnam.

>But there are still many idiots like this one.

Where was I wrong? Should I trust the propaganda-filled brain of a HCM Viet?

I remenber last time we have a thread about Vietnam in Sup Forums on 2/9, Vietnam independent day.

There is a mega cuck Vietnam poster talk about how great Vietnam could be if we're still a France colony.

I rage so much.

>propaganda-filled brain of a HCM Viet
Yep, just like that, you're idiots. No point in the debate because everything against your bias mainstream media will just 'propaganda' right?

Do you even fucking speak Vietnamese? No right? Totally your information only comes from the English source. That already make your point of view weaker and more narrow than mine.
I can read both Vietnamese and English, but not you. So please Mr American, please tell me about what I don't know about my country.

Thats not Giap

Your country is a total shithole ruled by an inspt and corrupt Vietnamese COMMUNIST Party.

You guys are taught bullshit propaganda your entire lives and are practically forced to worship Ho.

Historical consensus in the West and Vietnam is that Ho was a devout Marxist-Leninist who saw independence as the first priority and communism as the second.

Instead of accusing me, someone who can actually read sources that aren't censored, of being stupid... How about you point out where I am wrong?

He was a commie, but much more level-headed than many other communist leaders of the time.
>the fact that he handed over
There was no handover, Le Duan and his guys sidelined him over time. HCM was trying to prevent this but was in failing health.

Just as Mao was a level-headed communist in the 1940's-1950's, but then went insane maoist and lead a revolution against his own system.

Ho Chi Minh was the architect of the mass land reform/collectivization campaigns of the 1950's in North Vietnam, alongside the establishment of the Viet Cong and imprisonment of hundreds of thousands.

He was a Marxist-Leninist communist and believed that was the best way to develop Vietnam and achieve independence. Not a Maoist.

Oh, and he did hand over power in 1960 and 1965. The 1965 handover was when he established the system of collective rule. Something that did not exist 1954-1960.
The "sidelining" occurred from 1965-1969.

Funny before the enlist in the HCM army, Giap was a history teacher, a geography teacher too. He obsessed about Napoleon achievement and fluent in French. He remenber every detail about any battle in Napoleon campaign, to the point he could draw a battle map, deployment in the battle, event,... in blackboard.

>Instead of accusing me, someone who can actually read sources that aren't censored, of being stupid... How about you point out where I am wrong?
Yep, every English source is uncensored, no-bias, totally righteous and holy. Anything come from Vietnamese source is bias, 'bullshit propaganda'. Oh, is that how a monolingual like you keep delusion yourself that why I said there no point in debate here.
Where do you think I get my information from? Only from Vietnamese source or both Vietnamese and English to come up with my own conclusion?
You're full of shit, think you're more holy and righteous than anyone white you're a fucking American, a most self-centred. arrogant in the world.

I'm aware of the land reform programs and how they went very badly. When I say level-headed commie it doesn't mean I condone communism. However, the situation in Vietnam was absolutely shitty and the southern governments were by and large run by hopelessly corrupt morons. If there was a decent southern leader then I would reconsider but HCM was probably the lesser evil in this situation. I'm well aware of the fact that he'd been a longtime marxist for decades before the war, the fact doesn't endear itself to me.
>Not a maoist
When did I say he was a Maoist?

South Vietnam, even with all the Viet Cong and NV invasions, was a better place than NV where the economy had collapsed and they were indebted to China/SU in the billions.
If HCM had lived into the 1980's, I doubt the end result would've been much different. "Good" and "bad" leaders are mostly determined by the events around them. Southern leaders were the puppets of the USA, while Northern leaders answered to the SU.

If South Vietnam had united Vietnam, it'd be a much better place. Shitty leaders or not.

>maoist
I wrote that because too many people confuse Marxist-Leninist Communism for Maoism. I generally hear the "he wasn't communist!" argument from people who think Maoism or Stalinism is the only kind of Communism.

