I'm pretty firmly atheist, and have been for a long time. Recently I had a conversation with my father...

I'm pretty firmly atheist, and have been for a long time. Recently I had a conversation with my father, and I wonder if its such a good idea to be convincing people not to be religious. The convo went like this

>But user, if theres no heaven, what happens when you die?
>IDK dad. No one knows. Even the bible says, "The living know of death, but the dead know nothing." The universe will recycle your matter and energy, but as far as your consciousness or whatever goes, it just doesnt exist anymore. Its probably a similar feeling to the billions of years before you were born and had no consciousness.
>IDK user, that sounds really scary, doesnt it?

It was that moment I paused, and saw his face. He wasn't trying to make me a believer anymore. I saw real fear in his face--the fear of a man who presumed he had all lifes answers, and just realized that maybe his answers were wrong. The fear of a man who was for the first time giving serious thought to his mortality. I think I may have hit to hard? I said all I could say really

>well, I imagine your fear will probably be gone too

Are there just some people who will never be capable of handling the red pill? Is it wrong to make them try and swallow it?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=3kHGg9-gI40
youtu.be/QuPsxFklxaw
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Why does it even bother humans?
Dogs and Deers and even intelligent primates go on living without giving any consideration to their mortality.

Yet humans are intensely haunted by the thought of their conscious being obliterated.

Sin death and damnation entered the world because Man chose those things. God never intended death to be a part of the equation. This is why it's so upsetting to us.

You mistook his emotion, he was scared for you.

And no, when you try to convince people to be irreligious you're simply seeking approval of your own views and to justify them via convincing someone else, your father in this case which has all sorts of implications.

Also, your conversation was shallow. Atheists think they're being deep with this shit, but like all nihilists their aesthetic is poor. It's always shit art, shit arguments, shit life outlook, shit idea of virtue, atheism could be considered shit just out of what it does for people.

Atheism is shit precisely because of what it churns out. Man needs something above him. Worshipping yourself leads to stagnation, loss of virtue and nihilism. Even when he accomplishes something there will be no greater meaning behind it. Just another hunk of temporary junk that will be lost to the ages.

Woah buddy, thats a lot of implications. My father is a good guy and we have a good relationship. Its just a topic to talk about occasionally.

>atheism could be considered shit just out of what it does for people
truth doesn't care about your feelings
sure I could just deceive myself, make myself pick some religion to start believing in, but that doesn't change the fact that nobody actually knows the truth. And the fact is most likely death is just the same as the billions or perhaps infinite amount of time you've just never been alive.

No one is trying to be deep or edgy, they've just come to accept that fact. And most people don't ever go around fucking pushing this shit point of view on others it's always other cunts starting arguments or ridiculing you for "not accepting Jesus" or whatever the fuck religion they're part of.

don't pretend that you know the truth.

I never said that
are you dumb?

>worshipping yourself

If I "worshipped" anything, I wouldnt be an atheist, would I you fucking moron?

More so some source of mysticism or unknowable.

OP is just a nihilist.

You asked the question of it's a good idea to convince people not to be religious. I answered.

Religious people only preach when they're told evangelism is their duty, otherwise it's the same deal and they only preach to justify their own beliefs. You have no evangelism imperative so it's easily assumed it's pure self justification for you.

Accept your weakeness of (a lack of) faith.

Some beliefs are more useful than others, pragmatism and optimistic beliefs are useful in themselves. Be slightly more American and research William James.

And no, atheists often prove to be the worst shit pushers. Just shut the fuck up about your lack of belief, you think it demonstrates intelligence but the shit arguments I regularly hear from atheists prove otherwise.

Young religious people rarely talk about religion because the result is always unpleasant, there's always a militant atheist in the room. Your family will talk about religion only because they're you're family and honestly think they're helping you.

Atheists just can't shut up.

This too.

