Today, I would like to talk about Masculinity.
Tell me about your experiences and relationship to masculinity. What do you like about it, what do you appreciate about it? Does it stand alone, or does it only exist in relation to women? What has your journey in regards to masculinity been?
Don't respond if you only have a single sentence to share.
Comfy Boys Aesthetic welcome.
for most of my life i didn't even really consider masculinity a thing, i suppose it's shoved down our throats that we're all the same all the time. i remember when i read war and peace i started to notice actual differences in the genders. i'm still not sure how to describe it though as most gay men i've met seem to have feminine energy while lesbians are quite masculine.
Young men need same-sex peer groups, and older men as role models. This is important if they are to get along with other men and learn to successfully compete with them.
Women can only teach men their experiences with or expectations of masculinity. Having said that, I value the time spent with my grandmother, learning manners and family traditions.
masculinity is the desire to best other men. it is what drives a pioneer spirit. women do not have it. the best they can do is parrot other people's ideas and even if they perform research, all they can do is apply other people's shit and push it forward, but there can never be a real "step" to a next level.
>masculinity is the desire to best other men.
How so?
>Women can only teach men their experiences with or expectations of masculinity.
I think that is very true. More often than not it's in a negative way too unfortunately.
I like having a penis because I can pee on anything. I also like having balls because they smell good.
>for most of my life i didn't even really consider masculinity a thing
I did not think about it when I was younger either. I just didn't care for the ideas. I was too busy being young.
> i suppose it's shoved down our throats that we're all the same all the time
I never really thought of it that way. Maybe its because we grew up with a generation of media that said that everyone is unique and all that BS, but I just never felt anyone who said we had to act a certain way as men was someone to take seriously (even my own father). As I got older and started figuring my own life out I took an interest in masculinity but I don't think of it as a scale or a list of accomplishments. The center of masculine energy is a sun and we are all just sorta revolving around it. Some of us are closer to it than others, but were all existing in relation to it.
> still not sure how to describe it though as most gay men i've met seem to have feminine energy while lesbians are quite masculine.
I think one thing to keep in mind is that people who go against the gender norm are just going to be more noticable than those who don't. Not saying that the majority are 'straight acting' but quite a few are just normal people, not super masculine but not overly feminine either. You could see a hundred guys walk down the street and 10% of them could be gay, but you see one coming down in borderline female clothing who is skipping and you're going to say 'see, all gays are girlie'.
Doing the bare minimum in requirements just means you shouldn't post man.
You are gay.
Masculinity is a good thing, and the concept of "toxic masculinity" is a stupid buzz word for the most part. For the most part, traditionally masculine things are good for men and society at large. When we try to turn boys into girls, we get what we see today. Social unrest and random explosions of senseless violence. There's a reason we didn't see school shootings in the 60s 70s and 80s despite the proliferation of firearms. Back in those days men were allowed, and encouraged, to be men. Young boys were given male role models to look up to and it created stronger men. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it was better. If we keep writing off masculinity as toxic, we can only expect things to get worse.
I'm more interested in your personal experiences and relationship with masculinity. While I don't disagree with you, I could find 50 thousand posts on reddit saying the exact same thing.
I'm more interested in your personal experience, not a debate about its role in current society.
Read Robert Bly's "Iron John." This is the most important modern text in masculine studies.
The goal of man should be to be both masculine and feminine. Establishing a balance between those two cognitive faculties. To have the feminine capacity for warmth and compassion and understanding, wisdom and youthfulness, but to have the physical and mental wherewithal to provide and protect.
Modern boys no longer have father figures. If the father isn't physically absent, he is emotionally or intellectually absent. This lack of guidance leads to regression, to either entirely feminine traits in a male (which is unproductive) or to the popularly coined term "toxic masculinity."
To be masculine means to be warm and caring, but vicious in protection and providing, and accepting of responsibility.
To put it bluntly, a masculine man is warm on the inside, and hardened on the outside, and he knows which to express appropriately in different social or intimate settings.
>Read Robert Bly's "Iron John." This is the most important modern text in masculine studies.
Read the OP first. I did not ask for information on masculinity. I asked for your personal experiences and relationship with it. I'm not studying.
This book is the summation of the archetypal relationship I have with my own manhood. Anything personal I have to say about my experiences can be found in that book.
Strength.
Courage.
