What exactly is Obamacare and why conservatives dislike it so much?

What exactly is Obamacare and why conservatives dislike it so much?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health_insurance_option
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system_in_Japan
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From what I know, and I'm totally going off what I hear, is basically you have to have insurance or you can get in legal trouble just for not having it, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

In the united states we have private health insurance. Insurance used to be emergency coverage for catastrophic expense (e.g. need lots of surgery and can't work), but now it's necessary to have if you want to pay market price for healthcare (and not some insane amount like 10,000 for an ER visit). There are a variety of factors that led to this, but not really relevant.

Anyway, a lot of Americans don't have health insurance at all, or the health insurance that they do have doesn't actually cover them for the medical expenses they're likely to incur. Most people who do have insurance get it through their employer; you can get private individual insurance but it's prohibitively expensive.

The biggest effect of Obamacare is that it 1.) requires everyone to have health insurance or pay a tax penalty 2.) subsidizes individual (e.g. non-employer) health insurance, theoretically making it more affordable (which it has in some markets).

Conservatives don't like it because it increased taxes on certain things and is literally the government taxing you into buying something. A lot of them also don't like the way it was rammed through congress without representatives getting to read the damn bills in some cases.

There are also a lot of MUH HARD WORK MUH SOCIALISM MUH POOR DESERVE TO DIE people who don't understand what it's about, but there are a lot of shit things about it.

I bet those health insurance company profits skyrocketed after it was passed.

Here's my burger experience

1. When I was 18-24 I bougth my own health insurance. It cost about $70-90 dollars per month. (increasing as you get older)
The deductible was $1000 per year, everything above that would be covered. They gave free yearly exams for dental, etc. It was blue cross second from best.

2. When obamacare rolled out, my insurer told me the plan would have to be discontinued. I let it expire after seeing the new rates.


3. Now if I want to get insured, I have to pay around $400/month just for shit obamacare that has a $6500 deductible. Also, the number of doctors (providers) that now accept mainstream insurance has dropped to about 1/3 of what it was a few years ago. I had to switch dentists 3 times because they each kept dropping the policy I got.


4. Now I am getting set up with Medi-share which is a religion-exemption cost sharing scheme. At least if I get in a car accident, I won't go bankrupt and owe the hospital $5 million. It costs $180/mo for this. It has a $1200 "deductible" which is all in all far better than Obummercare.


Obamacare was designed to fuck things up royally, and it has succeeded well.

Also, the cost of Obamacare is supposedly subsidized - but you still have to pay the full price per month. Then at the end of the year, the subsidy is applied to your tax return.

So I would have to pay over $500/mo just to have useless insurance that nobody accepts.

>Every unpaid voice, left and right, in the years before Obamacare:
THESE INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE OUT OF CONTROL. They are demonstrably harming people. We need to reform or change how insurance companies dominate medicine, hamstring doctors and murder and impoverish patients.
>President Obama:
I have heard your complaints about health care in America. Therefore, ALL POWER TO THE INSURANCE COMPANIES!

It uses law (tax penalties against individuals and other laws against insurance companies who in the past would deny coverage) to extend healthcare insurance to millions of uninsured Americans.

The problem is that Obamacare did not provide any direct funding or resources to our health care system to deal with these millions of new patients. The cost would theoretically be offset by savings in the future (less ER visits because everyone has a primary care doc, forcing healthy young males to buy insurance but who won't use it, etc) but this is debatable.

As a result, insurance companies increased their rates on people who already had insurance to ensure they could pay for the newly insured. So in essence, this is a de-facto tax that noone voted for or wanted.

Also, the US health care system doesn't have the personnel or doctors to handle all these patients (a situation that can be seen in the primary care shortage and that will get worse once the Boomers get older and sicker). So it's forced the health care industry into bigger and bigger companies (to ensure profit and a service pool of doctors, etc) and there is less room for small enterprise.

TLDR: Obamacare is to the US health market what Angela Merkel/Sweden, etc and their tolerance of "refugees" is to the European nation state. Flooding the system with people based on ideology (the want to provide health care coverage to more people) with no long-term plan and with bad results for the "native" health-care users.