See >truth doesn't care
>just deceive myself
>The fact is most likely death
Looks like you actually believe you know the truth to me.

some people always will need a higher authority. These are the types of people that if given power all of a sudden go on a rampage or immediately start snuffing out those they deem as a threat/competition

Religion (Islam specifically) is going to be the end of the world. If there's one catastrophic flaw about humans it's the need to have a religion. Specifically because muslims are going to destroy the world once they take over Europe.

the irony

Humanity sealed it's fate when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Jesus is the way out of our own destruction.

The possibility of hell is probably 1E+99999 times scarier.
>Civilization getting killed by Muslims.
>Not sure if righteous to defend myself.
>Not sure if righteous to do nothing and let my children die.
>trollymoraldillema.jpeg
>Meanwhile "My family's not home, baaabe."
>Wud2do fugg

Atheists are filth. Fucking monkeys. Put a banana in your ass and shut up.

...

>your weakness of faith

Faith is believing in things that cant be proven. Like ghosts or magic for instance.

Im okay with the idea of someone performing religious rituals for their own fulfillment or the bettering of society, but I guess it just all seems too good to be true

>"I don't worship anything!"
>obsesses over media, celebrities, extremely prideful

>And no, atheists often prove to be the worst shit pushers. Just shut the fuck up about your lack of belief, you think it demonstrates intelligence but the shit arguments I regularly hear from atheists prove otherwise.

This. I've literally never had a christfag preach at me but when I was in college people would just not shut the fuck up about how they think religion is stupid and they're so smart and blah blah blah. Nobody fucking cares.

If you're an atheist, fine I don't give a shit.
If you're religious, fine I don't give a shit.

Just shut the fuck up about it and don't bother me.

...

...

>Just shut the fuck up about your lack of belief
believe me I don't fucking like atheists that push their belief any more than other religions that push their own brand of pudding. However when people try saying their belief is true and I'm damned to their own religion's hell or whatever that barrier breaks and I'd be glad to ruin their day with logic.

>truth doesn't care
>just deceive myself
>The fact is most likely death
>Looks like you actually believe you know the truth to me.
Knowing that most likely everyone is just spouting bullshit because no one knows the truth? Yeah if you'd like to consider that knowing the truth in the same context. But it's not, knowing that you or probably everyone doesn't know is not the same thing as someone saying there actually is X Y or Z deity(s).

...

Omitted Variable Bias.

...

Woah buddy, watch your mouth

>obsessed with media/celebrities

If you held a gun to my head, I dont know if I could name 10 celebrities. As far as media goes, I don't think I've turned on a television in...4? 5 months?

>prideful

Ive actually been described as shy

Can you respond to any of my points without making untrue assumptions?

...

Good goyim. Atheism is not just a meme.

...

omitted variable bias.

you'd be terrified too if you just realized your son was retarded

hell isn't something you're "saved" from unless you really love god.

Do you honestly think spending eternity with a god you don't love wouldn't be hell?

youtube.com/watch?v=3kHGg9-gI40

...

See

If Im retarded, then where does that put religious folks?

Did you actually misquote me by removing the text in the brackets and then use that omission as a source of inconsistency in my post?

Wow, that's intellectual dishonesty I'd expect from an atheist.

>atheist .. belief
>religions .. pudding
Another brilliant atheist argument.

>ruin their day with logic
Classic atheist intelligence signalling. Look at me, I'm smart!

>probably everyone doesn't know
I don't claim to know for certain, that would be insanity and essentially halt the discussion, which isn't very pragmatic.

I do think there's a lot of ideas you can cherry pick from Christian theology and even Hindu theology which pose some very good arguments, but to be honest I've found atheists in general are only willing to contend with arguments they've heard before. They need their canned responses.

This is exactly the intelligence signalling thing, just because you can point at intelligent atheists does not mean you're more intelligent for being an atheist. Like it or not intelligent theists still exist.

Enjoy your bias, it helps your ridiculousness.

