Catalonia Question

OK, gonna piss off the Catalan people who read this.

Why should Catalonia be allowed independence? I'm not Spanish, so I don't understand.

Loads of stuff I've seen shows Catalonians campaigning because they feel "robbed" by Spain, because their region is richer and thus pays more taxes. They want to be independent so they can keep that wealth for themselves.

Do they understand how countries work?

Some of us grew up in the shittier parts of EU countries. Can't you see that you can't just LEAVE and keep your wealth?

If this continues, Europe and western countries will fragment into small states, and then before you know it we'll all be fighting wars again!

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This

I agree for the most part, nationalism has to be stopped at all costs. We fought a world war over this.

>Loads of stuff I've seen shows Catalonians campaigning because they feel "robbed" by Spain, because their region is richer and thus pays more taxes. They want to be independent so they can keep that wealth for themselves.

All non-protestant countries out of the union, NOW!

>Catalonia is barred from recognition within the EU
>UK absorbs it
>becomes United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and Catalonia
>moves its poor people to the beaches there
>Australia 2.0

yep

Catalonia white supremacist nazi anti semitic party want to holocaust 6 million Jews.

Cause Kosovo can.

They want to form their own breakaway communist fascist state, something that would never be tolerated by mainstream society. It cannot be allowed.

I stand with Spain on this which isn't the same as standing against Catalonians.

This, DEATH TO RACIST NATIONALISM, my grandapa killed nazis for nationalism today.

Catalonia has a rich historical background. It's less to do with "me wantings monnies" and more to do with dissent over essentially being absorbed into Spain.


The main problem with all of this shit is how Spain handled it. It'd literally be fascism if it wasn't for how misused the word has become. Might as well just be used to describe your feelings nowadays.

OP reads like a shitpost by the way.

>If this continues, Europe and western countries will fragment into small states, and then before you know it we'll all be fighting wars again!

I didn't know Lichtenstein and Singapore were warmongering imperialist superpowers.

>Some of us grew up in the shittier parts of EU countries. Can't you see that you can't just LEAVE and keep your wealth?

kys commie faggot

>BREXIT

>communist
>fascist
/0

Interesting spacing you have there. you idiots better know how to handle the mess you are getting yourselves into.

Fuck off bongoloid, you'll have to return Independence to all those occupied Celtic countries!

>Catalonians campaigning because they feel "robbed" by Spain, because their region is richer and thus pays more taxes.
This is great because it basically disqualifies them from the role of the poor underdog who is oppressed by the big guy.

It's harder to sympathize with people who are wealthy and arrogant and want independence for reasons of keeping more of their wealth from the poor people in other states.

Because Catalans are better than other people

...

>Do they understand how countries work?
No. They also don't know how currency, customs, taxes, social servants and all the other stuff works. They have literally no plan for anything.

> Why should Catalonia be allowed independence?
im going to go on a limb and say "democracy"

no, we did
also this

This, they really don't know what they're doing and if left alone they will most likely die of starvation in a month
>B-but the EU will come to save us!
The EU will sit on its ass and watch you die, dumb fucks

So you agree with Kosovo independence as well?

It's only democratic if SPAIN votes more than 50%. Does your house want to secede from your country? Do you live alone? That's 100% of your househole that agrees.

FFS this is how European civility dies. One person decides that the seam of gold they live on top of belongs to them, and them alone - then everyone else who lives on a gold seam decides the same thing, and they all build fences around their land.

Then the rest of Europe gets poorer, which people simply won't live with - and they'll take the gold back off those who have ringfenced it.

Leaders pretend wars are fought over ideology, but really they're over wealth. This is how things start to fall apart.

Catalonia has never being a country, has being part of the Kingdom of Aragon and part of Spain since the beggining of Spain existing.

They are a rich part mainly because geographical reasons since ancient times when fenicians landed the first emporium like settlement there. They are at the seashore, own the end of the biggest river in Spain and control one of the main passes thru the Piriness that connects Spain with mainland Europe.

Due to all this, they have created jobs since old and gathered immigration of spanish people; mainly workers that produce there while have been raised creating expenses in formation etc in other parts of Spain. When they reitre, the Spanish government still pay for the retirement pensions...

