/who/ Doctor Who General

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youtube.com/watch?v=j-_1-uJ6Ml4

I didn't watch the last Christmas special. Did I miss anything important? Should I watch it before the new series tomorrow?

>How did the idea of bringing back the ’60s style Cybermen come about?

>Moffat: I always liked those ones. And I never took it that seriously, but he [Minchin] kept saying that he thought they were the best ones and I preferred the metal-faced ones. But I did have a look at it and I thought there was something we could do that would make them look spooky and interesting, and there was a story coming up in which they fit. So that’s how it came about. I mean, obviously, I think if we tried this 10 years ago people would’ve laughed at it, but there’s something sort of retro and right about them now that makes it work.

uproxx.com/hitfix/moffat-minchin-doctor-who-interview/

youtube.com/watch?v=g2Q9oS1fLfc

Reminder that /who/ in less than 24 hours /who/ will be kill

NO

No to both

Fun but disposable.

Nardole (Bald guy from the previous Christmas special) is alive and well. And I envy the dead.

It might come up later that UNIT is now inflitrated by alien brain parasites, maybe not. I suspect the plot will run through Christmas specials, as it started with Husbands.

>His Doctor became a "mad old buffer" who was largely stripped of nuance and subtlety.

10 was the least subtle Doctor though. Every one of Tennant's scenes would be improved if they were given to someone else, rather than having him there gurning and breathing heavily while he pores over his woes like an angsty teen. And that was as much RTD's fault as it was Tennant's. It was RTD who shoehorned in all the "muh Rose" whining. RTD invented the Time War guilt, a neat little tool for the Doctor to pull out whenever he needed to make some rousing speech. It was a lot better under 9, but that's because 9's Time War speeches mostly came from other writers, e.g. Shearman (Dalek) or the infamous "Everybody lives!" moment written by Moffat. Once you get to Series 2, RTD handles more of these speeches and the Time War gets old quick. Moffat made the right decision in ignoring it through most of his era.

>The companions were half-baked and under-developed - they were little more than ciphers, reduced to their narrative function, lacking any real depth or complexity.

Let me guess, you're going to cite Clara as one of these "half-baked" companions? Series 8 and 9 are Rose's arc done right. The whole point of Series 2 was to show Rose becoming more arrogant and Doctorlike as she travelled in the TARDIS, culminating in her comeuppance as she is locked in the alternate universe "forever". But Billie Piper didn't have the acting skills to back that up - not to mention the absolutely appalling writing at the end of the Series..

no and if you want. The Christmas special was good but not needed

Guess I'll put that on the list of episodes to get around to "eventually" then. Thanks Anons.

>Series 8 and 9 are Rose's arc done right.
kek

What else is on that list?

About half of Matt Smith's era
Old who
Oh and Midnight. Forgot to watch it when it aired, never got around to watching it since

Reminder that Peter Capaldi on Graham Norton 5:30 US/10:30 UK

streamgaroo.com/tv-stream/united-kingdom/bbc-1-live-stream

A pity all the juicy stuff is already on Youtube

repostan

Well, I disagree about 10, as said here
(You)
and so far nobody's said exactly why 11 and 12 are more subtle.

Is there anything particularly subtle about 12 asking Clara "am I a good man?" in episode 2 of his tenure - the theme that defined his entire run? I'd say no, particularly. And what did the arc amount to? "I am not a good man! I'm not a bad man, either! I'm just...an idiot!"

So we had a whole arc that went nowhere, because ultimately it took us right back to "mad old buffer".

The thing is, Ten felt guilt and pain and loss over the Time War. When he pulled out a Time War speech - and I can only really remember Runaway Bride's "Gallifrey" speech for an actual example - he didn't do so triumphantly, like 11's constant crowing. He did it with a sense of gravity and grief. And why shouldn't Ten have woes? I'd imagine after 900 years of loss and sacrifice, I'd start to become bitter and resentful myself. That was a logical consequence of the Doctor's lifestyle, and the fact that you didn't like him because of it doesn't actually mean it didn't make sense, or it didn't make for good drama.