LADS CAN WE GET SOME HELP >

Another ignorant christian claiming shit without proof.

What a fucking suprise.

>Like it or not intelligent theists still exist.
Like it or not, intelligent niggers exist

>Enjoy your bias, it helps your ridiculousness.
>Relax around blacks, there are good ones out there!

What worth are your words? Whether a man fears to face the unknown or whether he faces his fate with a stoic heart makes no difference. Destruction and peace, nationalism and globalism, Muslim and Jew, are all equal under the knowledge that all is vanity. We are but complex organic chemical reactions. Our souls are worth nothing. Eating from the tree of knowledge brings us no closer to salvation. To free ourselves from the shackles and step forth from the cave is to find ourselves not staring at the sun and illuminating the mysteries of life, it leaves us abandoned in a dead and empty universe. Atheism, nihilism, absurdism and the rest have no purpose to proliferate themselves. You tell other to join you in the light, and offer them nothing when they get there. You reveal to them the light never existed. And whether it did or not would mean nothing. It would simply be arbitrary. I would rather humans live and die as dumb animals then as wasted machines that have analyzed there own programming and realized that there existence were futile.

>intellectual dishonesty

Green text is supposed to be a more simple version of what was original said. Do you know how Sup Forums works? Are you old enough to be on this website? Do you realize that when you put the parenthesis (not "brackets") back, it doesnt change my point at all?

GDP per capita' explains' 80% of the variation in IQ. Far better than religiosity.

>but that doesn't change the fact that nobody actually knows the truth.

>don't pretend that you know the truth.

You are fucking stupid. Absolutely fucking stupid.

Its ok to be afraid, its ok to let them believe you dont have to force anything on anyone.

Any reason or are you going to just fling poo

That implies that I don't know the truth. Those who don't are culpably ignorant.
You are the blind fool, not me.

>hit too hard
Atheists do this all the fucking time. You lot are just like a fundamental zealot on a mission to convert the "poor ignorant unbelievers".

Arrogant, patronizing, firmly believing you are absolutely right no matter what and shitting on anyone who believes different. In fact I could argue you are worse because even the Mormons that go door to door wish me a nice day after I tell them I'm not interested

What is the truth

That pic sounds like how leftists unironically describe ISIS and "moderate" Muslims.

In all my years of going into this subject, the most common argument I hear is:
>Well if God doesn't exist then there are no consequences for your actions, so why shouldn't we all just lie, rape, kill, and steal shit as much as we want?

Does that answer your question?

No actual argument?

Ok. Have a nice day.

The difference is there isn't a culture of the anti intellectuality amongst the religious. For all we know the higher rates of atheism in the better educated gen x and y are an extraneous variable against the baby boomers who are less educated and more religious.

Correlation and causation faggot.

Nice non sequitur with the black argument though, made me reply.

You're still a fallacious faggot.

You literally omitted the entire quote to better support your argument about faith being positive belief in things, when it's clear I already anticipated that in the first place by using brackets.

If I have to spell it out, you're not actually worth my time.

Lol autism. You do realize god is just believe ing in being mortal right? No one who is a believer is scared of dying.

I didn't come to make an argument you arrogant twat I was answering OPs question

Nah. Im not into the whole, "internet activism," thing. Its kind of gay. Ive shared my perspective with muslims IRL tho

Are you a Christian?

Occam's razor retard, you only invoke this correlation is not causation double standard when it benefits you. Face it, people are getting more intelligent and your old theism is dying old man!

If you think you live your life without faith, you're sorely mistaken.

Unless you personally empirically validate everything you assume to be fact yourself, which is impossible.

>but to be honest I've found atheists in general are only willing to contend with arguments they've heard before. They need their canned responses.
Literally the same rhetoric can be said for any group or idea even yours. Funny how you think your flavor...
>religions .. pudding
>Another brilliant atheist argument
oh wait I can't use metaphors because you're too stupid to understand that.