And they say that Spain steals them because they are a rich part that obviously pay more in taxes than they receive, while poorer regions receive more than the pay (just like any person in a social state, which being escandinavian you should support).

And in fact all this separatist shit have been feeeded by the catalonian elites since they had the Parlamet surrouded by protesters in 2011 after huge cuts in social spending, and many corruption escandals... so they thought "Lets blame Spain again!".

I think westerner are a bit embarrassed because it's ok when kosovo unilateraly declare independance, it's ok when kurds declare independance, it's literally ok when anything destabilize other country in condition that are really far from the referendum we had in spain. They are embarassed because muh democracy is now threatening them and they don't know how to react because if it had been some muslim shithole, everyone would be already asking for bombing the fascist government forces that are literraly killing baby in the streets as the right of people to lead themselve is walked upon.

There is no democracy with nazis.

>Piriness

Kosovo's situation is more complicated. In the last 20 years they've had a shooting war relating to these issues.

The Catalan people might hate Spain but they haven't been at a state of war within the living memory of most people. Those who still care about stuff that old need to move on, because that's the kind of shit where people argue the Falklands need to go back to Argentina, Argentina needs to be given back to Spain...

You're saying it like it's a bad thing
Demonstrating how impotent and spiteful EU is despite its supposed values will be useful to humanity as a whole

illusion that some bureaucrat in Brussels can tell demoracy from his own ass is a harmful one, and a little publicity over the way EU handles (refuses to handle) domestic crises is a good thing

too bad about catalonians though

Sorry for the spelling in general, not only that but all the shit i mistyped.

Can we go for the real debate, and forget my rusty english spelling?

>And they say that Spain steals them because they are a rich part that obviously pay more in taxes than they receive, while poorer regions receive more than the pay (just like any person in a social state, which being escandinavian you should support).

This is kinda why I started the thread.

For those people who are doing this for Catalonian identity, I can empathise with that - but those who are doing it purely for money are just selfish!

Are you going to leave Spain because of money?
If they try to stop you, will you actually fight and kill Spanish people who come to stop you because OF MONEY?

so you tell us.
catalans want the milk but do not want to feed the cow

Not at all
But EU does. And now it reaps what it has sown
Well there are precedents where secessions were called democratic without the larger nation agreeing to it, so it's a little more complicated than that
there's no democracy period, is what I think. so we sort of agree

sorry to break it up to you, but wars have been fought because of money before, and killing armed outlanders coming to your land without invitation or even permission is very much okay

though I don't really think it'll come to that

>Proficient in at least 5 languages
>Catalan, Valencian, Balear, Mallorquín and Spanish

That is mainly it. The motto of the "Prusés" (secesionist process) has been "Espanya ens roba" (Spain steals us).

And all they really want to stay peacefully in Spain is to not share their taxes with the rest of spanish citizens, as the basques (funny enough the Basque Government has been absolutely missing during all this shit, just in case).

> break it up to you
i think i overdid it here somehow.. "break it to you"? these english many-words words are hard

Why shouldn't Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and [spoiler]Cornwall[/spoiler] be allowed independence? I'm not English, so I don't understand.

It's important for all countries to get along with each other, but having large governments with a large a diverse population is inefficient. All is does is create a more central and powerful bureaucracy. It's even worse when the government adopts more socialistic policies. Societies progress towards to the will of the people when it is concentrated. Peaceful separation of a country results in more "weaker" countries but a far better well off population.

Then why are the rich, elitist EUs following Spain unless Spain has a lot of moneyz, too?

>scotland

they were allowed, and they voted against it

>the rest

don't have serious independence movements and wouldn't survive on their own anyway

>Some of us grew up in the shittier parts of EU countries. Can't you see that you can't just LEAVE and keep your wealth?

This.
Fuck them.

>16% of population
>19% of Spain's GDP
no offence catalans, but this is rather unimpressive.

there will always be regional disparities in countries

Then how do new countries even begin in this day and age? Unless they're muslims that cry for victimbucks, like Kosovo.

Catalonia can gain independence, via the legal procedures. Is very hard, but possible if gain the support of the rest of Spain.

What is crazy is to declare independence of a country with 70 yay of 135 members of the catalonian parliament when they demand 90 yay to change the reglament of the parliament, or decide things about the catalonian public TV.

