>TFW you can tell your grandchildren you were there when Marvel gave us an good movie villain.
Loki's character was good and all but his backstory and motivations were contrived as fuck. The Baron killed it in civil war though, he didn't steal the show or anything but he was a genuinely great character with a relatable goal who's actions actually made sense for once. And the way they built him up was great too with the phone message and his logical exposition/attempted suicide which brought BP back from the brink. The only way it could have been better is if they let him go through with it, I genuinely expected him to just slip off the cliff.
Parker Bennett
Zemo a cute. CUTE
Aiden Gray
How did Zemo find the Coincidence Gem?
He better watch out for Thanos the big purple guy
Aiden Smith
>mfw I realized why he asked for breakfast leading to the discovery of the body in the hotel room
He was brilliant.
James Richardson
Did we watch the same movie? He really wasn't that good...
Christian Peterson
Clearly we didn't, you must've watched Batman vs Superman.
Jackson Sanchez
I'm pretty sure he's the first marvel movie villain to rely entirely on his wits to take down the Avengers.
Austin Clark
Try watching it again with your eyes open this time.
Xavier Gomez
Plz explain, last I looked we were entirely devoid of coincidence Jems.
Nathaniel Long
Okay explain how he was good? The scheme was overly convulted and relied on him knowing a lot of information. It was very coincidental.
As an actor we didn't get much from him either.
So why not provide your reasoning for why you thought he was good?
Also how many more revenge based villains will we get? Practically all of Iron Man's villains have been seeking revenge (well maybe not Stane but the two).
Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver were motivated by hating Tony Stark (dialogue mentioned this).
Same old, same old.
Effectively we got the exact same motivation but done with a non-powered person. It relies on too much coincidence. Sure the movie was enjoyable but he was not a great villain as you make out.
Why not present an actual argument.
Luis Brooks
BUT MUH SOCK
Colton Smith
>The only way it could have been better is if they let him go through with it, I genuinely expected him to just slip off the cliff. But then they couldn't make a Thunderbolts trilogy.
Robert Garcia
>coincidence
What are you talking about?, nothing that Zemo did was a coincidence, did you even watch the movie or are plain shitposting?
Even with no purple mask, he still felt like a Zemo all around.
Lincoln Lopez
Also I like how a pic from fucking Avengers Arena's even less liked sequel has become to go-to Zemo image.
Oliver White
That's the point I'm getting at yes.
Evan Nelson
he can even speak french
Owen Cook
you mean MOVIE villain
do you even read comics?
Connor Peterson
Do you read at all? He literally says good MOVIE villain.
Oliver Jackson
>What are you talking about?, nothing that Zemo did was a coincidence, did you even watch the movie or are plain shitposting? How did he know that the Winter Soldier killed Stark's parents? How did he know to ask that to get that information? It is reliant on him hacking some files and finding some evidence to point to it and then seeking more evidence.
Lucas Foster
Can't wait for Citizen V once all the avengers die in Infinity war and SOMEONE must take their place
Cooper Nelson
He was kinda disappointing honestly. Boring, one note backstory, boring revenge motivation. He had a nice scene at the end but really they could have written the movie without him and it probably would have been better.
Oliver Flores
He was an intelligence officer in the Sokovian military and spent a year deciphering the Hydra files Black Widow leaked. He spent all of his waking life in that time studying this information.
Experience and patience. He says it himself.
Asher Rivera
It's stated in the first minutes of the movie pretty much: He decripted the Hydra files that widow made public, a man like him with experience and patience can accomplish a lot of things.
That's not hard to understand, is it?
Matthew Hughes
The manner in which his motivations were presented to us progressively over the course of the movie instead of all at once through exposition or narration shows a level of tact absent from all other marvel films. The complicated nature of it added depth and complexity to his character as it maintained continuity with what we already knew merely building on it. Furthermore showing us his motives instead of telling us made his character more authentic as we experienced it with him and related to him better. His plan relied entirely on craft, manipulation, and an understanding of the human condition instead of beating them with brute force like literally every other marvel villain ever. Finally the idea that he was completely unpowered but still brought the avengers to their knees is powerful in of itself, much less that he succeeded and would only end it on his own terms.
Cameron Perry
>he does it explicitly to show up the Avengers on how superheroing's properly done
Jason Miller
It got me badly with the calls, I honestly thought he had a family that was waiting for him, it broke my heart when he spoke to black panther.
Caleb Hughes
In the first few minutes we see him beat the shit out of a hydra agent and interrogate him in his own home for information. It's safe so say he's been pulling similar acts of badassery for information ever since AoU, which just makes him that much cooler imo.
