what is the counter argument to this
What is the counter argument to this
James Bell
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Alexander Hughes
that it cherry picked verses or completely made them up just like isis does
Juan Roberts
Despite the .jpg compression artifacts, there are still more pixels than truth to that image.
Grayson Barnes
Only enforced if the victim is another muslim.
These rules do not apply to infidels, all non-muslims are open season.
Austin Adams
Bottom right is literally the opposite of what Islam teaches and the rest either only apply to other muslims or are simply untrue
Zachary Phillips
Only counts for a specific sect of Islam
Dominic Cox
How about we start with sauce on each statement?
William Powell
can I get a source on that? I believe you 100% but I just want a source to look at. The verse or whatever in their shitty book would be nice
Jeremiah Ortiz
The counter argument is that during war religious people only remember the violent parts of their book and discard the merciful parts whenever they got the upper hand.
Noah Ortiz
Shame that he didn't follow those rules himself :^)
Logan Carter
that it doesn't apply to infidels
Caleb Ward
Most verses that say things like this are qualified with a "can't do to an innocent" which is lovely at first glance, isn't that wonderful.
Then you think "What defines an innocent person in the context of the Quran and the hadiths?"
Answer? Other muslims.
You're not an innocent in their eyes because you're not a muslim, which is an offence to them, making you not innocent by default.
Thus none of these nice fluffy rules apply.
John Morris
muhammad in actuality did all those things, historically.
Liam Parker
Surah 2;106. Anything in the Koran can be cancelled out by a later verse. It's easy to find the peaceful stuff early in it, when Muslims were a minority, without acknowledging that it's all cancelled out by later verses from when Mo had enough manpower to use violence to get his way.
Xavier Richardson
Thank me later.
Colton Rodriguez
my counter is... sauce?
Juan Torres
Reality
Adam Diaz
This.
Which isn't actually made up.
Also, Muhammad burned crops during siege.
Angel Brooks
>doesn't say anything about rape
>mfw
Evan Garcia
Taqqiya.
Noah Lopez
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
Here’s my contribution:
APOSTASY: thereligionofpeace.com
WOMEN WORTH LESS: thereligionofpeace.com
FRIENDSHIP WITH JEWS AND CHRISTIANS: thereligionofpeace.com
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM: thereligionofpeace.com
SLAVERY: thereligionofpeace.com
DEMOCRACY: thereligionofpeace.com
LYING: thereligionofpeace.com
STEALING: thereligionofpeace.com
HOMOSEXUALITY: thereligionofpeace.com
POLYGAMY: thereligionofpeace.com
DIVORCE: thereligionofpeace.com
WIFE BEATING: thereligionofpeace.com
MEN IN CHARGE OF WOMEN: thereligionofpeace.com
VERSES OF VIOLENCE: thereligionofpeace.com
WHY THE KORAN IS NOT FROM ALLAH: thereligionofpeace.com
CONTRADICTIONS IN THE KORAN: answering-islam.org
MYTHS ABOUT MUHAMMAD: thereligionofpeace.com
ADULTERY AND STONING: thereligionofpeace.com
MYTHS OF ISLAM: thereligionofpeace.com
10 OTHER REASONS TO EXPLAIN WHY ISLAM ISN’T A RELIGION OF PEACE: thereligionofpeace.com
THE SCIENCE IN THE KORAN: answering-islam.org
Chase Gutierrez
I think this is the point
All these rules only apply to fellow brethren, there are other verses on how to treat unberivers depending on if you are "at war".
With no reform, there will continue to be pockets of chaos
Levi Myers
>what is the counter argument to this
reality
Dylan Martinez
Atheism
James Bailey
But they don t follow that either .. Shia vs sunni is the perfect example , they hate eachother .