70 yay voting congressmen that represents less than 48% of the catalonian population.

And having made an illegal referendum which non even the Venezuelan supervisors they hired (...) have approved, due to lack of control of the census, the voting and the counting. Whih lees tan 45% of the catalonian population voting, and many voting more than one time, google it, and people from the secessionist parties presiding the voting tables and counting the votes due to unionist not wanting to participate in an illegal referendum.+

You name it as you wish, this is a stupid shit made by nationalist parties to retain power after the happenings of the "Surround the Parlament" movement in 2011 and the prosecution for corruption of many of their leaders including the Pujol family.

You can Google everything.

So the rest of the world doesn't get any weird ideas and start separating over nothing

They shouldn't, unless they are being seriously oppressed (and protip, scatalonia isn't)

I have. So what, it's not like being a separate country is really going to change things up that much. It's all down to bureaucracy. They should hope for military deaths to get victim-bux like Kosovo.

thats it? london is like 40% of our gdp and 14% of our population

>So what, it's not like being a separate country is really going to change things up that much.

Imagine living in the richest region of a country and they suck your income so much the poorest regions get better free infrastructures than yours and when you say that's not fair the rest of the country answers "HOW CAN YOU BE SO SELFISH?"

But why let 48% of the Catalonian population secede the whole Catalonia from Spain for their own interests?

Too late. Look at what happened to Yugoslavia, look at Iraq, the regional anger has always been there, just hidden in times of brutal repression. It's going to come back time and again, until something happens. Doesn't matter if it happens today, next year or in 100 years, separatism will always return to places that feel they deserve being separate. That's why the internet memes will help accelerate the process. It's like a virus, once it gets into a person's head, the thought will stay there. The more people talk about Catalonia abroad, the higher chance it gets that new generations will be comfortable with the thought. It's primitive social engineering.

We were not "seriously oppressed" 112 years ago, we just didn't want to stay in a union with Sweden. Maybe we should have, all along, but that's just what happens. I still don't understand the case of Czechoslovakia, since the Czechs lost a lot of industrial areas in the amicable split.

>the richest

but that's wrong

>"I don't understand what being part of a country means"

>16% of Spain's population
>25.6% of Spain's exports
>19% of Spain's GDP
>20.7% of foreign investment

still not convincing

First Spanish region to get all their main cities connected by hi speed railway (paid by Spain).

Biggest Spanish ports for cruises and goods, paid by Spanish money.

Huge modern airport, guess what... paid by Spanish Government.

What poorer area in Spain has better infraestructure than Catalonia?

>Catalonia was apparently receiving roughly $95 for every $100 they paid in taxes to the national government
>enough to start a separatist movement
>Buenos Aires province gets $25 for every $40 it gets taxed
thank god the people from Buenos Aires don't get uppity as long as there's a populist giving gibs
the damn province has special treatment on the constitution so it can have it's very own army

The Czechs didn't want to share their porn profits

but user, how do you think your country became a country?

But this is not simply a union, this is a country bound by a constitution that specifically forbids regions just declaring independence whenever they feel like it and as such Catalonia has no legitimate claim to independence.

You don't know there's that few, there's a lot of nationalism, but not everyone wants a unilateral split.

>implying it actually would

It's not like South Sudan, which has shit-tier infrastructure, foreign relations, constant tribal infighting. If they can do it, Catalonia would manage. Rajoy won't have an easy time ruling Catalonia, anyway.

Catalonia got independent for reasons anglo nations can't understand because those reasons aren't immediate/familiar to them. Continental europe isn't a island, you know, there are cultural/economic/linguistic differences in such nations that are absent in unified and standardized anglo nations.

About the wars you mentioned, this is not the HRE anymore. Actually, you are the one that decides the world needs a world war every time it happened, but for some reason you don't like to talk about you only do that when a continental nation decides to get unified and become a regional power, so there's nothing for you to worry about, because they are actually doing the exact opposite of that.

>2018
>Barcelona finds receiving roughly $95 for every $100 they paid in taxes to the Catalan government
>Barcelona starts a separatist movement to free itself from Catalonia
t. political theorist

Solo son egoistas que no entienden que cualquier polo de desarrollo de cualquier pais tiene que colaborar para el desarollo de las zonas que no tienen tanta suerte; de las que por otro lado consigue mano de obra formada etc.

