Islam Creep

When western civilisation finally collapses and the Islamic caliphate (or some version of it, depending on what kinds of reforms take place in Islam over the next century) finally takes over, will ideas like "civilisation", "democracy" and "rational scepticism" completely die out, or will they be survive but be recast as Islamic ideas?

Other urls found in this thread:

loonwatch.com/2009/11/the-churchs-doctrine-of-perpetual-servitude-was-worse-than-dhimmitude/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Lay off the Sup Forums koolaid, my fellow redpilled friend

Actually I'm a classic liberal (not full libertarian since that is a broken ideology) grounded in Bayle, Spinoza and Thomas Payne. Literally no theory of racial inheritence, and I don't need one since Islam is a state of mental surrender.

If you want to discuss it purely as a hypothetical, you can.

However if you can't even engage with the question, then you're not thinking clearly about the issue.

And of course, the absolute worst thing you can do in a discussion is to tar your opponent with a slur in an attempt to shut down the conversation.

>That's racist
>This conversation is over

Your shit OP didn't warrant any serious response.

Tell me how western civilization is collapsing and how an Islamic caliphate is seizing power.

Then we can discuss your retarded question

Liberalism is the worst meme and the mother of all degeneracy. I'm beginning to think Islam might actually be the chemo saving us from the cancer of liberalism.

Liberalism is what the new puritan left abandoned long ago, and what the nu-right seems to be latching onto.

The problem isn't liberal values, the biggest problem after Islam is the puritanical left that enables Islam and restricts free thought and free speech.

This.

Islam is the true redpill

The Internet was a mistake

Well wasn't the whole point of Mohammeds conquest to facilitate openness vs the shitty Byzantine empire? No taxes for Jews and Christians and none on trade? In some ways that was a western coup

>He trusted an Islam

The Prophet (SAW) freed slaves, liberated peoples and facilitated the founding of the Islamic caliphate that lasted for almost 1400 years of multi-ethnic peace, harmony and prosperity.

In Europe people toiled and starved and were burned over petty tribal squabbles, killing each other's children over which kind of protestant they were - while in the caliphate people were reading Aristotle and doing algebra regardless of their religion.

>Rational Scepticism

>Actually I'm a classic liberal
>grounded in Spinoza and Thomas Payne

>trying to reason with the regressive left

They are like 100% immune to facts bro, it's all about muh feels with these folks. Seriously bro, total waste of time, they literally HATE facts and logic because they are oppresive and white. It's like arguing with a baby. No use!

Kek

Jews and Christians were taxed, but those taxes ended up being lower than the ones they paid to the Byzantines. Christian heretics like the Monophysites were glad to be free of Orthodox oppression, in fact, Muhammad got religious instruction from these heretical groups in the first place.

BUT

There were all sorts of humiliating restrictions; Infidels had to wear special clothing, they weren't allowed to carry weapons, they weren't allowed to ride horses, they weren't allowed to build new churches or synagogues, they weren't allowed to marry Muslim women, they weren't allowed to speak ill of Islam, they weren't allowed to pray loudly or ring church bells, and occasionally the Muslims would chimp out and massacre them.

>t;dr; Because money>>>>dignity, the infidels sat tight until the Turks showed up and the massacres and repression began in earnest.

>they weren't allowed to build new churches or synagogues, they weren't allowed to marry Muslim women, they weren't allowed to speak ill of Islam, they weren't allowed to pray loudly or ring church bells, and occasionally the Muslims would chimp out and massacre them.
All of these things are true even in the "moderate" Muslim countries today, like Indonesia, Malaysia, UAE and the like (though in Indonesia it's illegal to be Jewish)

The Caliphate was also measurably better for Christians and Jews than modern-day Saudi Arabia or Iran.

The more I hear about this Caliphate the more I like it. Sounds like Christianity in the good old days but better.

...

How come /lit/ is so pleb when it comes to nonfiction?

It's almost like none of you guys actually have good taste, and all you've learned to do is parrot the canon. When it comes to nonfiction, where things aren't so simple, you all latch onto simple political concepts and pophistory.

There was an uneasy balance during the Abbasid caliphate. The Muslims needed Christian trade, they relied on Christians as administrators, they married rich Christian women, but most of all they were afraid of the Byzantines. The Abbasids knew that there were large Muslim minorities in Byzantine lands, and that these people would suffer if the Christians in Abbasid lands suffered. The Byzantines were too strong to simply crush. Their provinces in the Middle East had been easy to take, because they were full of traitorous Jews and heretics.