It has made insurance more expensive for everyone and the only profiteers are the insurance companies.

this
and
this

It was designed to make insurance incredibly expensive, and force people to be more reliant on the government.
The IRS literally charges you every month you don't have insurance.
It's strict coercion under the guise of universal health care

So let me get this straight ObamaCare is making people pay for a service they don't have?

Yes.. Even though I haven't gone to the doctor in ten years I have to pay insurance.

Right wingers cannot into bulk pricing. They don't want to group pay for homeless people. They want complete freedom to overpay for these people by not having anything be compelled. But gun sales? The second amendment is worded like pottery and you get really cheap guns. Bandaids to fix the guns? Not so much. If private insurance is so amazing why is forcing everybody to buy it so bad? Think under the first layer of issues. Canada goes further. We pay half as much. Live longer. Fewer dead babbies. Fewer fatties. More innovation. Muh slavery

It's not that they don't have the service. Uninsured used to get payed for. It's like how you need car insurance but nobody cares how often you drive. Their healthcare is like oil changes for your car, up here

If you are a healthy individual, and want to consider forgoing insurance, the fine is 2.5% of your total household adjusted gross income.

At $110,000, I would have to pay $2,750 for the year.

This sounds like a reasonable way to go so long as I never need the insurance.

They are actually the ones that originally came up with it (herritage foundation in the 90s, nixon etc) and they just hate it because obama liked it.

The fine rises every year so basically no one will go that route by the end of the decade. And you're still throwing $2,750 to the government not to arrest you for avoiding insurance.

The amount goes up to account for "inflation"

>tfw pretty Conservative and agree with Republicans on most things
>Still don't understand their hatred of nationalised healthcare and their obsession with guns

It's like the only thing foreigners think about is guns.

Republicans and democrats worked out this deal that makes it mandatory to pay private insurance or the government for insurance. It's just greasing the pockets of insurance companies and putting strain on Americans. Government should not be helping monopolies. What should've been done was finding away to reduce prices for medical care. The first step in reducing healthcare cost would be to destroy the monopolized health care system we live in.

Why is it that your guys' feds legally cannot own a corporation? That is stupid. Corporations used to need to prove a net benefit to society in order to receive incorporation. Not only do you not do that anymore but you bar the people from owning anything. Do you even own the airspace above your house? Do Canadians? We need based Roman law system not this communal common law garbage

Medicaid is genocide.

MD'S and med students and shit should do undercover expose's.

Go to a medicaid doctor and see how incompetent they are.

FYI to foreigners, in short, medicaid is state healthcare, obamacare expanded it, and only the worst doctors accept it.

Obamacare wouldn't have passed if it weren't for congress. Blame them.

Pay the healthcare for a 400 pound nigress with 8 children and you'll see.

The only way to make medicine cheap is to do what we did. You have hodge podges. We didnt even have interprovincial trade until recently. Now we do. Why? Booze. We want booze apparently. You all are kind of a quilt land. Bleh

But now we yse pensions to pay for roads when that's not weedman's jurisdiction. Ah. Politics. And cut healthcare

But yeah I myself also don't have health insurance. I've pretty much wanted to avoid doing medical stuff most of the time. Ear infection? Wait it out...Stomach Flu? Wait it out Minor case of shingles, (yes fucking shingles at my age)? Wait it out. My doc doesn't like obamacare and does let me see him without insurance but it's still expensive as hell. I am able to get a prescription for 4 dollars at walmart though. CVS wants 20 for the exact same thing.

I also have not been to a dentist in years and at least eyeglass stores like america's best include eye exams when you buy glasses.

Because it's socialism. You're not a commie are you?

They don't mind paying thousands of dollars for a check up, as long as they don't have to give THEIR hard earned money to other undeserving people, it's all good.

Mandatory Federal subsidies of hyper-inflated premiums without actually constricting costs.

Dislike it because the entire industry needs to be anti-trusted, and the FDA needs to give licensing to multiple companies not give monopoly rights to 1.

Whole thing is worst parts of capitalism and socialism and neither's benefits.

he should first fix the reasons why we need healthcare so badly, not just giving it to us when we aren't ready

THE FUCKING COST

The only way to make medicine shitty is to make it free. My family from Prince Edward Island come to NY for medical procedures because of how little they trust Canadian medicine.

It makes it illegal to not buy healthcare from private companies that can charge anything they want.

