Both movies are based around an excuse to get superheroes to fight each other

Both movies are based around an excuse to get superheroes to fight each other.

So how come Civil War was so much better than BvS?

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CW was a proper clash of ideologies.
BvS was just "let's have these two fight."

because NOBODY CARES ABOUT CLARK KENT TAKING ON THE BATMAN

BvS felt like Superman and Batman wouldn't fight if they'd take five minutes to talk things through. Civil War had a number of scenes where they tried to talk things through and couldn't, so the fight felt more justified.

Also BvS had a lousy script, bad editing, and poor direction. Which is a shame because DC certainly deserves to have great movies.

"Martha"

As it turns out, what that excuse is and how it plays out are important. And also whether the rest of the movie is good.

The cut
> I Act was horrible except the flashback sequence
The Script
> "muh martha" could be easily be explained with Barry saying to save Martha.
The Execution
> The 3 hour cut will have a better execution than the vanilla cut

Just with those 3 thing the movie would be really better.

BVS is better

"he killed my mom"

Civil War is an high school drama so of cours it appeals to more people

BvS is a shit so of course it appeals to less people

And what do you call BvS? Saturday morning cartoon?

Really happy how they made it about his mom, since he hated his dad.

People actually liked Saturday Morning Cartoons.

True, I don't know what I was thinking.

>Civil War
The two principal characters fundamentally disagree about justice and cannot resolve their differences except through violence. Though there is a catalyst, the revelation of that catalyst's machinations does not change the reality of their dispute and the catalyst's plan is well thought out and set up. While there is some reconciliation at the end, the damage is done.

>Batman v Superman
The two principal characters are tricked/blackmailed into fighting each other even though they basically agree about everything, attempt almost no resolution to their dispute before fighting, and become bestest buddies because of an extreme coincidence. The blackmailer/trickster who caused them to fight had no real plan and actively had to self-sabotage in a major way in order to be caught.

You know what BvS should have been about? Fear vs Hope. Batman and Superman have conflicting ways of dealing justice and arguably it would have been interesting to explore. But instead we got god vs man bullshit thats more concerned about symbolic wanking rather than character depth

...

I haven't seen CW (or any MCU movies since Iron Man 2). But from what I've read:

* CW's central fight happens because of violence/malice ACTUALLY committed by one of the people in question. Furthermore, this wasn't "breaking a few eggs to make an omelet" kind of badness, but straight up bad shit. (again, I have no idea how true this is or not, and I'm mostly referring to what things I'm guessing Bucky did as the Winter Soldier) In any case, it's enough to cause an actual philosophical debate.

* BvS's central fight happens ENTIRELY BECAUSE OF PARANOIA. That's it. That's literally it. As people said, if they sat down for 2 minutes with each other and behaved like superheroes (and not retards beating their chest), then they'd see they have no issues.

One could argue that BvS is more "realistic", in that it portrays how power/superpower states might react to each other. But, as with almost every aspect of BvS, what works as a symbol/metaphor doesn't always work as a superhero movie. And if you're embarrassed to be making a superhero movie, then why on earth should anyone like it?

>Fear vs Hope.
This is a huge problem. Utimately Batman and Superman are both brooding jerks who generally avoid killing people but do so if it's for the greater good, so even though Lex Luthor sets it up as DAY VS. NIGHT, BLACK VS. BLUE the conflict is really more DUSK VS. TWILIGHT, BLACK VS. SLIGHTLY DARKER BLACK.

In my scenario Superman isnt a depressing asshole

Because BvS had a fucking hamfisted justification for having them fight

Your scenario is mutually exclusive with Zack Snyder's Superman.

Fair point. Still would the concept work?

Hey it's almost like a better made movie becomes a better product. I know right?

Jesus brings Bruce's parents back to life.

How does Bruce react?

I agree with you, dubs

For one, Civil War didn't feel like an excuse.

There was a clash of ideologies yeah, but that alone would make any physical confrontation seem pretty childish and unnecessary (I'm looking at you, Civil War comic).