Mastery.
bitches can wear pants, sweaters, and suits and look normal, but if a man wears a skirt, a crop top or short shorts they immediately stand out and look weird. why
Do you know how retarded you sound? Instead of just telling us your personal experiences you expect us to purchase and read an entire book just to get your opinions on masculinity? And you claim that it sums you up perfectly, so you're just a drone whose only relationship to masculinity is a book? just fuck off dude. If you don't want to have a conversation, then don't post.
Putting a period after a word does not make it a sentence, nor does it explain your relationship or experiences with masculinity if that were the case.
Kilt hours.
Your hostility indicates a weak sense of manhood, just so you know. What happened to "comfy?" Judging by how critical you've been of responses, it's no wonder you've gone to an anonymous image forum to have a discussion on a topic like manhood.
It was around 16 I realized I was what was wrong with the world. I was a fan of My Little Pony, I made shitty YouTube videos, I had never kissed a girl, I thought of myself as above typical social conduct. I believed those going out to parties and drinking were weak, and I was superior. One day, I read that book I mentioned, I realized my distaste for healthy socialization stemmed from how oppressive and militant my mother was. I realized I wasn't brave, I was afraid. I wasn't wise, I was dumb. Inexperienced. Regressive. From then on, it was a very manual process of healthily socializing myself and forcing lifestyle changes. I began to work out, I went out with friends, and I realized just how socially retarded I was. But through repetition, I developed social skills. Its been years, and I'm very happy and content with where I'm at, but always looking to improve. I have had a lovely girlfriend for three years. And these successes came solely from the realization that we are never who we think we are. Our egos and personas are that of our own doing, and we have a responsibility to do better. For ourselves and for others. That being a man is something we earn, not something which is biologically given.
Masculinity is inherently toxic and should be relegated to the annals of history.
>Your hostility indicates a weak sense of manhood, just so you know
If I cared about what you think of my manhood, I would have bought your book.
Not going to bother with the rest. I wasn't hostile in my first post, but you insisted the book was somehow important to discussion, because apparently you already know you're not worth talking to.
So I'll take that advice.
Not as toxic as femininity tho
> Be you, ask question about masculinity
> Post the gayest fucking picture in the world, with two obvious faggots.
>Be you
>see two men in a picture
>immediately start imagining them having sex
hmm.
too long, didn't read. PS, you're trying way too hard, and obviously struggling with your homosexuality.
Picture of two skinny faggots, one staring into the sky, like a faggot, the other staring at the first faggot. A FUCKING CORGI, THE OFFICIAL DOG OF THE INCEL CUCK.
You are a fucking homo.
Can we just say fuck and make this a comfy thread?
relating a fucking dog to being incelibate, and then relating that to sex with men?
you have a long way to go with those social skills, you self righteous faggot.
Why has my suggestion of a book made you so upset?
Better than nothing, but you might as well weigh in on the topic.
He responded fine to the people who actually followed the clearly worded instructions, weighed in on his thoughts, asked follow up questions, etc. Maybe next time don't tell people to go read a book, then when they point out that a book isn't conversation, insist that they need to read the book.
Every pathetic male that shacks up with a woman who cucks them and says "oh no we don't want kids" ends up with two corgis. One wears a bandanas, one wears sun glasses. And the pathetic bitch boy faggot pretends its all good.
Corgi's are for watered down soy boy fucktards and their bullshit coupling to a female that runs their life.
How does that lead to homosexuality?
>Upset
Just because someone didn't stroke your ego doesn't mean they are upset.
Let me help you OP. Picture of Lance Mackey and one of his dogs, not some weabo gay shit.
When he pointed out a book isn't conversation, I proceeded to follow his "instructions" and tried to open a dialogue.
If a conversation is dictated by "instructions," its not a conversation.
I'd say masculinity is not something I see a lot of in myself at heart. The stereotypical buff lumberjack, the driven CEO and the starving artist are all figures of masculinity that I see some of myself in but I dont feel like I exemplify them. I just really want an easygoing life where I can live up to my obligations and take care of people in my life which in many ways is a definite feminine or androgynous take on things. Of course, me being Male, it's expected that I'm not weak and that I have a level of stoicism but then I'd be lying if I said I wanted anything more than just setting up a townhome where I can drink coffee nearby and raise my kids.
not comfy or aesthetic. fun though.
this
It's the run above being a butt pirate. Your existence of a man in a relationship like that is pretty much one to one as useless as dumping a load in some dude's ass: unproductive, completely the opposite of what the function of a male is. You're a few years away from "I'm bored in bed user, would you mind if I invite one of my friends into the bed? His name's Bill"
> just fuck off dude
Sounds like something someone upset would say.