>Let me guess, you're going to cite Clara as one of these "half-baked" companions?

In her initial appearances, yes. She was clearly ill-conceived and developed. She was the "Impossible Girl" and nothing else. Just another quirky, quippy, sassy, feisty, kooky cipher like Amy. She GOT a personality, eventually, but her family or life beyond the Doctor didn't extend beyond dating Danny Pink. She was half-baked, in the sense that only half the character was ever considered or written.

And as for acting skills, I think that's always going to be subjective. I don't personally rate Coleman, I found her "I am the Doctor" speech at the beginning of Death in Heaven a crystallised example of why she's so poor in the role - she can only deliver lines in a single tone or register. She can't colour her performance with the emotion of the scene.

Capaldi is fucking hot with that hair. Would let that daddie fuck me.

youtu.be/Xaw9bQb0oT0

I adore you man
You said things I couldnt express myself so well
Thank you!

Great cover

75%

>But his self-regard is a major flaw. He's hubristic, narcisstic, and self-righteous, something that lends him a cruelty and malice not usually seen in the Doctors. Yet, for all his cruelty, for all his confidence, he's also lonely and vulnerable - and his cruelty is borne, to an extent, from compassion. He suffers when others suffer - he cares, he genuinely cares for their pain, which is what's lent him such a tyrannical streak in the second and third series.
IDK, subtlety is a hard to define thing but I'd say most of that is explicit in his "no higher authority than me" speech in New Earth. If not then, then certainly in The Waters of Mars, although that's at the tail end of his era and playing off themes that have been there throughout.

>By the fourth, he's had to come to terms with the damage he does to other people, and, to an extent, he's been able to grieve the Time Lords through the Master's passing.
Not sure what you mean by this. I don't think he changed significantly in series 4.

>Amy's Choice, the Girl Who Waited, the God Complex all really tear down a Doctor who's been exposed, to an extent, for a sham - if there's one thing that drives 11, it's guilt and self-loathing
Those episodes are all pretty unsubtle about those themes. I just mean that in general it's less obvious what the Doctor is thinking and feeling in any given scene. They hide their emotions more and communicate things by implication.

Die.

Anyone else really not looking forward to Bill and seeing that gormless fucking look on her face every time the camera's on her?

GRAHAM NORTON SHOW
WITH CAPALDI
IN 30 MINS
GET HYPE
GET ONBOARD

CYTU BE / R / CASUALWHOSTREAM

>Doctor Who writers/artists no longer hate Colin
What brave new world is this?

Maybe the last little bit with Nardole, because i think it might set the tone of what The Doctor is feeling.

Why are RTDcucks so prone to samefagging?

I'm not going to be viewing her through hate goggles where all of her facial expressions translate as a slack-jawed, dehumanised 'gormlessness', if that's what you're trying to express here.

go back to /got/

Because they're the minority here (25%) and they know it.

GET HYPE

Ok how about the fact everything she says seems to be quirky for the sake of being quirky and sounds like she's reading a script from the early 00's.

nice samefag

explain pls, i dont want to watch that shit

You havent seen an episode yet

...

Well the change in series 4 is demonstrated by how appalled he is when Metacrisis Ten exterminates the Daleks. He's past the rage and anger of the Time War, and he's got pity now, even for his enemies.

>They hide their emotions more and communicate things by implication.

Do they, though? What are they communicating? And if they are doing that, is it any different from Ten blithely prat-falling through the alien ship in Family of Blood, only to enact the most cold and ruthless kind of retribution imaginable in the subsequent scenes? As self-deprecating and silly as he is on the ship, is there anything silly about the eternity of torment he inflicts on his enemies, or the total humourlessness of his face?

I don't see Ten's cheeriness being any different from Eleven's eccentricity or Twelve's callousness, and I'd dispute the idea that Eleven and Twelve, particularly, are somehow more subtle and nuanced than Ten on that grounds.

>muh nostalgia

nice shoop

nice projection RTDcuck

Less than 24 hours until the beginning of the end.

Is the doctor going to be female?

That would be so stupid and SJW.