It also makes it illegal for employers to NOT provide full-time employees with company-paid healthcare. Keywords: full-time. So what a lot of the lower end employers do now is split up one full-time job into two part-time jobs to avoid paying out the ass for insurance.

So yeah. Of course more people are insured now. Of course insurance costs are skyrocketing for 95% of Americans. Of course there are more jobs now. Oh, and now the government gives certain people in the health industry blank checks too. Remember that Martin Shkreli guy? He didn't charge as much as he did for his drugs because he expected poor AIDS patients to buy it. No, it's one of those things Obamacare covers. So he could get away with charging insane amounts of money and the government would pay him whatever.


The only people who win with Obamacare are healthcare service providers, big pharma, and maybe 2% of Americans with serious health issues.

I don't believe so. There has been news that those companies are losing money and are pulling out of the exchanges or are cranking up prices next year.

It's a state subsidized health insurance policy.

Americans don't like government intervention in monopolies..... private corporations skewing market forces and screwing people out of money is more palatable to them.

Damn, i thought that obamacare was a tentative to create actual "free" (tax supported) healthcare, not "now everyone have to buy insurance"

I remember when i learned that everyone in US also is forced to buy auto insurance. That is completely ridiculous. How come you dont actually fight agaisnt those clearly lobbyist policies?

You'd end up like those guys in Oregon who took a state building and held it up. The FBI killed a couple and sent the rest to pound me in the ass rape prison.

In recent years it's been made legal to kill US citizens if the US is at war (which it is perpetually) and it has also bee made legal to use drone strikes on US citizens. Thanks Obama.

There was actually a provision to also have a "public option" so you could use that instead but that part was taken out.

No they put caps and shit on how much they can earn but I believe there is ways to get around this like raising prices ironically enough.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health_insurance_option

Wonder what it would have been like if they were able to keep this.

The biggest problem with American healthcare is that people think health insurance and healthcare are the same thing.

Not to mention the fact that the demand for life saving acute medical intervention is inherently infinitely inelastic yet we insist on a for-profit system with intentionally obscured pricing.

You can't exactly "shop around" for medical care when a drunk driver hits you head on and you have a massive concussion, broken limbs, hemorrhaging, etc.

>Damn, i thought that obamacare was a tentative to create actual "free" (tax supported) healthcare, not "now everyone have to buy insurance"

Everyone that couldn't afford healthcare can get in on Medicaid for free and people that couldn't get covered for pre-existing conditions can now get covered. Everyone that had healthcare now pays more to cover the rest.

>I remember when i learned that everyone in US also is forced to buy auto insurance. That is completely ridiculous. How come you dont actually fight agaisnt those clearly lobbyist policies?

You only need car insurance if you're driving a car. Also, you only need to get coverage for any damage you do to others. You don't need to buy coverage for yourself.

Everyone would pick that and it would go bankrupt because no one is paying into it.

I can not wait until the fucking north wall. Can. Not. Fucking. Wait.

Fucking retards. Every last one of you.

check'd
kek approves

So then what ? Should we all just have single payer?

You should pay for it yourself if you want insurance.

I honestly think "Health insurance" shouldn't be a thing, the prices should be fair without needing a 3rd party involved at all.

>get it checked for """""""free""""""""

Guess they don't teach economics in leaf schools. But then again they really don't in burger land either.

Insurance in general is a scam unless you are a sickly genetic mistake that shouldn't be living anyway. Forcing everyone to pay for insurance makes the scam worse while also overloading the hospitals and such.

All /pol has taught me is there are a lot more stupid trolly Canadians than sane ones.

And I always knew Australians were shitheads but it reaffirmed their ability for banter.

Well I specifically mean health insurance. When it comes to renter/home, car, etc those kind of physical object protection insurance it's a different situation. But your health is not a physical object.

Obamacare forces the young and/or lifestyle-conscious to subsidize the health care of the old and/or reckless.

Healthcare in this country was always a huge scam, but at least you could afford insurance if you were young, healthy, and make good lifestyle choices. In order to get on a plan they at least interviewed you, if not sent an actual nurse/phlebotomist to your home to check your health and blood work. Therefore you got a good price if you were assessed to be lower risk, like any other insurance.

