He was wrong Sup Forums

He was wrong Sup Forums

>go in team Cap because Tony's generally an asshole
>end up wanting Tony to beat the shit out of Cap in his own movie

He was right about not working for the UN, he was wrong about helping Bucky.

The events of Civil War were caused by lack of control.
Going in to the film neutrally, I was not presented with a compelling argument against control.

He was right about literally everything with the exception of not telling Tony about his parents, which he apologized for.

If it wasn't for Wanda being under house arrest which was the right thing to do he would've signed.

Tony pls go

Team Cap was on the fast track to becoming these guys.

He was right. Tony kept fucking it up. Even if Bucky wans't there he still did shit like putting Wanda into home prison.

tony cucks pls

your golden boy was in the wrong

I was gonna say, JLU's Cadmus arc is literally the ultimate counterargument to Cap. Under Cap's hands we're safe because he's genuinely a good guy, but every hero isn't like him (and even still, Superman was a genuinely good guy in JL; there's definitely something that can psychologically break Cap too).

They were both wrong.

Which was for her own protection.
It makes no sense to have her running around.
Don't even like Tony.
Like something happening to Bucky, perhaps.

Exactly this. Bucky is too dangerous to be free and Cap lost all credibility when he attempted to help Bucky escape the police instead of bringing him in peacefully.

He was literally right about everything, but ok.

Agreed, the whole point was they were just being played for suckers.

Yeah, Cap was right that Bucky was innocent but after that he was mostly playing into the bad guy's hands.

yeah fuck Tony wanting to put a member of their private organization who created an international incident in house arrest under his care, while simultaneously trying to keep the government & UN off their backs AND to maintain accountability for future actions

What a total douche amirite?

The only thing he was wrong about was not telling Tony about the deaths.

Except this is a fucking absurd argument because Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations. Cap wanted to avoid being beholden to a government body that could force them to intervene in places they shouldn't or do nothing when an emergency situation did arise that needed the Avengers. Completely different from the Justice Lords in almost every capacity.

Not only that but when he saw the prison conditions he immediately concluded that it wasn't the best option.
This is the first time Tony has ever been 100% right and it's not even his won movie.

The events of Civil War were caused by lack of information
Nobody stopped to think "Are we absolutely sure this is the right thing to do" all while giving up all of the information that they had
Had Cap stopped, had Bucky not ran (in the first place after winter soldier and when they came for him after the framing), had anyone tried to make sure that everything they knew was correct, basically none of the events would have happened

They tried to write a movie about how everything can so easily come apart, but really they ended up making a movie about how easily people could work together but don't because of their personal feelings

Straight up, if Cap let Bucky get taken in the first place (because honestly, there's no way they could have killed him), nothing would have gone wrong (except for the whole panther subplot)

But it's not. Cap refused any oversight at all, prevented any dialogue being opened up, and became an international terrorist.

He wouldn't even take responsibility for all the deaths in any meaningful way.

>Cap was right that Bucky was innocent
No he wasn't.
Bucky wasn't innocent.
Just because he didn't actively kill all of those people, doesn't mean you can't hold him responsible.
If you have a double agent on your side, only he's not in control of when he's on your side, why would you want him on your side?
Bucky was a huge liability and the only reason Cap didn't bring him in was because it was the last piece of a bygone era he had left, they addressed this in the film. Peggy didn't have to die right in the middle of all of that noise, but it happened because of plot

>Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations.
That's literally what he was doing. He was refusing to listen to the governments of the world because he didn't think they were right.

>I don't think we should allow a government body to control us for their own agenda
VS
>We must control all governments because we are more powerful than them

user they're completely different situations and arguments.

>Except this is a fucking absurd argument because Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations
That's the exact thing Cap was doing in the opening scene of the movie. Taking matters on foreign soil into his own hands and making the decisions which he chooses is best.
Imagine if Zemo became POTUS in the MCU. Do you seriously think Cap would've done anything different from JLord Superman?

>Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations.
That's exactly what Cap argued.
>We may not be perfect, but the safest hands are still our own
He said this when they were already acting like they knew what was best for the world, and invading sovereign nations to act however they see fit.