>Well the change in series 4 is demonstrated by how appalled he is when Metacrisis Ten exterminates the Daleks.
I still would love to know what Actual10's plan would've been. Metacrisis10 did him a fucking favour.

>implying
why don't you write another eye bleed of a post on the superiority of farting aliens and blowjob slabs

>he's been able to grieve the Time Lords through the Master's passing.

What?

...

Series 6-9

>Coleman's acting

Say what you want, but Jenna changes her register at the ending scene of Kill the Moon. From when they land back on Earth, and you can see Clara's anger bubbling through, to her outburst at the end, with fear and anger on her face. Then there's the Dark Water scene in the volcano, where Jenna shows Clara's anger turning into desperation and sadness, and eventually pleading.

Even in Series 7b, you can see, in Time of the Doctor's ending scene, Jenna shows Clara's grief and fear as she knows the Doctor's about to change.

None of that is at the same register.

Coleman is very hit and miss.

KEK
I think he just means that it sort of gave him closure or helped him to process it up close. I don't really know if losing all of my people, then getting one of them back, then losing him would help me, personally, but I'm sure someone's psychological makeup could process that positively or cathartically.

>Well the change in series 4 is demonstrated by how appalled he is when Metacrisis Ten exterminates the Daleks. He's past the rage and anger of the Time War, and he's got pity now, even for his enemies.
I guess, but that always seemed kind of bullshit to me. I mean, what would he have done? NOT exterminated the Daleks? They were going to destroy the entire multiverse. Anyway, Donna was the one who really killed them and he doesn't seem mad at her.

>Do they, though? What are they communicating? And if they are doing that, is it any different from Ten blithely prat-falling through the alien ship in Family of Blood, only to enact the most cold and ruthless kind of retribution imaginable in the subsequent scenes? As self-deprecating and silly as he is on the ship, is there anything silly about the eternity of torment he inflicts on his enemies, or the total humourlessness of his face?
That's not really what I mean. That was a Troughton-esque ruse designed to fool his enemies, I'm thinking more of how the Doctor relates to his friends and companions, like the end of Death in Heaven or the way 11 uses his travel as a sort of escapism. In general, I don't think 10 is a dark, angry man pretending to be a swashbuckling adventurer, he's a swashbuckling adventurer who sometimes gets dark and angry.

Well, that's my interpretation, anyway, based on the fact that prior to series 4, the Doctor seems especially vengeful and ruthless - in the series 4 finale, he seems to have come to terms, to an extent, with the trauma of the Time War, given that he castigates Metacrisis Ten for enacting genocide on the Daleks - compared to "no second chances" 10 from the Christmas Invasion, Runaway Bride, the Family of Blood, etc. He just seems especially chill following Last of the Time Lords - which I took to be him coming to terms with being alone - hence the title.

How so? Give examples.

Oh. I misread your post. My bad.

fuck lads won the Thunderball

shit m8 just won the earthshock

>Warren Beatty on Graham Norton

Can't wait for 10 minutes on the Oscar flub.

ALSO FUCK ME DADDY CAPALDI.

kek

Guys, you have to watch Graham Norton. Capaldi looks so fucking hot it is ridiculous...also the fuck, how is he getting younger each time? Is he sucking Tennant's and Smith's life force?

I won the Euro millions, take that Brexshiteers.

Christ, being made to promote the show on your birthday.

I see where you're coming from, and I respect that. You've convinced me, to an extent - I think 11 and 12 are more subtle in the sense that they are more guarded then 10 was, although 10 I think was guarded at times - when he was hurt, or rejected, for example. I wouldn't say that that made them more nuanced, though. Maybe it's because I see 10 as a more relatable Doctor, someone who's experiences are broadly translatable to real-life, human experiences, whereas Moffat's always gone with "the Doctor is an alien" - and maybe just because Moffat's proliferation as a writer tends to rob 11 and 12 of nuance in his actual episodes.

I don't see 11 travelling for escapism as being something intrinsic to his incarnation, though - that's in the DNA of every Doctor.

They film on a Wednesday

Can't, I'm watching Fellowship of the Ring for the billionth time and once I've started, I have to see it through.
Pretty sure it's recorded like a day or two before, if not much earlier even than that.