But anyway I've found long long ago that literally everything that has ever been said in any argument as old as the religion debate has in some way shape or form been said before. Do you really think most of the ideas you have about the religion debate are genuinely new? I feel sorry for you m8.

>sin is what I'll do to you if...
Nah

we all made a horrible mistake
i am now a #cruzmissile

Autism? How does that make any sense with what i said?

youtu.be/QuPsxFklxaw

Do you realize how despicable it is for you to actually imagine that YOU'RE the one imparting life's hard truths?

You're talking about your father.

Breathtakingly disrespectful.

Arrogant.

>thinks bringing up the 3 basic assumptions in science is an argument

Does it actually matter?

Occams razor is used to conclude, not to rebut. It always makes me facepalm when some miseducated git pulls this one out.

No, I think genuinely intelligent people of any demographic can form an argument without needing to expect canned material.

You can use metaphors, but using them one sidedly is sophistry. How is it that me pointing out your sophistry makes me an idiot?

Objectivity does exist.
Think about the philosophical implications that has.
Of course there is much more to it, but then again it's not my responsibility to teach you.
Good luck. :)

>Does it actually matter?
Yes. What you believe is relevant so we can understand from where you are positing your argument

>rebuttals can't be conclusions blah blah useless mind games
Face it, you're getting old, your theism is retarded, and morality can finally be developed rigorously through philosophy. We don't need your primitive metaphorical commands

>You literally omitted the entire quote to better support your argument about faith being positive belief in things, when it's clear I already anticipated that in the first place by using brackets.

>If I have to spell it out, you're not actually worth my time.

Okay little buddy, just for you...

>You asked the question of it's a good idea to convince people not to be religious. I answered.

Your entire premise is wrong. Its my family members who consistently ask, "Are you still atheist?" Typically, they like to push my buttons that way. Your entire ideal of my character is a few degrees off

>Religious people only preach when they're told evangelism is their duty, otherwise it's the same deal and they only preach to justify their own beliefs. You have no evangelism imperative so it's easily assumed it's pure self justification for you.

What if instead of it being self justification, I'm just using my families line of questioning to explore my own thought process. Its not self justification, its self discovery


>Accept your weakeness of (a lack of) faith.

I already answered this

Just as a friendly FYI, when people cut out part of your posts in greentext, its because your point wasnt worth the time it takes to respond to

Atheism is the ultimate blue pill.
It's lazy philosophy for children that don't like to scratch beyond the surface.
Btw saged this is a Sup Forums thread. This isn't Sup Forums

You didnt answer any question you silly, you got on your soapbox and talked about a group of people who dont agree with you. He had a discussion with his dad and shared the story here, there wasnt any arrogance in the post.

>let me save you

literally Israel's sales pitch after terror attacks

That is NOT sophistry you fuck because the metaphor in the context I was using it does not work with Agnosticism. There is no pudding to buy into, you simply don't eat any pudding because they all taste like shit.

>there isnt a culture of anti intellectuality amongst the religious

So then how do you explain the museum in Missouri that teaches that Dinosaurs walked the Earth with Jesus, or the man who spent $100,000,000 to recreate Noah's Arc, or the fact that you dont know its pronounced "intellectualism?"

Not an argument.

Yes, there is a clause for family members about your beliefs, this is because they actually care about your angsty, nihilistic, selfish asshole. The only reason an atheist has to preach is to justify his own beliefs or lack thereof.

>because your point wasn't worth the time
And now the hollier than thou shit, you now claim you're too important to respond to me immediately after doing just that. This is by far the most childish way you can end an argument, but after condescending me and abusing fallacies, I'm not surprised.

Well its fine if you cant, but you asserting things and then running off without giving evidence to support you claim seems like a weird thing to do.

Johnson has an argument against "redpill atheism"

>"Sir he lies! Put a pistol to his breast and see with what equanimity he faces death."