Jose Wood
Meant to quote Also, this:
MUHAMMAD, THE « PROPHET » OF ISLAM, WAS A BARBARIAN PEDOPHILE AND HE KILLED INNOCENT INFIDELS.
wikiislam.net
wikiislam.net
thereligionofpeace.com
thereligionofpeace.com
270 millions of people killed by the political act of jihad
politicalislam.com
Muslim Inbreeding: Impacts on intelligence, sanity, health and society:
en.europenews.dk
Carson Roberts
>don't enforce Islam
But Mohamed enforced Islam. He destroyed Mecca to enforce Islam and now Muslims pray to Mecca specifically because Islam was forced upon its people long ago
Fucking christ
Jacob Moore
>don't disfigure
>don't kill wimmins
>don't kill animals
>surrendered
>buildings
>the entire fucking image
TAKYON
David Garcia
does this mean every catholic who commits a sin is no longer catholic?
Camden Robinson
I FORBID YOU
IN THE NAME OF ALL MUSLIMS
Christopher Sanchez
>The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
more if you follow the link
Jose Hernandez
The verse of the Holy Quran is often mentioned to malign Islam. The verse does not say infidels it says idolaters. (9:5) And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
Oliver Brown
I believe it was 5:23 that specified to not kill anyone who is considered innocent and then the next verse says infidels aren't innocent
Cameron Johnson
I took this off a pro Islam site and it still has to backtrack and put things into weird perspective so that should show you how great of a religion it is
Angel Hall
Both of those groups believe the other group is not truly Islam. Isis believes itself to be the caliphate so anyone who struggles against them is a nonmuslim by definition.
Andrew Powell
And it's not even that they're stupid because they're obstinate-- apparently, Allah just randomly makes certain people non-believers, with the intent that they be killed by good and proper muslims.
So, whenever they kill kafir, it's never not justified-- allah willed them to die, why else would he make them blind to the "obvious" truth that is islam?
Thomas Miller
I went to an exam where the quran was one of my chosen subject, which mean I've been through it pretty thoroughly. I'm pretty sure none of theese things appear in the quran and if they do then they are mentioned with exceptions which there are a lot of in the quran.
Also, why are they obsesed over this? No radical muslim follows the quran anyways since the quran clearly states how you must not submit to other states than the muslim caliphate, plus it commands you to wage warfare against heathens. Those parts are kinda written explicit.
Also even using the quran as an argument is retarded seeing how it is completely filled with contradictions. Just look up the satanic verses for example.
Hudson Bennett
Lmao silly kuffars
Your Day is coming
الله أكبر
Landon Lee
...
William Bell
kek'd
Adrian Nguyen
The bible says to feed the poor, tend to the sick, and befriend the hated. Yet today you're told that Christianity is a source of much evil in the world.
Zachary Ward
The violent verses in the Quran narrate the persecution of Muslims and their use of violence in defense.
Jacob Morgan
I only read about 1/3 of it so far but you're spot on with the comment about the exceptions. I don't think I found a single commandment from dietary restrictions to prayer that didn't end with "but you can ignore all this in x circumstance btw."
Benjamin Lewis
If they ever read the Quran they'd know it's a Muslim's duty to enforce Islam
Gabriel Barnes
based Manuel Jose Santos da Silva Oliveira do Sousa
Brandon Walker
>Don't enforce Islam
Lol missed that part in the first gander. Haha, that is simply made up. If there's one thing you can be absolute certain that the quran does then it is encouraging muslims to enforce islam.
Levi Ross
Great so its only Buddhist that they do this too, and maybe those south Americans that parade around statues of Mary ect..
Owen Perez
>The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule
So it was a coincidence that the Muslims were being persecuted and they had no choice but to fight back. Luck was on their side and they had an excuse to expand Islamic rule. How are these websites even taken seriously?
Asher Harris
>Sup Forums is literally so retarded that they don't refute it by simply pointing out that MUHAMMAD HAS FUCKING RULES FOR WAR.
>As in, war is okay as long as you DON'T do this shit
You cucks are so fucking stupid that it's not even funny.
The answer is staring you right in the fucking face, and you're completely missing it because of how fucking retarded you are.
I hope you feel utterly embarrassed after reading this post.
Isaac Ross
>absolute certain
Well then you should have plenty of evidence. And if you're going to start misinterpreting verses I'll just ignore you.
Luke Thomas
Why did Muhammad do all of these then?
Jordan Ortiz
What about those ancient Islamic statues in Syria?