What eventually happened was that both the Byzantines and the Abbasids started to lose their grip. The Byzantines were invaded by Normans and Bulgarians, and the Abbasids were invaded by Turks. It became difficult for pilgrims to visit the holy sites, and bring the money that kept the economy alive. This power vacuum led to the Crusades. There was rich land for the taking, either in Italy, Byzantium, or the Levant.

It's telling that OP won't answer this

Shitty Sup Forums invaders don't like getting drawn into real debates

Assuming he eventually does respond, it'll be with some series of buzzwords he's repeating from another Sup Forumsack that he assumes is smart

>/lit/ is about the discussion of literature.

>If you want to post dumb Sup Forums bait, go to Sup Forums

>I can make threads about anything I want as long as I google a picture of a relevant book

>There were all sorts of humiliating restrictions; Infidels had to wear special clothing, they weren't allowed to carry weapons, they weren't allowed to ride horses, they weren't allowed to build new churches or synagogues, they weren't allowed to marry Muslim women, they weren't allowed to speak ill of Islam, they weren't allowed to pray loudly or ring church bells, and occasionally the Muslims would chimp out and massacre them.

You do know that the 'Treaty of Umar' is a proven forgery, right? And that Islamic scholars throughout the years delineated between the articles of the forged Treaty that were binding and those that weren't, right? And that many of the 'humiliating' articles were actually apocryphally introduced from Byzantine practice, right?

loonwatch.com/2009/11/the-churchs-doctrine-of-perpetual-servitude-was-worse-than-dhimmitude/

Keep on drinkin dat Robert Spencer kool-aid bruh

Within this century there is going ot be another genocide on the scale of the holocaust

>thinking that religion will ever be relevant again

It seems likely, doesn't it.

Lol, thinking that the Abbasid caliphate existed as some sort of strongly-centralized government throughout its entire rule is a complete fallacy. Essentially, the caliphate's centralization eventually withered to the point where regions would only pay lip service. To think that they were simply 'taken over by the Turk's' is completely retarded, as it ignores the fact that local dynasties were springing up throughout the history of the empire (Sffarids, Samanids, Tulunids, Aghlabids. Things like this resulted in less revenue flowing to Baghdad. It eventually came to a point where the Abbassids had to rely upon a professional army, who basically took control of Baghdad. Whether they're Turkish or not isn't really that important, since this professional-coup-army -- for one thing -- didn't proclaim themselves as caliphs. For another, there were other caliphates rising up, such as the Fatimids in Northern Africa and the neo-Umayyads in modern-day Spain and shit. It was basically disintegration, not conquest. It's not a matter of the 'Abbasid's being invaded by Turk's'. Think about how retarded that sounds and actually do your homework.

I just don't know who will be the perpetrator and who the victim

You conveniently didn't mention the part where Egypt was taken over by the caliphate, and whose people were actually welcoming of the Muslims since the Byzantines actually treated the Copts a lot worse than the Muslims did.

I don't know the exact details but there's no denying that things started to go sour when the Turks left Kazakhstan or wherever they're from and started migrating into the Middle East. I never said they conquered the Abbasids. The Fatamids and the Ummayads didn't have much to do with the Holy Land anyway, unless you want to argue that the Christians got their taste for crusading in Spain.

Booming African population. Lack of functional bureaucracy. Simultaneous Chinese and American corporate investment - all in the central region. Also a tense border between Islam and Christianity.

>a tense border between Islam and the secular mainly post-Christian liberal west
fixed that for you mate

Africa's central region is so large and so diverse that "central region" isn't really an answer

Something similar to what you might be predicting occurred with the Hutus and Tutsis in the 90's. And before that genocide happened, most Americans had never heard of the Hutus or the Tutsis.

I meant this one

It's gonna be on a much larger scale, imo. Every demographics projection institution talk about the African population boom especially that which will occur in Nigeria and once they outweigh their own resources shit's gonna go flying

Which demographics will be massacring which, in which countries? Which political organizations will be involved? How is it going to spread?

Whenever people talk about Africa as a whole, it makes me suspicious

Admittedly I'm not very well versed but the entire demographical map raises concerns because of the lack of education and the religious alignment of large population groups.