Oh forgive me master I should have known better than to share my thoughts after OP shared his. And telling him that yes he did "hit too hard" as he asked was not answering a question somehow. You have clearly won this imaginary internet fight so I will just wander on to another thread after being shown the error of my ways through your glorious logical brilliance

...

That's dogmatism and Protestantism, I should have said "necessarily a culture..." because you're right scriptural absolutists are also guilty of a form of nihilism that shuts down conversation. All their opinions and beliefs becomes the book and they become nothing at all except mouthpieces of it.

Your shit absolutely doesn't refute that there are intelligent theists out there and there's nothing stopping an intelligent person becoming a theist or a theist becoming an intelligent person. This false equivalence of intelligence and atheism is part of the trick of why it's so persuasive, you actually believe being an atheist makes you more intelligent.

No, nihilistically formed beliefs of any kind are indications of the lowest intelligence.

I didnt "end the argument"

Im just explaining the culture of Sup Forums to you

Im a lineman dude (high voltage power line worker). I face death on my job every day. I have no clue what you are trying to imply

Mr. Wilson contended that people should never rule out any possibility, including that lasagna might fly. On Jan. 6, in his last post on his personal blog, he wrote: “I don’t see how to take death seriously. I look forward without dogmatic optimism, but without dread. I love you all and I deeply implore you to keep the lasagna flying.”

>let me save you
>from what i'll do to you if you don't worship me
OK... so let's think about what the second part of this... the concept of worship can be seen as a kind of subservience and submission from one sentient entity to another. in the case of christian theology this is between the person and God. but, i think, more generally, the concept of worship means: to hold something in a particular regard, in this case, with a sense of reverence. so, it should read...
>regard these particular things with reverence, or you're damned
if you think about what christianity preaches, and what things it holds reverently, i think most will find them very agreeable. upholding virtues like trustworthiness, loyalty, good will to men, righteous rejection of evil, strength in the face of a sordid world, courage through faith, etc, are all (IMO) the most important guides to life as a person out there.

of course, it's always possible to make arguments against the ethics of God giving the person free will to choose between reverence and damnation, but these really strike me as excuses that defend a way of looking at the events of the world without positing accountability. and i don't like that way of looking at the world, even though this decay of accountability in societal practice that is noticeable nowadays seems to be gaining ground every day
>think: arguments excusing certain actions on the grounds that the person committing them did not come from "privilege", and the ways that accountability factors into these ethical arguments.
i think it is indicative of degeneracy to accept arguments that serve to reduce accountability, except when justified. i see the collapse of the west as a failure to identify which arguments are justified and which are not.
>example of justified argument against accountability. i'm not to blame for my car hitting your car, a car behind me slammed into me at a red light.

I understand well, I also understand it's actually easier to quote the whole thing instead of meticulously take out the parts within the quote.

You misquoted me, are you really that spineless that you can't admit it?

This thread itself proves my point. There aren't many good, positive arguments for or against theism, but there are any fallacies, sophistry and abuse of information that the atheists are eager to employ. This is how they argue, they're so assured they're correct and know the truth that, like the extreme left, intellectual dishonesty becomes permissible.

That's stupid tell me good sir which out of the thousands of religions should I begin to study and worship? Should I pick the most popular one cause that's Islam? Should I pick the ones with most evidence? Should that choice be percentage based? Should I pick the one that's most moral on average for the society I'm part of? Should I pick the one that just fits into the beliefs I already hold?

Tell me good sir.

>Are there just some people who will never be capable of handling the red pill? Is it wrong to make them try and swallow it?

Yes. Yes.

My mom told me she saw angels and talked to them. I tried to talk sense into her and she got distraught. I never mentioned or acknowledged it again

People who don't have genius IQ or approaching-genius IQ are basically livestock. They cannot use information to make decisions. They are incapable of it.