Muslim artifacts seen as blasphemous idols by ISIS
This is the real problem, religion is not science, you can change the meaning, interpret it differently and use things to excuse horrendous actions as long as you call yourself a believer
Luis Hall
>t. CAIR
See this and this Kys pedophile
Bentley Wilson
This.
Really the book is interesting if you're interested in understanding how ancient jura and laws were build up and managed. If you're going to read it to debate muslims you shouldn't bother because the majority of muslims haven't read it, they make up a lot of shit and claim it as a matter of interpretation, lol. Also, it is custom that muslims don't read the quran as they have the imam to preach it for them in the mosques. Even Muhammed were illeterate, so he had several different Imams write the quran for him.
Christopher Perry
Good point I mean Christian during the Roman persecutions were willing to be tortued because they believed in their peaceful God
The fact that jihad even exists shows you that Islam has warmongering tendencies, even if they do has certain standards
Noah Barnes
He's absolutely right, though.
The Quran is extremely iffy when it comes to enforcing Islam.
Muhammad frequently makes comments like "Converting people is easier when you chop off their hands", and is completely literal when he says it.
And the verses like "People can't be compelled towards islam" are more about statements of faith and belief rather than. As in, if people don't believe what they practice, then enforcing it isn't useful.
Joseph Ward
It's 2016!!
Julian Thompson
The part with the forbidden months have already been posted in the thread several times, what is your stance on those examples?
Alexander Cook
As a cucked Frenchman, I can fairly tell you: don’t be naive about islam. Really, stay far from this plague.
Kayden Bailey
youtube.com
All that website does is list verses
Jose Gomez
wtf i hate western civilization now
Nathan Gonzalez
What about the one kill all the unbelievers wherever you find them, left that one out...
Nicholas Russell
To be fair though, later Christian thinkers like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas elaborated on just war theories as well. Other religions have done the same. I don't think his point is as strong as he seems to think it is. All religions have dealt with rules for war.
Camden Ortiz
>And the verses like "People can't be compelled towards islam" are more about statements of faith and belief rather than respecting the religions of others.
I stopped midsentence with that thought for some reason.
Not sure why.
Elijah Green
You know about abrogation right?
Wyatt Jenkins
>media wont show you this
the media shills for islam though
Jaxon Rogers
Didn't some Muslim piece of shit just stab am eight year old on a beach?
Robert Sanders
...
Jackson Cooper
Are you talking about the assyrian winged bull? Those were VERY pre-islamic.
Adam Torres
Which isn't the issue. The inagreement lies in wether Isis are real muslims or not and most of us say that if you're dumb enough to base your dogma in an ancient book then Isls are considered real muslims.
Connor Flores
>And the verses like "People can't be compelled towards islam" are more about statements of faith and belief rather than. As in, if people don't believe what they practice, then enforcing it isn't useful.
Yep. And in those circumstances, you have Allah's permission to slaughter them.
Julian Gomez
Stephen Coughlin's book Catastrophic Failure.
No one who has failed to read this book has an opinion worth your attention. You must read this book if you want to understand anything about Islam.
Tldr; Muslims are lying using a sort of Orwellian newspeak. Coughlin explains this amid a crash course in "jurispruence," which is the totalitarian but semi-decentralized legal system all Muslims must obey as binding law and not just a ritual matter.
Thus a person without Coughlin is still in Plato's cave, exchanging meaningless illusions, never approaching truth.
Michael Moore
All religions maybe
All prophets/messiahs? No
Call me crazy but someone perverting the teachings of a peace lover seems a lot better than someone directly obeying a warmonger
Nicholas Gomez
lies
Connor Foster
I read Ibn Warraq's What the Koran Really Says. I got basically the same message-- Damned book was long as shit, basically a collection of essays more than a book of real prose, but I felt compelled.
Gavin Long
Talking about this
mobile.nytimes.com
But my point is basically if you can call anyone who likes a certain object an idolater, then you're allowed to kill anyone
Sebastian Wood
Yes I do, but how is that any different from just re-interperting verses? If Isis thinks that some of the violent verses are more essential and some of the other verses should be abrogiated, how does that make Isis any less muslim?