Now, any sprite chugging 500 lb ham galaxy, 65 year old 10 packs a day, and faggots who spent their entire youth in the penis pagoda and got AIDS all HAVE to be covered, and the rest of us HAVE to sign up for the same plans as they do, or else we face a penalty ($625 per person in household for current year).

I cannot afford this bullshit anymore because just to cover myself, my wife and child on the cheapest plans in my state it's like 12-15% of my household income. Absolutely bonkers. We try hard to maintain a healthy lifestyle and exercise every day, eat well, never smoked, don't fuck around, etc.

Now the reward for a lifetime of good choices is a nigger president gets to force us to pay for everyone else's shit or we are screwed if we get in a freak accident or something. Words cannot contain my contempt for the situation.

liberal logic
>Wow these homogenous tiny european countries have universal health care why don't we? Surely it will work just as well in a country bigger than all of fucking europe with millions of lazy dindus who can't take care of themselves
and of course obama being the snake he is pandered to their stupidity to push a corporation serving bill through congress

That is pretty sad. Do anyone there think about a tax redistribution to cover public healthcare? I mean, in the current situation, anyone who wants to have a healthcare is being "taxed", and the money goes to support other people on healthcare.

Why dont cut the middle man that is getting a lot of money (the insurance companies), and do a proper tax redistribution that cover hospitals?

Socialized medicine.

Fuck you and fuck your bills, faggot. That's your responsibility, not mine.

>Insurance administered through private multibillion dollar for-profit corporations is socialized medicine

What.

>forcing people into a gigantic social program so the jews profit off of everyone - including people who don't even use the program
>not socialized [x]
wat

You are not required to have insurance.

And if you live in a state that elected to not expand Medicaid then there is no penalty assessed either.

It is forcing people to buy something under threat of taxing them. In addition if you don't buy it and get taxed, you still aren't covered. So it doesn't help you and you have to pay.

My biggest problem with it is that I am a minwage cuck. So instead of one job at 40 hours a week I now have to work 2 jobs at 25 a week. Obamacare caused most employers to drop everyone down to 29 hours a week because more then that they have to provide insurance.

Yeah, but prior to Obamacare, private insurers were getting out of hand with the "pre-existing condition" bullshit. Suddenly, being slightly chubby or having a few cavities meant being cut out of the bulk of the services. A lot of people were ready to drop health insurance at that point. I don't like subsidizing self-abusers either, but their has to be a reasonable middle ground.

>You are not required to have insurance.
You're right - the government just withholds a certain amount of tax returns on the money they already borrowed [FOR FREE] during the entire year should you choose not to buy any as a young healthy adult male who doesn't need that shit.

>And if you live in a state that elected to not expand Medicaid then there is no penalty assessed either.
Federal taxes aren't the same as state. My state chose not to expand that shit and if I don't have insurance the federal government can still withhold my [FOR FREE] tax dollars.

>their has to be a reasonable middle ground.
"no"

It's shit if you don't have a family.

Didn't make healthcare more accessible to anyone but the dirtest of dirt poor who already had medical coverage through medicare/medicaid

Raised the prices of pretty much every health plan because it suddenly forced you to buy into services you didn't want.

Why is that others fault that you got fat or didn't brush your teeth?

it has forced premiums to go through the roof.. deductibles are thousands of dollars with huge co-pays ..

its a catastrophe for everyone but the people who are too poor to get any at all and so get it free

its gibs me dat

Do you really want to deal with an insurance that arbitrarily denies coverage like that?
>Welp, you were cutting lanes with your bike, we're not paying.
>You were rock climbing without safety gear? Not paying
>Lifting without bending at the knees? I seriously hope you don't expect us to pay for this
Pre-existing conditions put this bullshit up front and wasn't even a good metric since it didn't even factor in usage.

complete fucking bullshit lackey and corrupt system. Its literally something a 12 year old script kiddie would do to scam people out of giving up money or credit card info

Underage b&

If you believe your conditions don't affect your health then why would you buy insurance?

You are aware the exemptions to the Individual Shared Responsibility Provision can be claimed for federal income tax return if you qualify for them.

Right?

The insurance would be for its original intended purpose: emergencies.

As many have already explained, you need insurance in Burgerland for basic service such as checkups as well. Pre-existing conditions creates a catch-22 of wanting service and not having access to those who want to fix their issues.