But they had actual reasons to fight. It wasn't just "I disagree, lets punch each other." They fought because 6 capes were on a mission to stop deadly assassins and the other 6 were on a mission to bring in a wanted criminal.

BvS was basically just "superheros have to fight when the first meet" stretched out into a feature film

>THIS IS WRONG, JESUS! HOW DARE YOU PLAY GOD!

KIDNAPPED MOM LOL

I think Civil War is a better movie objectively but I liked BvS way more. People blow up BvS problems and shrug off Civil Wars weaknesses.

>Civil War had a number of scenes where they tried to talk things through and couldn't
Bullshit. They had plenty of time to discuss and resolve their problems when they bump into each other at the airport.

Cap explained that Bucky was under mind control and that they were on their way to stop the real bad guy.

Tony doesn't trust Cap, the guy Tony knows has an unwavering moral constitution...fuck that.

That's not even taking into consideration that Tony knew both Hawkeye and Hulk killed people under mind control.

The fight was fun, but completely unnecessary.

is Bruce jewish?

ROFL

WTF LOL

because the Russos really understand Captain America and how to take that and make a story out of it.
Snyder understands Superman and Batman to a pretty reasonable degree but not enough that he understands how to make them clash. There are ways to do that and many others have done it before.
Snyder is just not the man for the job plain and simple. Keep him on cinematography or something and have a more mature director in charge of him. This way you get Snyders really great action with a more competent directors use of color, filters, writers, and most importantly the characters.
The Russos dont need any of that help because they know how to make a character be a symbol without resorting to jesus imagery.

>ENTIRELY BECAUSE OF PARANOIA
Is that not a valid premise?

>Tony this guy was under mind control i have literally no proof yet but trust me
You seriously think that would have worked?
>Hulk
Thats why they used him as a last resort and tony had a countermeasure ready
>Hawkeye
He didnt do jack fucking shit when he was mind controlled. He blew out an engine and got beat up black widow

>You seriously think that would have worked?
Yes. He's fought side-by-side with Cap and knows exactly the kind of person he is.

And you're completely ignoring my point on Hawkeye and Hulk.
Tony knows mind control exists. It's real. He even knows Bucky was brainwashed into attacking Cap in TWS.

Tony was being dumb just so the writers had an excuse for the two teams to fight.

If you like it more than BvS, fine. But don't pretend it was because they had a better reason to be fighting each other.

>Yes. He's fought side-by-side with Cap and knows exactly the kind of person he is.

a liar that never told him the truth about his parents death

>knows exactly the kind of person he is
Yeah. He knows he's the type that is going to do and say whatever it takes to protect Bucky, which is why when he fucking lands he says his perspective is skewed

Because you have been conditioned by the cape market to enjoy bright colors and one liners.

Now you're reaching. Holding information from someone (especially when it can lead to their death or the death of others) is not the same as lying to them and Tony didn't know that before their fight at the airport.

Just admit you like lighthearted fights more than serious ones and stop pretending it was because of some legit ideological conflict.

CW had two nice women. (3 if you count 13l
BvS had two skeleton "women". (1 nice woman if you count Lois)

Why comment on a movie you haven't watched? Get out of here before I give you a whoopin, boy.

What has Cap ever done that would lead Tony to believe he'd lie for Bucky at the expense of the world's safety? Cap has always been shown to do the right thing and Tony shouldn't have any reason to suspect otherwise.

LOLWTFBBQ

The best fight in the movie was Bucky and Cap vs Iron Man. That fight wasn't lighthearted at all.

I was focusing on the airport fight, but yes you are right. That fight had a big emotional weight to it too.

Because DC sucks and Marvel rules.

Didn't you get the memo?

Because literally the day before Steve beat the shit out of german police and the king of wakanda to protect Bucky.
What the fuck did you not even watch the movie?

Superheroes with other superheroes? Not really, IMO.

Plus, it's not really a matter of validity. It actually makes a lot of sense in the context of what Snyder wants the DCEU to be. But that's all the more reason to detest it.

In other words, just because a movie follows its internal logic doesn't mean we and/or the audience will like the end result.

Cap was still trying to bring him in. He just didn't want them to shoot him before Bucky got a fair trial.