You know he is probably getting money for it, right?

ah, they're only *pretending*

Yeah it's kind of funny when the guests have to pretend how their christmas went when it's on then.

>Twelve's callousness

Twelve's callousness is deeper than that. He's callous in part because he's alien, but also because he's introverted. He has a lot of emotion, but he's not comfortable with being emotional with everyone, so he has a spiky exterior. Another part of his prickliness is that he believes in beinh honest. He's tired of at playing human--he's now being himself, warts and all. That also means he's somewhat less manipulative.

Part of the depth of Series 8 is the audience, and Clara, learning that despite not being as warm as Eleven, Twelve does care in his own way, despite his apparent "callousness." (And another depth to Series 8 is Clara learning that she's callous, in her own way.)

Actually, that brings to mind a problem with the show in general - how do you give a 900-2000 year old creature an arc? I think that's why I've always found Ten's arc enjoyable - in some ways, it's a second lease of life, a sort of mid-life crisis, so his renewed enthusiasm and whimsy make a lot of sense. As does 11's regression to childhood - I feel like his persona, rather than his travels, was what made 11 more "escapist" - he was literally trying to escape the burdens of being the Doctor. My problem with that is that it was an idea Moffat last interest in very quickly, and the Doctor under Moffat doesn't really have any flaws, nor does he have to answer for them.

Yeah, I got all that from watching the show - but how is that subtle?

>and the Doctor under Moffat doesn't really have any flaws, nor does he have to answer for them.
Does he not? Interestingly, under Moffat, the Doctor's become more of a liar, for one thing. ("Rule 1: the Doctor lies"). He's always pulled fast ones and told fibs but not to the extent of 2010 onwards. He isn't always called out on his shit either, apart from when River gives him a slap.

Oh, disregard , misread the trip. But yeah, I agree with all that - I was just saying that his callousness was a mask for his compassion, that, fundamentally, he's trying to help, and do the right thing, but that he's suffered so much, and for so long, he's become hardened to his losses. Ten, I would've said, uses his cheery demeanour to mask his age and his pain. Twelve has completely shed any mask.

>He isn't always called out on his shit either

That's what I mean, though. He doesn't have to answer for his flaws, and as a result, are they actually flaws at all? Is 11 actually harming anyone with his lies? Is he shown to have done wrong by lying in any of Moffat's episodes? I can't remember that being the case - in fact, isn't the episode he does that the Big Bang, where it's treated as an ingenious gambit - despite putting the lives of his companions at risk?

10 and 11 don't really have arcs though.
Not necessarily a bad thing, most of the classic doctors didn't.
But they just kind of did whatever with those doctors.

12 on the other hand has had a lot of development and growth imo.

It's subtle, because:

A) It's a lot deeper than "Twelve is rude!"

B) It's never directly stated in the series. To the point where a lot of people missed this, and stopped at "Twelve is rude af"

>mfw I always see the thumbnail and think its a Bill and Ted Excellent General Thread and it never is.

It's an issue I have with some of Moffat's Doctor. He does questionable shit but isn't always called out on it. Compare to, say, Gridlock, where the Doctor tells quite a harmless fib but rectifies it (and apologises to Martha) at the end. That's so important. But then along comes 11 who seems to just lie because he likes it and nobody seems to care. Hmm.

Miranda Hart next Doctor confirmed

It can be if you want it to user.

Yeah, but I wasn't saying that, what I was saying was that I don't think there's a fundamental distinction between Twelve's callousness masking his compassion and Ten's cheeriness masking his underlying brooding angst. I like Capaldi and 12 a lot more than 11, if that wasn't clear. It's just a shame that in series 9, he lost a lot of the edge and spikiness.

Fair enough. You seem like a nice user.

>how do you give a 900-2000 year old creature an arc?
I don't see that as a problem in itself, the problem is trying to keep the story going through of decades of character arcs without repeating the same ones or making them feel inconsequential. But it kind of reminds me of when I was a kid and got into Greek mythology, I found it weird that the gods didn't have arcs. How could they just stay the same forever? Didn't they have experiences that changed them, however old they were?