It's kind of the catch 22 of being a responsible male: comfy doesn't fucking exist. Comfy is what you provide for family, through sacrifice and pain.
>When he pointed out a book isn't conversation, I proceeded to follow his "instructions" and tried to open a dialogue.
No, you insisted upon the book, and then when I pointed out AGAIN, that it isn't conversation you said:
>Your hostility indicates a weak sense of manhood
which makes no sense, it's just you trying to be a dick.
>it's no wonder you've gone to an anonymous image forum to have a discussion on a topic like manhood.
That is not trying to open a dialogue, that is trying to be a dick. Posting a paragraph afterwards does not rectify that.
>If a conversation is dictated by "instructions," its not a conversation.
Yes it is. Are you now saying that any conversation on any board with a specific topic is now not a conversation because the instructions and rules in place? Is any thread that isn't 'come in and say whatever the fuck you want' no longer a conversation because it has instructions on what you want to talk about?
You're grasping at straws. You are not making yourself look any better. You could have just said 'oops', and then shared your opinion the first time. You could have even done it the second time. But you bitched out and then acted like that was 'opening a dialogue'. sure, I called you retarded, but the nice approach just made you think you were correct and I had on interest in 'opening a dialogue' after that.
That's all I'm going to say on it now, I'm done trying to extend basic conversational logic to a brony who thinks that disagreeing with him is a sign of 'weak manhood'.
That's such an odd way to look at it. I can't even begin to understand. You might want to insult me over that, but with millions of people being comfy with just simple moments or friendships I really won't be bothered by it.
A man who can't take an honest observation is no man.
Take it easy, man.
I think "masculinity" is just the inherant personality differences that come from having a higher testosterone level. But I'm not sure. As far as my "relationship with masculinity", I like masculinity, and generally women are more attracted to it. I like the feeling of wanting to compete amongst other males. Not because I want to beat anyone, or because I want others around me to fall short, but because I want to stand out and have a good selection of potential mates. To me I think most of my motivations stem from a desire to have control, control of my destiny, control of my sex life, control of my ability to provide for myself and others, control of my body and mind. Masculinity I think is a by-product character trait that comes from a natural drive in some form. It connects with your overall character, so I don't think it's necessary a completely good or completely bad thing, depends on the person.
I guess lot's of people consider it "toxic" these days, but I wouldn't want to change my personality to meet the standards of what i believe is a small group of vocal people.
Then you've never been confronted with a challenge that demands such sacrifice. You can't understand what this decision and sacrifice looks like until its presented to you and live through it. IE, you haven't experience what it is to be male in a Western society: you potentially occupy the space of women and children. Many men do these days. Consider the 30 year old man playing vidya, and enjoying super hero movies in their affordable 1 bedroom. You simply can't experience what masculinity is if that is the world you exist within, that's straight up a child's world.
Imagine being this mad at a book
love the response very good advice you have given it is a lesson for all
>I just really want an easygoing life where I can live up to my obligations and take care of people in my life which in many ways is a definite feminine or androgynous take on things.
I wouldn't say thats feminine or androgynous at all. It is normal for either gender to want to just create a happy life for the people around them. It doesn't make it androgynous just because it is a shared trait, it just makes it human more than anything, though we tend to add nuance to any given scenario using our gender.
Your post is the embodiment of the thread I hoped to achieve by the way. Personal ramblings about your own relationship to masculinity, some poetic insights on it, and comfy wording.
I think I relate to you on some points. It often feels like I am all sorts of people, but not wholly. Sometimes I like I'm just a quite old man, and sometimes I feel like I'm still an energetic and silly child. I had a friend who had a really unique backstory for that sort of feeling, but it isn't exactly the place for it.
instructions means an "order." you can't order anyone to talk about anything, because then its not a conversation, its a dictatorship. I understand where you're coming from but you cant expect everyone to dance to your tune. If you don't like what user has to say, don't reply. he replied how he thought he should, whether it was OT or not.
check out this faggot
Not menstruating and giving birth kicks a lot of ass
>Then you've never been confronted with a challenge that demands such sacrifice.