Catalonians dont what to help schools in Extremadura... but they have imported trained workforce from there since like forever. For example.

I read an article about how regions can split according to some clause, but it's downplayed or hasn't been implemented.

>Catalonia would manage
Dude...

>as such Catalonia has no legitimate claim to independence.

Speaking of parts that have no legitimate claim to independence, how did those overseas American colonies go?

this. i don't understand why americans don't support revolutions anymore

>Oh the mighty EU
Can't even control its borders, let alone inner cities

Not surprised that the biggest fans of the EU are Argentinians far away from Europe

They cant. Art. 2 of the Spanish Constitution says so. "Indisoluble unity of Spanish Nation".

You can change the Constitution for sure. The procedure is written down... in the Constitution itself. It has to be voted in both the Congress and the Senate and in a referendum by all the spanish people.

And thats very much it.

When you have a country where people shit out the streets, genocide each other after an election and Sudan doesn't just steamroll it right back in, you can have a country that looks like Spain Lite exist on its own. It even has sea-access!

Read spanish constitution.

I can kinda sympathize to some degree tho. Here, for the last 70 years the provinces that contribute the most to the national government have always been the same, and the ones that were poor 70 years ago and have been getting money thrown at them for all that time... are still the same, absolutely mismanaged shitholes where government spending represents 70% of the local money flow, and politicians go around asking for political favors.
You're right, there's no way the richer regions of a country should get away with contributing less or even the same as the poorer ones, but I think appeasing the Catalans, at least short term would be a good move. Promise them a review on the tax system or something like that

>cataLOONYa right now

>I've seen shows Catalonians campaigning because they feel "robbed" by Spain
it's not the robbery what bothers catalans is the imposition of a highly unfair taxes that goes directly to Madrid and the gov. then decides what to return to Catalonia. Then, there's also the matter that PP is imposing a recentralization since the cuttback of the Catalan statute, later they imposed a education law that reduces the presence of Catalan in the schools in favor of Spanish.

That must have been what I was thinking of.

Rajoy is really unpopular from before, any chance he gets booted out and the new government gets to work actually changing it so they can get rid of Catalonia peacefully? I can't imagine it will be popular to spend more of the budget running Catalonia directly, replacing workers and getting obstructed at every turn.

They has to fight a war to secede from the BRitish Empire. And then another war against the Confederate secesionists... You guess... the ol´burgers... aint then funny?

Catalonian secesionists can wage war against the 40% catalonian unionists and the rest of Spain.... or can try...

confirmed for knowing nothing of england.
we are an island: we voted leave.

any catalan flag posts?

I don't even support their independence, kek

Actual nationalism seeks to unite similar people under one government, not draw false lines.

s.4cdn.org/image/country/catalonia.gif

There was also some law or new regulation on autonomy that was suspended which pissed Catalonians over ten years ago.

How can a minority in Spain (the catalans) change the constitution? this is ridiculous. Its as imposing them to remain in Spain.

Oh boi, it's so good to read a 'do they understand how countries work" from someone from UK

get your shit together first

You really want that to happen? Is it really worth fighting another civil war over?

>fans
Where did you get the idea i was a fan?

Catalonians have no restrictions by the state for being catalonian

Not them, the majority of parties in the Spanish parliament. The ones not in charge have been willing to do so, but not Rajoy.

Confirmed for knowing nothing about reading: I was talking about history, not brexit.
And the reason why you started world wars and see this as a pretext for war is the same, your lack of understanding of continental affairs and their implications to the nations of europe, and to western civilization as a whole.

this is saying nothing

Yeah, thats call democracy you know? When you cant always get what you want and stuff.

Why the Catalonian Parlament needs 2/3 yay vote to change "important" things inside catalonia as TV· and only 70/135 to secede from Spain forever?

PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos want to change the constitution but not to allow the secession. I think secession is a human right, I'm libertarian.

I dont want anything, I expose the facts. If the law of your state doesnt allow you to secede (or asks for conditions you cant cope with), you can do it only by force or the threat of force.

>When you cant always get what you want and stuff.

I'm sure the rest of Spain are ok with using even more resources on Catalonia with direct rule coming.