After the events of TWS, can you even blame him?

Hell, the World Security Council almost nuked New York.

See

He refused to sign the document. He didn't burst in to the UN meeting and demand them to stand down or die. There's kind of a difference.

I just realised Cap is no longer a man out of his time, he has acknowledged to the realities of the modern world but has stuck to his old non compromising principles

I couldn't blame JLord Superman for murdering Luthor either. However, when you murder the president there are voids to be filled, consequences to handle, and in general new rules. I don't think that, from their point of view (assuming they're correct about knowing what's best from the world) the formation of the JLords' rule was illogical either.

He was wrong to not trust government oversite the movie after he discovered the government organization running the Avengers was a front for Hydra you say?

>nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations

Unless it's in Africa, apparently.

Except, as Rhodey said, this isn't SHIELD. This is the United Nations.

In both cases the super teams are ignoring what the official governments of these countries say and enforcing their own views of justice. They don't need to actively take over governments when they can just brush them aside and kill/arrest people themselves.

A handful of people cannot "invade" a foreign nation. The Avengers also are pretty much critically underpowered in the MCU, and plus even if someone like Thor declared himself dictator of a country, who the fuck else is gonna stop him except the Avengers?

But he then essentially did do that. There's no way Cap didn't kill several police officers who were trying to take Bucky in.

He directly went against 117 countries. Because he thought he knew best. Because... reasons.

He was wrong to not put his trust into people that he's known for a long time
Even if there were Hydra remnants active in the government, there'd be people who would be actively working against that too
Cap refused to sign anything or even attempt to work towards a compromise simply because he didn't like the idea of anyone over his head telling him what battles to fight

You mean the international organization famous for not being able to make a decision? That's who I want controlling my super team!

user he specifically chastised Bucky for hitting people too hard in the stairway and went out of his way to save officers lives in that same fight.

>Wanda
>Vision
>Ant man
Fuck even cap at a stretch.

And you've not provided a point. You've just acknowledged the need for oversight.

>who the fuck else is gonna stop him except the Avengers?
And if all the Avengers were in agreement with Thor?
Who stops him/them then?

He was almost going to sign the document as well and Tony was reassuring him with best possible outcomes. Then he just flips out on hearing Wanda is in house arrest (Bitch would be in Nigerian jail if Tony hadnt pulled strings) and backs out from signing

Why is cap the worst ?

>A handful of people cannot "invade" a foreign nation
Yes they can, especially if their strength is comparable to an army.

SHIELD or SWORD or any other super agency that deals in espionage and super human powers

And in the same fight, practically in the same breath as the statement, slammed one of them through a wall.

Hah, I'll give you that one.

>Bucky cleary has his wits about him
>"Bucky police are coming, prove to me you're worth saving and don't kill anyone"
>"OK Steve, I promise I won't kill anyone"

>Bashes heads through walls
>Throw people over railings
>Steve has to catch people in mid-air to save their lives from Bucky

>But hes totally worth saving and not an asshole guys, don't lock him up!

>Tony kept fucking it up.
I really want to hear what the argument is for that. What did Tony even actually do wrong before trying to join Cap's side?

And refusing to sign wasn't the problem - The Accords made it clear you could walk away if you chose. Actively violating the law both before and afterwards as a vigilante was.

>Bucky wasn't innocent
Yes he was
>Just because he didn't actively kill all of those people
AKA he's 100% innocent
>doesn't mean you can't hold him responsible
you cannot hold somebody responsible for actions they never took.
>If you have a double agent on your side, only he's not in control of when he's on your side, why would you want him on your side?
Because the plan was to get him to surrender peacefully(ie not killed by a german death squad), and maybe, I don' know... FIX THE MIND CONTROL PROBLEM
>Bucky was a huge liability
See: above
>the only reason Cap didn't bring him in was because it was the last piece of a bygone era he had left
you're literally talking out of your ass. He wanted to bring bucky in peacefully, and when he was brought in, Bucky was all but denied a fair trial, and was well on his way to wakandan extradition, where his life would be in the hands of a grieving king who thinks his dad was murdered by him, and had not only just tried to kill him, but had said they couldn't keep him from Bucky.
>Peggy didn't have to die right in the middle of it all of that noise, but it happened because of plot
Zemo's family didn't have to die in all that noise, but it happened because of plot
Stark didn't have to lose his mind after learning a mind controlled assassin killed his parents, but it happened because of plot

fuck off with your idiocy

>and plus even if someone like Thor declared himself dictator of a country, who the fuck else is gonna stop him

Hydra the true saviour of humanity

HAIL HYDRA!!!!!!!