In Nigeria shit is destined to go down, though. The upper class and most who manage institutions are Christians, but the vast majority of the population that is also concentrated in the South are Muslims, who feel disenfranchised. Which is also how Boko Haram is flourishing. The population of the country is some 200 million and they are having on average 4 children. America and China also build half their infrastructure

The faultline for the biggest recent conflicts (Darfur, CAR and the current mess in North-East Nigeria to name three) have all been Christianity vs. Islam.

However you don't need to be able to predict the exact battle lines to see that the current situation is a series of tinderboxes waiting for sparks.

>The upper class and most who manage institutions are Christians, but the vast majority of the population that is also concentrated in the South are Muslims
The sound is Christian mate, it's the north that's Muslim. Also they just got a Muslim president for the first time in a while, and he's reigniting a lot of the tension the Christian southerners along the Delta (historically the Igbo people who fought a separationist civil war back in the 60s) are getting incredibly anxious because of this.

Islam (which is a political philosophy as well as a religion) is going to continue to plague Africa and Nigeria especially for a long time to come.

In fact, Islam is going to be the dominant force in global politics for the foreseeable future. It is already dictating EU policy and the selection of the next US president and all that entails.

Study Islam if you want to understand what's happening in our times.

Rural states that rely on resource-rent are the most vulnerable to sectarian shit

Have you read The Looting Machine? You sound like you might've read it. If not, I recommend it. It's kind of about what you're talking about. It's an explanation of why such large swathes of subsuharan Africa are shitty

We were having a serious conversation

Go back to Sup Forums if you think the problem in Nigeria is as simple as Christians vs. Islam

>We were having a serious conversation

>Go back to Sup Forums if you think the problem in Nigeria is as simple as Christians vs. Islam

I'm Igbo myself, so I'm not sure I'd be welcomed on Sup Forums.

And I am not reducing the problems in Nigeria to a mere clash of religions, however the situation with Boko Haram and other Islamist groups being enabled and supported by a huge number of Nigerian Muslims (in part because they feel like they were let down by the previous Christian president) has accelerated a lot of issues Nigeria already has (corruption, over-reliance on oil, sectarianism).

Islam is a serious problem. If you don't see this, you haven't been thinking clearly.

How is Islam related to their economical problems again and why doesn't it cause any problems in Turkey? M-maybe Nigera would be doing better if they weren't a resource provider for corrupt Western and Chinese companies?

To be fair Chinese and Western investment in Nigeria is indirectly creating a greater rift in the social classes because the infrastructure serves functionally long term for the rich, while investment projects usually employ a few thousand people then throw them right out when they're done or redirect them to something much more menial and displaces them

>why doesn't it cause any problems in Turkey
What? Do you live in an ivory tower? You should try following the news from time to time.

Except the blood tax, which is more severe than anything any other religion did to others in terms of oppression.

I'm sure the martyrs of cordoba are also an "alt right meme" according to you...

Pretty strong economy with growth, rather low unemployment and lesser people below poverty line than in Spain, Italy (and soon UK) while housing 2.5+ million refugees. (European countries bitch about 1/4 of the number and Amerifats didn't even take 100k)

LGBT and women's rights are pretty similar to Japan, which isn't a very islamic country. Crime and rape rate is much lower than US of A.

And all that despite a crazy president with islamist roots, being in war with separatists and sharing the border with one of the most violent place on earth this decade.

Because the religion is growing in Europe as we speak. However the population of Europe is mostly agnostic meaning they are malleable. Look it is a fact that Islam is charging through Europe. What makes you think Islam is going to die like christianity when it never died in the middle east the same way?
A real question would be, how are you so blind to the current events in front of your face. Also have you ever read the Quran. I recommend it so that you can see that Islam is not a religion of peace despite what the media tells you.

Open a history book before you pretend you know what you are talking about. Muslims were not living peacefully and the Christian did not burn that many people at the stake Especially comparatively to Islam.

This is what China world #1 fags also overlook; just because Islam is growing in Europe it doesn't mean it will continue to grow, nor does it mean Islam itself won't change in Europe. Too many assumptions.

What? Your entire argument that China won't surpass the United States politically and/or economically is a falsely equivalent syllogism?