Nigger, I responded to your post in full when you took issue with it. What more could you possibly want. Holy fuck. Youve ignored some good points yourself

Read the works of Platinga, Hume, Aquinas, Anderson, and Mentzer (all philosophers). I honestly cannot shove their entire works into even several large posts.

Because we're human, and not beasts? I realize that we're all animals, but our intelligence and conscience thought/self-awareness is what puts us on another plane than them.

>Young religious people rarely talk about religion because the result is always unpleasant, there's always a militant atheist in the room

This

The thing is, I really respect theologians because they have some great insight on the interactions between good and evil (not because of their faith necessarily, but because of the amount of time the spend considering it)

However, this appears to be a Platinga quote

"It is possible that God, even being omnipotent, could not create a world with free creatures who never choose evil."

Okay, fine, then whats the point of calling him omnipotent?

The funny thing is, as an atheist, I am actually open to the idea that there is a slim (.00000001%) chance that the Christian god is real and is almost exactly as described in the bible. I just thin if there is a creature who made us in our image, that doesnt necessarily make him the most powerful being in the universe, and it doesnt mean we couldnt stand up to him

After all, why was he so afraid of us eating the apple of knowledge? What was he afraid of us learning? The limits of his power?

Tiger gotta run
Bird gotta fly
Man gotta wonder, why why why?

the "god" of the atheistic religion is the self, since there is no other thing that could matter.

And you shitting on people that dont agree with you, instead of some useful unbiased something would be relevant. OP waant being a faggot, if the script was flipped i would be dumb for an atheist to say anythig close to what you did. We get it, you blindly dont like atheists. Nobody gives a shit.

>theists can't comprehend a life without worship so assumes atheists worship themselves

Could philosophy ever make your claim true? They dont have any refuting side to discuss with?

Your claim isnt proven. You being lazy IS proven.

this is a very petty critique, and you are providing it as a means to argue against the accountability of people who knowingly break divine command. since divine command is by definition good, despite however bizarre that may seem (consider Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac being lauded as moral behavior), knowingly breaking divine command is knowingly committing wrong action. if you subscribe to "what is Good is what God says is Good," then you're not faced with any problems about reducing the accountability of knowingly defying divine command. if you consider Abraham's willingness to kill Isaac to be immoral, then you allow for a moral action which breaks divine command, on the grounds that divine command does not dictate morality; something can be Good despite God saying it is not Good. and again, this only presents a problem if you reject a might makes right picture of how Goodness and God relate. but i don't reject that picture, and Abraham's willingness to kill Isaac is indeed moral behavior despite seeming immoral at first glance.

>This false equivalence of intelligence and atheism is part of the trick of why it's so persuasive
>you actually believe being an atheist makes you more intelligent.
Did ya know that I didn't know what the word "atheism" meant until I discovered a Yahoo chat room?
I didn't even know that there were people out there just like me who found themselves in the extraordinarily awkward position of being incapable of taking the descriptions of God that everyone in my life had given me, but I didn't argue, because I was convinced that it would happen some day if I just kept rolling along with it. I thought "atheist" literally meant "a follower of Satan", because that's the way that atheists were always portrayed to me.

So when I went into this religious debate chat room and I started arguing with the people there under the beliefs about the meaning of atheism that I was trained to have, you have to imagine my reaction. It seemed to me that there was some kind of massive conspiracy to erase skepticism and disbelief from the face of the Earth. And I find it confirmed every fucking day.

You know why atheists will never fuck off and leave you alone? Because you'll never be satisfied with that. You won't be satisfied until you've peer-pressured and redefined all meaning until everyone believes that "atheism" isn't real.

I'm not intelligent because I'm an atheist, wise guy. I'm an atheist because I'm intelligent.

The red pill is being religious, losing your religion, and then finding God again through a greater understanding than you had before.
The rabbit hole is quite deep and to learn beyond what we know we must die.
The end where you return to God is quite distant and not all memories will carry through to heaven.
To die would be the end for your physical self, heaven or no.