David Johnson
He was alright, but let's not overstate how good he was. He at least is set up for interesting things in the future
Cameron Scott
To be honest he felt more of an agents of shield teir character. Not a bad thing but I felt he was out of place. Also either the guy was too good at a large range of spy shit or ex Hydra agents, us/un , and avengers suck at security.
Jason Sullivan
Yes but: He is a villain primarily reliant on revenge. These movies have seen a score of villains with similar motivations. The acting was not the best, the scene with Black Panther near the end was pretty decent however.
The two plots of the accords and Zemo also felt completely disjointed as there was a part sequel to Age of Ultron and part sequel to Winter Soldier. The whole plot relied on conflict building between the Avengers when it could have been solved so easily. The film did not do a good enough job of building this conflict, which Zemo's plot relied partly on. As such, we get a cool action scene out of it (airport).
The film needed to do a better job with the accords and the philosophy of it because the film ends up with more Steve helping his friend and less about that other conflict.
Is he better than other villains? Sure, we have had some terrible ones (Thor 2 anyone?) but he isn't the best. I feel like you are overhyping him .
Liam Fisher
>when it could have been solved so easily. No it couldn't.
Christopher Ortiz
That seems to be where they're heading with him, especially given the focus on collateral damage and that scene in the first Thunderbolts issue where they all repair the collateral damage caused in their fight with the Wrecking Crew
Easton Morgan
Why?
Evan Sanchez
>Whiplash >Avengers Loki (?) >Killian >SW and QS >Zemo Not that much, and there are nuances to each revenge story. Only Zemo and the twins have somewhat derivative revenge stories, and Zemo's still feels more personal. You could just throw a bunch of villains under the bus with "they want power" but that wouldn't be doing any of them justice. Even Malekith and Yellowjacket have more to them than that.
Kayden Baker
It could. The philosophy behind the movie was too understated so the Civil War ended up being more focussed on Bucky and the completion of the arc built up in The Winter Soldier.
By the end of the movie we already saw that the cracks that had appeared weren't as cataclysmic as presented as Cap sends Tony that phone.
Adrian Roberts
Hey, marvel movies need plot holes for them to work.
Julian White
That's what makes him so awesome, his actions are driven not out of greed, jealously, or want of power but to avenge his wife and children and prevent what happened to them from happening to anyone else. They drive this home at the end by showing the callous disregard with which he throws away his own life. It tied in very well with the rest of the film overall.
Jace Gray
>Not that much You just named the villains of a load of films. It is quite bad.
>You could just throw a bunch of villains under the bus with "they want power" I am not saying "villain stories of revenge are boring" I am saying they have been used too often and are not that nuanced. heck, the MCU could use some "they want power" villains to balance things out.
You cannot deny that Marvel have a problem with creating compelling villains.
Austin Anderson
He listened to the same recording twice, with a bitter, traumatised stare on his face. Just that should explain to you why a Sokovian is out to destroy the Avengers.
That damn recording is the central symbol of his character throughout this movie, with him deleting the message being a final act of closure. He reached his goal, he doesn't need reminding anymore. The only thing to come is death. So Panther pretty much painted a target on his own back when he stopped Zemo from ending his run.
Jaxson Reed
Yellowjacket is legitimately the most complex and intimidating villain in the MCU. Severely underrated just because people want to label him as evil businessman #1593
Aaron Cox
No it couldn't. Being able to get past the conflict is one thing, avoiding it entirely was not possible.
Brody Allen
>Isn't sucking marvel dick >lolz u must like BVS, user!
You are literally 12 aren't you
Hunter Jones
Makes no mistakes, Cross was great too and definitively more intimidating, but Zemo and him are just too different to compare.
Oliver Thompson
>Iron Monger >Thor 1 Loki >Ronan >Malekith >Red Skull 5 vs 5 in terms of examples.
Daniel Davis
Iron Monger was great, like everything from iron man 1.
Carson Perez
see This is a revenge plot done right to the extent where he's hardly a villain anymore.
Keep in mind I'm hyping him as the best marvel movie villain of all time in which sense anyone above a cardboard cutout is Citizen Cain comparatively.
Evan Gomez
Discovering the body of the dead dude was crucial for Zemo's plan to take effect. If they never found his body, Tony would have never flown off on his own to help Steve in that secret base for the final act.
Isaiah Campbell
Ronan and Malekith wanted revenge to. I think. Did Malekith ever say what he wanted? Did he say anything?