>If South Vietnam had united Vietnam, it'd be a much better place. Shitty leaders or not.
Ah, I can see it now, you're an SV refugee. Lel. A corrupted Buddhist oppressing but better than communist right?

who cares

>I doubt the end would've been much different
You are mentally retarded. He would not have condoned the economic shit that the post-war VCP was doing and probably would've been able to smooth things out a lot more on the international stage. You have no idea how much the VCP leadership changed during the duration of the war or the possible what-ifs if said changes didn't happen.
>South Vietnam
Was better in certain areas and for certain people, but that really wasn't the case for the general population. Maybe if we had pulled a South Korea living standards would've gone up over time but that would mean two permanent troop deployments overseas during a time when we needed the bulk of our forces in Western Europe.
>Shitty leaders or not
These were exceptionally shitty leaders.

Nigga you don't understand how we could've leveraged shit if we had not entered the war or had pulled out during Kennedy's presidency. To re-emphasize, I'm well fucking aware that HCM was a communist. I would also like to re-iterate that I do not fucking like commies. However, the situation in Vietnam at the time was utterly fucked by the time we came on the scene and letting the North re-unify early under HCM while he still held the reins of power might've been better for our geopolitical aims in the region. Yes, the VCP was dedicated to the cause of Marxist-Leninism, but there were always indications that establishing a friendly rapport might be able to sway their relationship with the combloc. Having a quasi-independent communist nation in the region might've been a boon, and help us in the goal of dividing the combloc.

You need to play the long game in stamping out communism, and keeping the worldwide movement separated is key.

>Nigga you don't understand how we could've leveraged shit if we had not entered the war or had pulled out during Kennedy's presidency. To re-emphasize, I'm well fucking aware that HCM was a communist. I would also like to re-iterate that I do not fucking like commies. However, the situation in Vietnam at the time was utterly fucked by the time we came on the scene and letting the North re-unify early under HCM while he still held the reins of power might've been better for our geopolitical aims in the region. Yes, the VCP was dedicated to the cause of Marxist-Leninism, but there were always indications that establishing a friendly rapport might be able to sway their relationship with the combloc. Having a quasi-independent communist nation in the region might've been a boon, and help us in the goal of dividing the combloc.
This one gets it. Right now, you're American. Do you think you know what a Vietnamese, thousand of thousand miles away from the USA, was thinking right now? Much less than 50 years ago?

I want to make a strong claim: That's Vietnamese or majority Vietnamese always value as a nationalist before any kind of ideology.

Just to make sure, I'm
Were you directing the questions at me or the other guy?

Alright about to head off for bed, reconfirming that I'm the guy here
Going to sage this post because I wish to prolong the time before shitposters fill it up. I have wanted to ask a Vietnamese person this question.

Why is your nation so eager to re-establish ties between us? Why does it seem like your general populace (at least according to stats/surveys, which can be quite off) seem to have a positive opinion of us? We bombed the everloving shit out of your country for over a decade, never paid you any reparations, continued to fuck with you for the remainder of the Cold War, didn't even try to re-establish ties until the 90's, and yet your country seems eager to be friendly with us once again. Any other country would probably hate our guts for a long time.
>inb4 Japan and Germany
We militarily occupied them for a very long time (and we still have bases in both).

>You guys are taught bullshit propaganda your entire lives and are practically forced to worship Ho.
absolutely correct I have to kneel down towards Hanoi every 2 hours or the police will beat me up and send me and my family to reeducation camps
Jesting aside, if you actually believe that sources from USA and South Vietnamese refugees are not censored and warped in some ways, you are just as gullible as some of the idiots in my country who eat up everything from the West

>Why is your nation so eager to re-establish ties between us?
Because we don't want to be on the same side with China.
Also, we admire any country that is developed and the textbooks here cover American antiwar protests so people generally have a better view on America.

yes.
all i got from it is that jungle gooks are like roaches who have absolutely no regard for the lives of their fellow countrymen. should have dropped even more napalm to completly incinerate their entire race. fucking subhuman slants

I see (sleep is not very forthcoming, however this is genuinely my last post for a bit).
>Because we don't want to be on the same side with China.
That's it? Also
>cover American antiwar protests
Did the books also mention how most of the hippies grew out of it after a while and that we went massively conservative in the late 70's-80's and still are today? Or that Jane Fonda is considered a traitor by most veterans? We're still very divided about the war, and not everyone fell into the peacenik camp. Are there any popular conceptions of Americans in your country?

the books only mentions the protests at that time to make a point that even some Americans doesn't want this war to drag on.
>Are there any popular conceptions of Americans in your country?
the most popular would be "the American dream". Not many stereotypes, though, because we have little contact with foreigners.