Ok well there's too many niggers and poor people that have issues and instead of dying like they should they sign up for insurance hiding the fact. Now insurance is forced to take them and is making everyone else pay for it on top of making you pay for your conditions, whether it's stupid or not is beside the point since you are paying more now than you would have been no matter how much you scream about ebil corporations.

>if you qualify for them.
>if

>if
>conjunction
>1. in case that; granting or supposing that; on condition that:
>Sing if you want to. Stay indoors if it rains. I'll go if you do.
>2.even though: an enthusiastic if small audience.
>3. whether: He asked if I knew Spanish.
>4.(used to introduce an exclamatory phrase): If only Dad could see me now!
>5.when or whenever: If it was raining, we had to play inside.

Wow. If my benevolent overlords deems me worthy, I can opt out of their authoritative program. Really great to know! Thank you, overlords! Please don't kill me for disagreeing with you in this thread...

Do you bitch this much about the The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956?

Just curious.

Anyone else here not buy insurance and pay out of pocket? Yearly doctor visits cost max $200 without extra testing and whatnot. Compared with $2000 I was paying for health insurance premiums per year, I think it's affordable. Since my state doesn't offer subsidized plans, my 'no-coverage' tax is waived by the government.

Realize this is coming from a relatively healthy young male who would reevaluate insurance options as his health deteriorates. It's not a great deal for younger generations.

Might as well ask here since I have been wondering. If you get serious injury, say spinal damage, in car accident, but dont have health insurance... what happens? Does the ambulance pick you up? Does the hospital save your life?

right wingers donate 6x more money than left wingers

SIX

FUCKING

TIMES

MORE

for every dollar your humanitarian "leftists" donate, we donate 6 dollars. so yes, we deserve the burgers

Left wingers are more likely to be violent criminals

Left wingers are also more likely to genocide a large portion of your population.

Hospitals are required to provide emergency care. What happens after that depends on how much money you have and how forgiving creditors are.

You look a bit like an asshole here. This is about ObamaCare, which literally should be unconstitutional. Pay $1000 for something you may never need or want or pay a $300 fine for choosing not to pay for the thing you may not need or want (just using numbers, i don't know the exact values). How did that even happen, and who let it happen? The problem with ObamaCare, is that nobody seems to have chosen, it just fucking happened.

Canadians pay tax for our healthcare, but it was chosen. When asked if we're okay with it, 80% say yes. Don't know who the other 20% are, or why they don't like not having to pay for healthcare at use.

How well Obamacare works for you depends entirely on what the companies offer for your location.

Personally, I get pre-subsidy 300 a month health insurance with a 500 deductible and 750 cash out of pocket plus $5-$10 doctors visits. Once I get my subsidy it's great. It's entirely because of competition, however. People who live in places that don't have a lot of competition (read: not major cities) are fucked.

Because he subsidized insurance at the expense of the poorest Americans.

No, and stop trying to change the subject and deflect from the topic that we are all talking about, President Obama.

In theory: HEALTH INSURANCE 4 EVERYONE WOO FREE MARKET

In practice:

Well, you're forced to buy it or you face an insane tax penalty. You take care of yourself and will take your chances? Lol go fuck yourself.

You may choose the $250/mo, $251/mo, or $255/mo policy that covers absolutely nothing. Oh you want the one that got rave reviews and is $50 cheaper? LOL TOUGH LUCK DIPSHIT ITS NOT IN YOUR AREA.

Oh you make more than $16k per year? Have fun paying $250/mo for nothing faggot! That money could be going to hundreds of other things but no, you gotta give Blue Cross its shekels.

Hearing some of this insurance prices makes me glad I have a job with decent insurance. $120/month, $25 doctor visit, $1000 deductible. I don't know what the hell I'd do otherwise

I just wish the US had a multipayer system like Japan, where the gov pays for 70% of the healthcare and private citizens pay 30%. But our politicians are too retarded to come up with such a plan.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system_in_Japan

Because you cant choose the doctor under obamacare. Healthcare in USA was already overragulated and overinsured, that was the problem, that caused immense healthcare bills for some operations without any real quality.

Obongo exterminated the remains of the market-factor.

Right.

So earlier we established that you didn't have any clue about federal exemptions for the penalty. I cleared that up for you and you went on some authoritarian sperg of some flavor.