So why would he let Iron Man do it over the fucking police force?

It's true. Only hipsters suck Snyder's cock.

Nothing, but I don't think that was why he attacked. Not only did Cap lie both by omission at first, and directly the first time he was asked, but if I knew somebody was brainwashed and killed my mother I would attempt to kill them as well.

I think BvS should've had the fight about 1 hour or so into the movie, and the whole second half should've been about them trying to figure out who was tricking them into fighting each other and a more elaborate plan from Luthor they would have to frustrate.

But most of all, it shouldn't have had Zack Snyder as the director.

Did you miss the part where Tony didnt want him to go to trial either? Tony's plan was to just put him in a facility.

>Tony doesn't trust Cap, the guy Tony knows has an unwavering moral constitution
Tony trusts Cap just fine. It's Bucky he doesn't trust, and even that's not the main point; he's trying to bring the two of them in because they just tore a hole through Germany's police special forces. Tony is trying to keep them from bringing even more heat down on the Avengers.

People are more willing to overlook the weaknesses of CW because said weaknesses are orders of magnitude smaller and less substantial than those of BvS. Dawn of Justice is fundamentally flawed at basically every level of the filmmaking process.

It doesn't help that while Marvel has spent the last 8 years building trust and goodwill in their audience by making solid, well-liked movies, Warner Bros. put out a terrible movie and literally said it was "too deep" for the average moviegoer to understand.

And I say this as someone who generally prefers DC to Marvel on the comic side. I really want DC to put together something to rival what Marvel has, but I'm beginning to suspect that executive meddling from WB bigwigs who don't understand the properties they're working with ensures that will never happen.

Long answer: It didn't.
Both relied on basically the same plot device of heroes manipulated into punching each other by some villain ( Lex,Zemo), and both got pretty dark. I enjoyed both movies about the same and laugh at fanboy retards with their company war bullshit.

Better yet:
>Both relied on basically the same plot device of heroes manipulated into punching each other by some villain, when it could have easily been resolved by taking a minute to fucking talk and do a bit of investigation.

But in the end who gives a shit, i go to these movies to watch heroes punch shit and they delivered.

Because Batman being opposed Superman should last about 5-15 minutes of the movie. What's wrong with MoS and BvS is it should be weird to think Superman can be harmful in universe. Like it should be obvious to anyone that he is a shining beacon of hope and people are worried about him should be seen as odd

I don't remember Tony saying that, but if he did then Cap had no idea. He tells Sam and Sharon that he needs to bring Bucky in before someone kills him.

That wasn't the original question. I was responding to someone who said Tony wouldn't trust Cap after "lying" about his parents, which happens after the airport scene.

But Cap explains Bucky was setup by Zemo at the airport and if the entire team went with him they could have stopped Zemo and proven Bucky's innocence at the same time. Not to mention, with the whole team there, there would be no risk of the fight between Tony and Bucky getting out of hand like it did because I doubt even Rhodey would let him kill in cold blood.

>and literally said it was "too deep" for the average moviegoer to understand.
Find me one official source of anyone connected to the movie that actually says this

protip: you won't

>Like it should be obvious to anyone that he is a shining beacon of hope and people are worried about him should be seen as odd
But thats not what would happen within the context of a real world and society, which is what the movie is about.

> deserves

They don't deserve shit senpai. They earn it

Well Cap and crew were going to stop the baddie form releasing more brainwashed super soldiers. Ironman only had 24 hours or so to convince them to sign.

If we're talking exclusively fight scenes, it's kind of unfair to compare since Civil War had an entire team fighting each other compared to just two.

Also audiences have been watching the marvel characters for 8 years now and probably have a deep connection with them by now, even if they don't love every single marvel movie.

the movie tried to explain it

>even if he is good now who knows about the future
>literal vision of a guy telling you were right about him
>first time you meet the guy he makes your car crash and wrecks it and tells you to ignore if people ask your help and bury the mask

That's why they are not good movies

movieweb.com/batman-v-superman-dumb-marvel-fans-warner-bros/
cinemablend.com/new/Zack-Snyder-Takes-Shot-Ant-Man-Here-What-He-Said-81867.html

> I'm so glad I could get you two together

> The Man of Iron Vs the Captain of America

>What's wrong with MoS and BvS is it should be weird to think Superman can be harmful in universe

Batman carries a piece of kryptonite around and has a contingency measure against every member of the Justice League. Where have you been?