When my best friend got sick in late 2018, I gave up everything to take care of him. I lost every connection I had in the world, closed down our business, and spent every waking moment trying to keep him alive for nine months so that he wouldn't be forced to go to the nursing home where his children had left him before I got him out of there.
As is how these things go, he did inevitably perish. I kept him alive much longer than the doctors thought he could live (9 months as opposed to 2 weeks), but by the end of it I had nothing left. Even the things he had left for me to have were taken by his children. There were no friends, no women, no money around by the time he was gone. It was something I did just to keep him as happy and healthy as I could for the last of his days.
Just because I don't relate to the idea of comfy being exclusively created for others through sacrifice doesn't mean I can't relate to it non-exclusively. I can still just enjoy star gazing with friends at a beach and know it to be comfy.
It is, though, an inherently feminine trait. It's existing to both genders, as both genders have an animal and animus, but there is femininity in masculinity. Gaia energy, so to speak.
*anima whoops
It's not a dictatorship, I hold no power. Me replying does nothing to alter the course of his life any more than he allows it to. All it does is remind him that this is the point of the conversation.
Again, you cannot say that Sup Forums is a dictatorship or that it is devoid of conversation just because it has rules, instructions and topics.
Name calling is clearly a desperate grab for power, js
I don't understand how it is inherently feminine. You can say its culturally feminine I suppose, but if it is the natural instinct of both genders to take care of those around them in some way shape or form, than how is it feminine? If you really do mean spiritually basic, as indicated by the gaia energy, I guess that is a borderline religious belief and I can't argue it, I just don't agree with it either.
Like I mentioned, there is an anima, a feminine component of the male psyche. That capacity to care lives inside the anima. Its not spirituality, its psychology.
Where does that come from that it separates it from man?
i've found throughout my life masculinity has been quite challenging. on one hand i've always been down for a fight or a fuck, but the latter has left me with many female friends. you find comfort in the nature in which they act, their emotions, body, etc. but at the end of the day it leaves you questioning your masculinity. my closest friend is a female, i have many male friends. the most masculine thing you can do, to me, is be comfortable with your own masculinity and sexuality. at the end of the day it doesn't fucking matter.
Carl Jung, swiss psychologist, did a lot of work in the masculine and the feminine. He found, throughout his life, that there are traits instinctual to both genders. Then, there is the anima and animus, which are the components of the opposite gender. That protective care comes from the feminine, as it has been examined in our own species, and especially in closely neighboring species.
I like to think I am more masculine than most men these days, but who knows. I hated my mom as she was a bipolar alcoholic completely incapable of taking caring of anyone, let alone her self, so I was drawn to my dad. While he did some basic things, taught me to play sports and work out, he really lacked in a lot of ways and withdrew from us kids when we hit our teen years.
I still think I'm a pussy in a lot of ways. I just say what others expect of me in most social situations, or mostly I just blank in everyday casual conversation. I'm not afraid to stand my ground in situations though, but I am averse to confrontation.
I'm very driven and passionate, and have my discipline that I am good at: mathematics. I am studying to become a mathematician, so I am intellectually quite secure around others, and am not afraid of a good, intellectual argument about a lot of things. I also started working out more and standing up straight with shoulders back.
>you find comfort in the nature in which they act, their emotions, body, etc
I feel like this is true for most men, but I think something might be 'deviant' in me in that regard. I think it was the case when I was younger, but something got 'worn out' in a way. When I was younger I moved around a lot and it meant I was able to date rather easily. Girls didn't know any of my history so I was just a stranger they could project positive things onto. By the time I moved out on my own I was just exhausted by romance and just didn't have an interest in pursuing it. I thought it would return, but it really hasn't, instead I've just dived deeper into this exploration of masculinity, friendship, and the less talked about dynamics that men can share such as mentorship or rivalry.
Its awesome you have found success in the field of masculinity.
Although, per your opening sentence, you run the risk of destroying your masculinity. Ego and the masculine can't really exist in the same atmosphere. Like the user above, the brony. Instead of switching gears, he got defensive and kept recommending his book instead of admitting he was wrong.
But how does it come from the other gender if it is innate in both? Is it something that would essentially not exist without a female presence in your life, and thus it is just learned? And if not, if you are born with it, then how can it really be a female trait? That is what confuses me about it. And if it can be learned from the female then why isn't learned from other men who already have this anima?