Luis Roberts
There are actually only a few motivations a villain can even have, ultimately. >revenge >power/conquest/money - it's really all very derivative versions of material gain >ego (DOOM!) >natural need to harm others (Galactus)
Bentley Moore
He's evil businessman #1593 with daddy issues. What more to him is there than that?
Dominic Lewis
This post summarizes Thor 2 perfectly.
Andrew Cruz
Sure there is.
The problem is Marvel has not made its villains interesting enough to hide this.
Lincoln Torres
Which is why people are happy with Zemo.
Jason Rodriguez
He wanted the aether so he could turn the universe into an eternal night, idk why since most of his people are dead and they dont develop his plan much after that.
Connor Butler
They are both relatively generic conquerors in the movies. Although Ronan's hatred gives him another angle. You could argue he is out for an abstract concept of revenge, but ultimately he a zealous warlord, as opposed to Zemo who is directly taking revenge for his family.
So far half the movies didn't even build up a villain much because they only cared for the protagonist. Which is honestly more than most action movies or Disney flciks can show for in that department. They tend to have the opposite problem of the villain being far more interesting than the hero.
Grayson Peterson
At that point he probably just wanted revenge for Odin kicking his shit in way back in the day.
Jaxon Murphy
Watching it a second time I was impressed with how naturally it all flowed. In theaters the constant flipping back to Zemo felt a bit awkward but taking it all in it worked perfectly. the only change I'd make is to actually show Zemo's Bucky disguise mask in the hotel room, or even how he pulled it off. It's one of the most important aspects of the movie and its kinda weird that his disguise being left as bait in the room was only mentioned by dialogue rather than shown.
Jose Gonzalez
I honestly thought Ronan was a good villain just from how well he was portrayed, he was a perfect counter weight the gotg. I don't even thing it was so much revenge as it was a preventative measure. If he wanted revenge he would have woken the commie zombies or gotten a nuke or something. Instead he did everything possible to end capeing forever including killing his super soviets, all to make sure no more people would have to die like his wife and daughter did. Everyone he killed was guilty to him as they perpetuate the sick game of cat and mouse that causes so much collateral damage. He literally just wants to make the world a better place and frankly he's right in trying to end vigilantism. Supporting quotes: "You think I want more of you?" "The Avengers walked away." And of course his suicide at the end.
Joshua Roberts
In any case, they fucked the man over hard. Comic-Malekith is so much more interesting. Although I see why having him in a movie with Loki around would be rather redundant as you don't have the time to establish the nuanced relationships between immortal beings. Still, it could have been Ice Giants, or Surtur and it would have improved the movie.
Asher Russell
Nah, he's just decent and nothing like a good character or villian.
Ryan Turner
Originally Bor was supposed to have slaughtered Malekiths family, so Malekith and his Dark Elves were meant to be the acting as the consequence of the immoral actions taken by the royal family of Asgard in their conquest of the Nine Realms finally catching up to them.
There was supposed to be an arc for Thor where he saw that taking the throne would cause him to take immoral actions similar to what happened to Malekith like his father and grandfather before him, which influenced him to reject the throne and become a superhero on earth instead. Most of this was cut out in the end though.
Charles Peterson
And in later Thunderbolts stories (like Avengers vs. Thunderbolts and the Civil War tie-ins) there was a lot of emphasis on the T-Bolts under Zemo's leadership being better at avoiding collateral image than the Avengers. And Zemo cheerfully rubbed it in their faces, too.
Jason Thomas
Maybe they thought the audience would get paranoid if they showed Zemo with a Mission Impossible perfect Bucky mask.
Then again Bucky has powers and Zemo doesn't.
Jacob Thomas
Nahh... he's decent villain, but generic as fuck.
Jordan James
Who are you go away
Connor Hill
why didn't he just send stark an email? "lol caps buddy murdered ur parentz" why did they all have to go to siberia?
Blake Cook
That fact that Civil War is overall better than BvS is written in stone. If you look and critic reviews, moviegoer opinion, and its performance in the box office all concur that civil war is the better of the two.
Matthew Diaz
...
Jeremiah Walker
So they would come to blows outside of the USA where Stark had the upper hand, similarly he needed Cap to go so it would look like he was fleeing. In short, he couldn't risk them settling things diplomatically.
Evan Phillips
Well, that was his plan. His motivation is still his dead family. Sure, he is not taking revenge by trying to kill them, but I would still call that revenge.