Where the fuck were She Hulk and Daredevil at? Half of all of the problems could habe been solved if a lawyer with half a brain could took a look at the accords instead of expecting a bunch of meathead suoer heroes and a drunk businessman to make an informed decision on a law in a few weeks.

Cap was right.

The Accords couldn't even make sure that the psychologist evaluating Bucky was properly vetted.

They're already fucking up.

The guys who were coming for him had kill orders. Ross later says if Cap hadn't interfered Bucky would be eliminated. The moral of the movie is don't cooperate with Thaddeus Ross.

>Steve has to catch people
person. one person. one person was at risk to die, and he didn't even die.

>Don't lock him up!
not even close, considering the entire scene showed that it was shoot first, arrest later. It only became an arrest situation when conventional police got involved, and Rhodes was there.

Non-existent and non-canon respectively

With UN oversight, the Avengers have to wait for a resolution to approve their deployment to stop Thor. This could take WEEKS if ever. With a free Avengers, they respond immediately. And if the Avengers side with Thor there's nobody who could stop them anyway. I mean Christ do you really think a UN resolution is going to stop them?

Tony in effect threw Wanda into prison so he could control her. It was a strong indication that the next step would be explosive collars or some other way for the government to have total control.

The hastily brought in psychologist, who had to be rushed in due to cap.

>Which was for her own protection.
you mean protecting others by locking her up against her will?

You're right. Without cap there would be no psychologist, because Bucky would've been killed.

Unless you have dangerous powers like Wanda. In which case "retiring" means they lock you up.

>Imagine if Zemo became POTUS in the MCU. Do you seriously think Cap would've done anything different from JLord Superman?

Yes, assuming that he would requires a leap Evil Kenevil woukd struggle with.

>If the ones in power could act unilaterally instead of having to get approval from everyone, things would be much more efficient
That's the logic begind having a dictator.

Seriously, how can anyone support Cap? Ok, he should help Bucky but he lost the moral high ground the moment he assaulted officers that are just doing their legal duty. And he wasn't even just taking them down, he was throwing them so hard their heads dented walls.

He should have had the Avengers equivalent of a court martial after he deployed Banner on the ground in South Africa

Still, government clearance is a big deal.

If they can't pull that off on the fly, how can they get 117 countries to make a life or death decision in a timely manner?

I'm starting to get what Markus and McFeely were saying about Bucky doing more wrong than Wanda here. Cap said straight up "This doesn't have to end in a fight, Buck" and Bucky said "It always ends in a fight." He was perfectly willing to endanger the lives of those men, and despite saying he wouldn't kill anyone, tried to throw a man off the stairwell before Cap caught him. And all this time, he never attempted to turn himself in to the authorities and explain what he's done. The idea that Bucky isn't responsible for what he did requires that he's a different Bucky now than he was when HYDRA made him their weapon, but he's not. He's remembered his old life, but his life with HYDRA has affected him just as much if not more. And in a lot of ways, that's the guy Cap was defending.

Nah uh, Evil Kenevil could do it easy

>officers who were trying to take Bucky in.

That's a fucking lie and you know it. Ross sent those guys to kill Bucky.

She was under house arrest and intentionally sent the Hulk to attack tons of innocent people barely a year ago.

>one person was at risk to die, and he didn't even die.
Maybe watch the movie again.
People dont survive the things Bucky did to them. Heads literally broke walls.
Plus, Steve just goes "come on, man" after Bucky attempted to kill a person after he promised not to.

>considering the entire scene showed that it was shoot first, arrest later. It only became an arrest situation when conventional police got involved, and Rhodes was there
If all it takes to turn a kill mission is the involvement of local police and an Avenger on scene, it's almost as if Cap could've influenced them to arrest Bucky...