Are there any other perceived oppressions you would like to discuss?

Surely you are aware that even before the ACA your hard earned monies went to the healthcare of the uninsured anyway. Unless you think that emergency room visits wherein hospitals are required by law to stabilize patients don't incur any costs to said hospital or cause them to seek higher charges on people that had the ability to pay in order to cover shortfalls.

And we both know that preventative healthcare is significantly cheaper than acute care, which was the entire point to providing insurance to increase accessibility to basic preventative healthcare and such. Though there is great debate on whether this intended goal of "preventative medicine through increasing the providing of insurance to the population" has really manifest.

I myself would argue that the proliferation of insurance hasn't really increased prevention of acute illnesses all that much, due to a combination of past perceptions of shortcoming of the medical system and the general lack of medical literacy in the population at large.

Just to make sure we are on the same level, which of these options is the least expensive to the patient and the system?

1. A diabetic who has poor glucose control goes into the system to obtain education on hyperglycemia, proper dietary considerations, and options for pharmacological and non-pharmacological control of diabetes

2. A diabetic patient who never seeks any medical attention of his condition at all until he is admitted into the ED with DKA and acute cellulitis, which can easily progress to osteo involvement which would require a 6-month course of treatment with vancomycin or daptomycin with a twice daily infusion in outpatient services

>make too much money for subsidized healthcare
>too poor to afford the basic $250 a month insurance plans
>get penalized for it

fucking thanks obama

>So earlier we established that you didn't have any clue about federal exemptions for the penalty
False.

>Surely you are aware that even before the ACA your hard earned monies went to the healthcare of the uninsured anyway.
False again.

>Unless you think that emergency room visits wherein hospitals are required by law to stabilize patients don't incur any costs to said hospital or cause them to seek higher charges on people that had the ability to pay in order to cover shortfalls.
Right, but I had insurance before - like someone who isn't completely retarded, so their lawyers would tell the hospital and their lawyers to fuck right off their exorbitant charges.
And if I didn't have insurance, I would go in and tell them that I can't pay a gorillion dollars for that surgery and they would lower the costs and negotiate a payment plan with me because they know they can't get blood out of a turnip. Jesus Christ man, this is basic knowledge.

>And we both know that preventative healthcare is significantly cheaper than acute care
Yes, buy your own preventative healthcare, faggot. It isn't my problem.

>Just to make sure we are on the same level, which of these options is the least expensive to the patient and the system?
>1. A diabetic who has poor glucose control goes into the system to obtain education
>2. A diabetic patient who never seeks any medical attention
You're deflecting again. Let me reiterate:

Fuck you. Fuck your diabetes. And most importantly: fuck your bills. I have absolutely zero responsibility to help you out with that shit. You're an adult. If you can't figure out how to manage your shit, then fuck off and die in the ditch.

Also if in certain states: >state not expanding medicaid so you can't get that either.

I am someone who always needed insurance

This fuckfest had every idiot liberal actually say and some to ME that we need it so people can have healthcare, as if people are so stupid they can't do it themselves or as if companies don't already offer discounts in health insurance

This year has been the absolute WORST year I've ever had with insurance, and I didn't even have a surgery and I DON'T want it, even if a septoplasty would make me breath in my nose again, all of my numbers have gone up, deductable is shitty and at $3000 when do 5-6 years ago it was $500, even IN network my blood labs was $300 with a $50 copay Everytime I had to go to the fucking cardiologist, with one less visit when a test wasn't covered at all

Now Obama is SUING Anthem for trying to merge two large insurance companies, Cigna and Humana, and they say it is to help "keep insurance competitive"

So now we're going to have basically half our private insurance companies, because those three are very large, in a legal battle against the government

It was going to be a fuckfest, it is a fuckfest, and will be a fuck fest

Trump either needs to open state borders for healthcare or make a single payer to clean this mess

Option C

A diabetic who stops eating shit food and exercises and never smokes or drinks

The government can't control the all too important health factor that is lifestyle, which is why your argument collapses and always will collapse every time another idiot makes that case

Basically i makes more economic sense for me to work very part time and pay nothing for insurance than work close to full time and pay out the ass for insurance. While I do enjoy the tons of free time I have, this can't be a sustainable system in the long run.