Its literally before the big escape scene.
Tony discusses that the plan is to evaluate him and best case scenario is he is thrown in an american facility.
It was a pretty important scene where cap officially said fuck off to the sokovia accords so once i again i ask if you even fucking watched it?

No that's NOT why they are not good movies. I am so sick of this self righteous bullshit from superfags as it is, bu i hate it when people act as if Superman's intentions have not been questioned before in comics and even TAS that came out years ago. People forget the fucking Live Wire episode?

This "lol everyone sees him as a shining beacon of hope" is bullshit on many different levels. But it's also not actually true.

Yes, I remember now. It was a mental facility. That's exactly what Cap wanted before he found out Bucky was framed.
The way you worded it made it sound like Tony was going to stuff him in some deep dark pit to never see the light of day again.

>Implying these people read comics

He actually keeps it in locked box in the cave. And even though he has a contingency plan for every member of the League, he trusts Clark to be the one to take him down if he goes rouge.

he meant that no one should think that Superman can be a danger not that he can't be hurt

It's how it should be. What makes Clark great is even though he is this great and powerful force that could pretty much do whatever he wants it would never even cross his mind to do so. He should be the most human of the League.

But Batman clearly thinks that Superman can be a danger. So do people like Livewire, Amanda Waller, Emil Hamilton, Sam Lane, and Superman himself, who's perfectly aware of Batman's measures.

Fucking TV Tropes actually has an article called Kryptonite Ring.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KryptoniteRing

>most human

but the way you described isn't how humansact at all

>That's why they are not good movies
This is literally the most worthless opinion I've ever read on Sup Forums

Humane then. I was actually referencing Batman's "remarkable dichotomy speech" from Batman/Superman #3

In any case after Steve doesn turn Bucky in after Zemo forces him to escape that would give Tony more reason not to trust him with Bucky, not less.

>these movies aren't good because the characterization is wrong is a worthless opinion
K.

>He should be the most human of the League.

This. I'm so sick of people trying to play up the alien side of Clark. He's a farmboy from Kansas who just happens to be a superpowered alien, not the other way around.

This is how you get the idiots who claim that an insanely rich sociopath who spent his young life training to be the world's greatest badass is "more relatable" than the guy who grew up in a small town, then moved to the big city to become a reporter.

>how come Civil War was so much better than BvS?

It wasn't. When you're a grown up you'll understand.

Tony was trying to save the avengers and stop Steve and company from both becoming bigger criminals and fucking it up for the rest of them. Not only that, but he was guilt-ridden because the entire Sokovia mess was in no small part his fault. And he was on edge because cap's actions were only making their collective hole deeper and he was under pressure to deliver or have what he worked for go up in smoke.

Honestly, I don't see how they could have believably talked it out, and when they met at the airport it was already beyond words.

This
It was beyond words the second Bucky escaped and Steve didnt return him

>the alien should be the most human of the JL

Nah, just kill yourself.

literal autism in action

holy fuck wow

>batman is a sociopath

always hilarious watching superman fans complain about people misinterpreting thir favourite character and then turning around and acting the same way toward batman

But that's what Batman said user.

Well what makes it worse is that Steve was dead against the accords but offered no alternative. It was all "Nuh uh, you move"

Seriously. Am I the only one who was paying attention when Tony said that they had to comply with the accords to have any power in dictating terms? When the accords had already been signed by 117 countries, most notably the USA, the one they're based in? Or when he said that Cap should come with him at the airport, or else "the JSOC team will be a lot less friendly"?

His motivation was clear.

Batman is often wrong

Are you implying that Batman doesn't exhibit extreme antisocial tendencies and doesn't frequently display a lack of conscience? Because I think a large portion of the Batman stories written since the 70's or so would disagree with you.

Sociopaths often are.