The Islamic expansion in modern Europe already faces more ideological opposition than their cumulative Diaspora's population, and the Balkans' refugee route is closed. We are also seeing sectarian problems like Munich. The expansion of the Islamic diaspora and thus religion in Europe is heavily dependent on domestic, foreign and border policy which may take turns easily according to the democratic process. China is a sovereign nation where the overwhelming majority of people other than some goatfuckers and pretentious racists in Hong Kong (the HKers are racist as hell to Southeast Asians, despite the SEA diaspora making up 20-30% of their population and forming an industrial underclass) want to make 'China great again' and have a master morality that Western liberals often racistly misattribute as an inherent racially based psychopathy. Their New Silk Road euphemism of a commercial industrial Empire and aggressive pushing for sovereignty in the SCS and thus a direct trade route to their de facto African colonies has thus far been unhindered because the Pentagon has too much on their hands, and if this continues there's no denying that they'll easily surpass the U.S. The other concern is their ageing population, although there's already legislation being passed to recede the 'two-child policy' into a three child one, which is also then going to be well on its' way to abolishment once think tanks believe that national infrastructure can support that amount of children, which is also dependent on the Chinese ventures in Central Asia and Africa.

The main concern with the New Silk Way and their infrastructural and political establishments in central Asia is that it falls right in line with Russia's geopolitical line of sight, that is, their unwavering desire to strip former SRs of agency and of effective sovereignty. As of now, however, and for the foreseeable decade, Putin and Xi are on good terms and their mutual geopolitical imperative of subverting American hegemon has seen Xi push aggressively into Central Asia without ramification; this may change, though.

Back to Sup Forums you shitheads

So.many. Assumptions. "If this happens, then this" "if this happens then, this will happen next" great, nice guesses. Who knows what Africa will do? At any given moment war could break out in the east or South China Sea; there will be some other financial fuck up in the near future, who knows what that will do to China's rise?

Making reverse alternative history fanfiction about all of these what-ifs is worthless. How do we integrate Muslims already in Europe? How do we render Islam harmless as has been done with other non-pacifist religions like Judaism and Hindu?

Islam is among the top anti-Western ideologies, and if there's one thing Noam Chomsky has taught us, it's that you can get away with anything - provided it is anti-Western in some way.

That is why we have so many so-called Liberals, and alleged lovers of freedom, fighting tooth and nail to defend something that so brazenly opposes their ideals.

/classical/ liberalism!!!!!!

>Freedom of Religion

This is the first thing you need to rectify in order to deal with Islam

>Freedom to have any religion whatsoever

This is the second mistake.

How did the term radical Muslim turn from being highly secularized to being violently religious?

No you fucking retard. Of course there's the probability of unfortunate events happening, but an understanding of basic economics and geopolitics lets you reasonably foreshadow the most likely potential outcomes of any given event. Much like pretty much how every reasonable economist saw the mass defaulting and subsequent GFC coming from years away, and how every reasonable political scientist and sociologist saw the long term ramifications of the Iraqi war. All of this happened while you pseudoersatz absurdist faggots jacked off to postmodern metaphysical vistas that make no fucking sense and don't quantify the most basic of factors. Why don't you kys because who knows huurrr mayb there is heaven maybb reincurnt

>That pic and filename

Well played.

Wow, I think this is the first time I've seen a /lit/ thread moved to Sup Forums

what the fuck

Check out the pew poll my man, or any other polls about muslim beliefs, look at the state of muslim countries (inb4 muh evil white male) and recall that free speech is being buttfucked in Europe right now, also read the Qu'ran.

Also remember that there is a mass immigration of muslims to Europe and that Muslims have way higher birthrates than Europeans, and it really becomes clear that if something doesn't change rather drastically western civilization in Europe will "collapse" as the OP says and Europe will become middle east 2.0.
>inb4 muslims will just integrate
Nope, no reason to believe this. If anything 2nd and 3rd gen muslim immigrants to Europe are even more radical than their parents, so when the number of muslims only grows why should this change? We've tried integration, and it failed.

Really this delusion that multicultural societies involving muslims can work, and that all sorts of different people can live peacefully side by side is ridiculous and no man over 15 should believe it.

>all these Unknowns
W E W
E
W

Mean to reply to

Why are they all unknown

Our Sup Forumsonies are growing larger by the second lad.

Thread was moved from /lit/

Germany and France have a demographics shift to being majority Muslim.
The EU collapses.
France and Germany become the existential threat to the rest of Europe. The EU reforms without France and Germany.
Germany and France are destroyed by a coalition of nations AGAIN.

It's the same shit as always.