I'm curious how different I would be if my family wasn't quite what it was. I had similar issues with my mother, but she was the primary parent in our lives. My father was in and out and when he was in it was an 'avoid at all cost' situation with him. My brother and I had similar upbringings but he came out more 'traditionally masculine', whereas I did not so much. It wasn't until I got older that I started looking into the 'manly' hobbies.
I wonder what made us so different.
When an individual denies his own femininity, there are very specific traits that leave him. I could go on and on, but Jung does a far better job of explaining it than I. I recommend checking out his work.
Careful, don't recommend a book to OP, he doesn't like that
Don't be retarded, this user actually read the OP and participated in a real conversation. It kinda proves how dumb you are if you still are reducing it to that though.
>still are
I havent replied once in this thread you fuckhead
You could literally just yin & yang and convey the idea of balance that way.
Well I don't think someone is entirely just one thing or not unless someone is profoundly broken or unfulfilled in some way. Most CEOs have families as do pro athletes and actors. It's just that we dont normally see people discuss their feelings outside of prose and image board threads like these and even then people dont easily stay in tune with themselves in the first place.
>I was a fan of My Little Pony
seems the faggotness is deeply embedded in you, ma'am
Bump
Bumping
OP here, I'm about to go to bed for the night. As a general rule a thread will do better if you respond to existing posts as opposed to just bumping, or by adding more to the conversation that hasn't been said yet.
Just wrote a pretty big paper on this subject and cited you guys occasionally as to how masculinity is trending. It's cool this manifested as a thread.
There used to always be threads like this, it was nice. It wasn't this particular topic, but there were just threads of discussion instead of porn sharing and 'general' themes that get reused.
I like comfy threads, but they are much more fun when people try to add a twist, a theme, or just a hook for some dialogue.
I was molested by my baby sitter at a young age.
I grew up in a semi-dysfunctional all-female household.
My father, though separate from my main family, was able to provide for me financially but lacked that "fatherly" component (ie. advice about women, friends, dealing with the world in general)
I remember outings with my cousin's family and feeling "incomplete" because their father stayed in the household and regularly engaged them in conversations.
I believe everything I've learned about being a man has come partially from my father, but mostly from my peers. I often compare my actions and feelings with my peer-group to gauge my normalcy and masculinity.
Its unfortunate but even the best part time dad is still only there part time. You aren't seeing a man live his life and learning his subtle ways. The advice and conversations and questions are all important, but we learn so much about being a man in a subconscious way, just by watching our father and the little things he does.
I believe so, too. Perhaps the father figure does not necessarily have to be the biological father. Would you differentiate between masculinity and manliness?
>Perhaps the father figure does not necessarily have to be the biological father.
I would say that is true. The more male influence a boy has the more he will learn about males in general I think. Whether its a father, a step-father, an uncle, a neighbor, what have you.
> Would you differentiate between masculinity and manliness?
I never really thought of that. They're both kind of vaguely defined terms, it's hard to say what one has that the other doesn't. I think to say a woman is masculine can be a compliment, but to call her manly might be an insult.
>through sacrifice and pain.
Bearing such a cross must weigh as heavily on the mood of a household as a gothic film governess does. Of course the naturals take to fatherhood with a lighter heart, but since this is Sup Forums it's not always clear whose bitchiness is real.
I was raised with a really dysfunctional sense of masculinity by my deeply troubled and stupid father. I had no sense of self worth or appreciation for my ability to accomplish things. Every milestone I cleared was more about finishing something to get away from it, rather than experience it constructively.
Well into my 20's I had little appreciation for hard work. I think the ability to work doggedly and challenge yourself is essential to be masculine. Self worth started taking root when I did some roofing work. Then I became a sprinkler installer. Then a roofer again, briefly a fence installer (shit pay), sprinklers again, and then I got the most potentially lucrative job I've ever had: being the only reliable person on a 3 man team (including the business owner) operating a set of vineyards and orchards.
I got fucking strong doing this work. I was strong before, stronger than I looked, but I was baking under the sun solo pruning like 3 miles of vines a day a time. With a chainsaw. This was some real redneck shit.
I think being masculine involves having evident power and CONTROL. Control over your actions, emotions, and words. I still have a lot to work out as a byproduct of having a piss poor example of masculinity to aspire to, but I'm as strong as I've ever been (figuratively and literally) and I enjoy life in ways I didn't before.