Cap was trying to bring him in peacefully. He fought the police because they were on a "shoot on sight" order. After that, Bucky was on the run and Cap was trying to catch up. When he did, they were both arrested.

>Tony in effect threw Wanda into prison so he could control her

More like stopping the bitch from making things worse

>legal duty
>murdering a man without trial

Why would it need all 117? Surely it would just need the one where the Avengers want to go to.

As opposed to what?
Letting her run around? That would create a PR nightmare, and result in stricter legislation.

My ass.

be honest if your friend even had a clue that his friend bashed your dads head in and snapped your mothers neck would sorry calm your rage

>5 movies of Tony constantly being an asshole
>meh
>1 movie of Cap arguably acting like a dick
>FUCKER DESERVES A BEATING
tonyfags pls

Which is a completely understandable POV.
Why is Bucky so deserving of life?

This.

They had orders to shoot on sight. Sharon even confirmed and said so.

It was a clear cut indication that the government could not be trusted to leave retired heroes alone.

>Yes he was
No he wasn't

>AKA he's 100% innocent
He still killed all of those people

>you cannot hold somebody responsible for actions they never took.
He DEFINITELY killed all of those people

>Because the plan was to get him to surrender peacefully(ie not killed by a german death squad), and maybe, I don' know... FIX THE MIND CONTROL PROBLEM
Things Bucky wasn't willing to do
Things Bucky didn't do when given the chance to
Bucky wasn't going to get killed by a german death squad, he proved that by not getting killed by a german death squad and then a superpowered panther themed royal

>See: above
You mean where you were completely wrong about your conclusions

>Bucky was all but denied a fair trial
Bucky wasn't given a trial because he was detained for not co-operating with the police, working with Hydra, and making a huge mess in Berlin
He was a huge risk to national security, but had he gone in to the US government (which is what Cap tried to get him to do, and he still refused) he would have been spared all of that
The only reason Cap and T'Challa weren't also detained like that was because there were foreign super powers giving them a chance
This is all under the assumption that he wouldn't immediately be given psychiatric help once they eventually got him to surrender, which is what happened. Might I add, they didn't just shoot him and Cap (who was aiding his escape) and BP who they didn't know was royalty once they had him surrounded
And even if he was on his way to Wakandan extradition, Bucky dying right then and there means that less people die over all


>Zemo's family didn't have to die in all that noise, but it happened because of plot Stark didn't have to lose his mind after learning a mind controlled assassin killed his parents, but it happened because of plot
Zemo's family died in a prior movie, but even if they didn't, what's your point
Stark freaked out because Cap had kept Bucky's role in the assassination a secret from him

>You're right. Without cap there would be no psychologist, because Bucky would've been killed.
Probably would have turned out better for literally everyone except Bucky. And maybe Zemo.

If you're too dangerous to bring in alive, lethal force is 100% authorized. And Bucky literally tried to kill cops sent to arrest him.

>killing people is only OK if you're an independent superhuman Avenger in a foreign land and just know you're right no matter what!

how about as opposed to treat her like a human being like Cap does earlier on?

Yeah it really would have been the worst thing in the world if, on the way to the store someone threw a grenade at her and she protected herself. I mean really, who can forgive something like that?

A wanted terrorist who allegedly attacked the UN killing the leader of a member country.

They arrested Bucky but offered him no trial, failed to even verify the identity of a key person involved in his case, and when Cap said that he has proof positive that Bucky wasn't the killer, they ignore him and blow up an airport. Stellar performance from the UN right off the bat.

Explain how that wasn't their legal duty.

>sent to arrest him.
To murder him.

>Daredevil
>non-canon
kys

Bucky wasn't trying to kill anyone. He was just slapping people's shit so he could get out of there.

Depending on the region it could also need approval of all the allies like in a NATO region

Or if wanted to go to a nation that was a superpower and then there would be vetoes and shit

>Forgetting about South Africa

Murder is a legal concept.

Given the authority to murder him
But they didn't murder him after they got him to surrender

Why wouldn't he give himself up to Cap?