>I feel like his persona, rather than his travels, was what made 11 more "escapist" - he was literally trying to escape the burdens of being the Doctor.
Yeah.

>My problem with that is that it was an idea Moffat last interest in very quickly, and the Doctor under Moffat doesn't really have any flaws, nor does he have to answer for them.
But what about that scene where they're locked up in Day of the Doctor and War and 10 both call him out on his bullshit? Or the whole wrist-breaking bit in The Angels Take Manhattan?

BOGUS!

It's not deeper than that though, is it?

12 has a gay old time taking the piss out of everybody in Into the Dalek, including the bereaved and the dead, and he's positively gleeful that the dalek turns out to be evil because it means he's right. He's not Doctor Who, he's Doctor House, and it's only Clara bollocking him that makes him change his mind - not because he cares that hundreds of people are now being exterminated, which evidently he doesn't, but because Clara doesn't like him any more. There's no depth to his callousness in that episode - the guy's just a prick.

But, under Moffat, Twelve got some raked through the coals at the end of Kill the Moon. And he straight up loses Clara forever due to his sins in Hell Bent.

Danny calls him out. Clara calls him out. Me calls him out. Ohila (the Sister of the Flame) calls him out.

Series 8 and 9 is all about calling him out.

People slapping the Doctor always grates on me, in both RTD and Moffat's eras. In RTD's time, it's essentially a running gag because it's always the mother (apart from Donna who does it to slap him out of it). In Moffat's era, from memory, River slaps him a couple of times and Jenny slaps him. The latter is fair enough because he sexually assaults her ffs but even then he doesn't apologise. River at one point slaps him for something he hasn't done yet (which is kind of stupid). Ugh. I just hope Bill doesn't slap the Doctor. It's one thing that needs to stop.

(I apologise for my incoherent mess. I just don't like the slaps, basically.)

Bill doesn't seem like the slapping type.

It's not necessary for the companion to slap the Doctor and shouldn't be normalised. There'd ne uproar if it was the other way around

>Ugh

True, but I feel like 11 rarely got called out for his bullshit. Maybe the way they've handled 12 is partly a reaction to that. They give him a line about how he's 2000 years old and made many mistakes and now he wants to fix that. I love that, cos it does seem like the Doctor finally taking some responsibility for some shit he's done. Him saying sorry to Clara for his 11th self acting as though he was her boyfriend, etc.

I just wish 11 had been called out more. Or just been more genuinely nice and less 'laddish' at times.

Completely agree. Nobody should be slapping anyone in this show. Have the companion mouth off (Clara in Kill the Moon, and the Doctor calls her out for saying 'bloody', etc) but never violence. Slaps aren't funny either, Steven.

Thanks. I needed that today. First my tendies were soggy, and the a crippling nostalgia took over. I am gonna go take a shower and cry.

Sorry to hear that user. I'd give you a hug but you'd call me a fag

Capaldi finally talking about the Weinstein story

>Or just been more genuinely nice and less 'laddish' at times.
To clarify, I mean I wish there'd been less of this type of stuff:

"Impossible girl. A mystery wrapped in an enigma squeezed into a skirt that's just a little bit too tight. Oh yeah."

&

Him hiding up a woman's dress in the Series 6 opener, as well as kissing Jenny like some drunk idiot on a night out.

Clara literally calls him out on that in the episode. And he changes his mind because he realizes he's being an asshole at that moment. It has nothing to do with Clara being mad versus happy--it's because he recognizes Clara's mad at a very specific moment of self-righteous rudeness.

Twelve is particularly rude in the beginning--but in context, it's in a situation where being maudlin could waste time. The reason Twelve doesn't cry tears over the dead is because tears won't bring the dead back, or keep anyone else alive. So he doesn't see the point is wasting tears--he is inside the most dangerous creature in existence, and can't waste time in being polite, in his eyes.

House literally doesn't care. Twelve does care, but doesn't think dwelling on his feelings will save anyone.

They ruined 11 after Series 5.