Aaron Anderson
When you point out all the horrific shit in the Quran about murdering your enemies and enforcing Sharia law, they say you shouldn't take everything literally and point to old bible verses as proof that all religions are violnt.
When Isis start enacting these violent policies they point to these peaceful parts and say that ISIS actually aren't following the Quaran closely enough, therefore thay aren't real muslims.
Easton Martinez
And according to most Muslims, all other groups of Muslims are not true Muslims so rules don't apply to them.
Kevin Lewis
He looks happy. He had fun.
Oliver Evans
keep posting mate, very nice
Hunter Nelson
Which is why the "he's not a real muslim" arguement is retarded.
Isaiah Sanders
Coughlin's writing is a pleasure to the autist. It is exactly the kind of logical box construction that one wishes all law students learned. It is frequently interrupted with quotations, repeated in their entirety, so that you will cone to recognize them as a Muslim would. Like the Bible, certain passages are very frequently quoted while others are obscure except to seminarians. It is maddening rather than boring.
There is nothing else like this book and no opnion uninformed by it can matter.
Easton Flores
Where in the new testament do you find violent and war encouraging parts? Quick reminder that book of revelations is a vision and not a war encouragement.
Nathan Gray
strange theres no rule against killing men in their prime
anyone else notice it?
Oliver Edwards
He's not a true Scotsman!
Joshua Mitchell
Smells like Taqiya.
Zachary Phillips
So I am to understand that you have no counter arguement?
Carson Peterson
>I get to call the dictionary wrong when I'm checking your privilege
>Shut up bigot the book says you're wrong about islam
John Barnes
"the media wont show you this."
When has the media ever reported anything about radical islam
Jeremiah Bailey
nytimes.com
al-Baghdadi has a doctorate degree in islamic studies. im fairly certain he has a deeper understanding of islam than some meme pick and that he has read the quoran plenty of times.
Nathaniel Phillips
The way out of your problem is Stephen Coughlin's book Catastrophic Failure, because it explains how that very sorting process works.
Short version, the "infallible pope" of Islam is the "consensus of all the scholars." Religious scholars in Islam are legal authorities, something like high level judges with legislative power. They don't always agree on everything but they do pretty much agree on three quarters of everything, which is plenty, and which includes all the bad stuff. Abrogation (the mooting of Meccan pacifist verses by warlike Medinan verses) is just like Joseph Smith defeating accusations of con artistry by insulting his accuser and requiring a new revelation in the South Park episode on Mormonism. It's not every verse potentially fighting with every other verse, there is a very settled and thoroughly gone over order that was established, and it's simplified with the two categories of Meccan (the very beginning if Islam, when Muslims had to play nice) and Medinan (Islam stands up as a proposition state hungry for land) verses.
Lucas Murphy
Seems pretty normal to me.
Gabriel Rodriguez
Oh I'm not making that argument. The Koran is perfectly clear that verses that come later chronologically take precedence. And guess which verses come later? They're not the ones where Mohammad was an upstart that had to make nicey-nice with the ruling families of mecca and their thousand idols, I'll tell you that.
About the biggest way the verses of the koran can be manipulated is by re-translating scripture. It was written in a pre-islamic poetic tradition, so every fourth verse or so is a non-sequitur that can be translated in many different ways.
Also, Muslims can't understand the Koran. It's a bunch of gibberish to them, being ancient poetry, so they need their clergy to understand it for them.
Even given all this, there are huge technical obstacles if you want to try and re-translate it as peaceful.
James Long
This guy is good at explaining these type of things on his channel:
youtube.com
Samuel James
did you know that murder was illegal in nazi germany? that's right! those guys who killed all the jews obviously weren't REAL nazis!
Jason Murphy
You wouldn't need to read it more than once to see that it legitimizes violence. You would need a lot to understand Islam today. The ladder is not in my interest since I do not want them to live in my country, regardless of race or religion.
Brandon Cooper
he did literally all of those
Owen Evans
Worth reading this post. Has a good point
Noah Wilson
The counter argument isthat its factually inaccurate. Read up on when Muhammad returned to mecca. Fucktard