The logic of saying that heroes produce villains is a stupid one, though. They only produce villains insofar as their concept demands there to be fitting villains. And the retarded plots where a character's experiment goes rogue. Which happens only every time someone makes a sentient anything. But that is all plot contrivance. It's like saying that police causes murderers and thieves. Capes obviously must be in a world where they make sense to exist. And that means baddies nobody else can or will fight.
Easton Wilson
The MCU exists in a world where the earth has been invaded by Frost Giants, Kree and Inhumans throughout it's history, and has had people like Red Skull exist to his fullest extent before any superhero was around.
Captain America is actually pretty interesting as a character in this regard, as he was actually created in direct response to the Red Skull, one of the few examples where it's the villain who created his hero counterpart. Loki creating the Avengers is another good one.
Colton Long
Actually I thought the movie did s pretty good job of explaining this. Heroes cause villains because they operate with little concern for the safety of civilians, often causing more destruction than they prevented thus the need for government over watch. The argument that heroes cause Gillian's was true in the terms of the marvel universe, the invasion of NewYork, Ultron, Every ironman villain, suicide bomb guy, etc. we're all direct results of the actions the heroes had taken. Heroes escalate dangerous situations whereas police try to settle it diplomatically and with minimal casualties.
Angel Hill
Fukin Gillian
Tyler Walker
user, they were concerned about the safety of civilians in literally every single confrontation.
Jace Phillips
Literally the first scene of Civil War "They have a devastating bioweapon in a glass vial that could kill millions if it cracks! Quick, kick it out of his hand in a packed urban area!" "They're speeding away in armored trucks while shooting at us with assault rifles and grenade launchers! Better chase them into an area literally packed with hundreds of innocent people and continue fighting them here!" "Oh no, he detonated a suicide vest and SW can't contain in for long! Quick, throw him into that crowded office building!" And that's literally just the opening sequence alone, I could write a list of all the dumb shit they do across all the Marvel movies.
Mason Lopez
>"They have a devastating bioweapon in a glass vial that could kill millions if it cracks! Quick, kick it out of his hand in a packed urban area!"
He was about to throw it on the ground if they didnt do that. How do you suggest they recover it?
>"They're speeding away in armored trucks while shooting at us with assault rifles and grenade launchers! Better chase them into an area literally packed with hundreds of innocent people and continue fighting them here!"
As opposed to what, allowing the guys in a big truck with rocket launchers to drive through a crowd completely unopposed?
>"Oh no, he detonated a suicide vest and SW can't contain in for long! Quick, throw him into that crowded office building!"
Instead ofeaving it in the street where even more would die.
Wow, in 3 out of 3 cases they actually did their best to minimize casualties. I'm really interested in those other examples. All your examples inbolve villains with no compunctions about killing having their attacks minimized or even mitigated, and yet you still complain.
Levi Wilson
Ronan was a zealot on Jihad, a villain for the times
Jace Bailey
It wasn't Zemo though, it was just some guy with an agenda. They could have called him anything.
Tyler Long
>implying anyone who likes capeshit will have children
Christopher Gomez
They actually did a great job in that scene of containing a psychopath like Crossbones
Luis Jackson
See >every comic book writer with children
Brayden Peterson
The best thing about it is the they decided to do CW in response to BvS being announced.
Chase Torres
Comicbook writers =/= comicbook fans
Oliver Sanders
Weird thing is that the actor Corey Stoll said he was more scientist than businessman and that's why he had that obsessive streak. Just a shame that people think he's Obadiah Stane 2.0 just because he's bald, in a business suit, and ends up using similar tech to the main hero (even though he himself built that tech out of his obsession over tales of Hank as Ant-Man instead of just getting a bunch engineers to make one out of the blue).
Adam Thompson
It is too bad really. His plan was so good that causals didn't even understand it. I had people complain that the plot made no sense, whne it was pure simplicity.
Chase Turner
Let's look at what police would do 1) Baracade area w/ cruisers/swat vans etc. and lay down road spikes to prevent the villains from getting out at all. 2) Call Hazmat teams and evacuate civilians in case bio weapon is leased in which case it could be handled dark harvest style. 3) Try and talk the shooters down all while laying siege to the complex w/ snipers, gas, smoke, etc. and even bargain with them if they're willing.
All this with almost no impact on civilians whatsoever. The Avenegrrs on the other hand didn't even try to sabotage the vans or stop them from leaving. They literally just showed up and started punched people until they ran away then chasing them down and punching them some more.
Parker Gray
This is all assuming the police had tike to set those things up. They wouldn't have been able to stop that guy from immediately throwing the vual down. They couldn't set up spikes to stop the truck if the truck already fucking left.
Yeah, no impact to civilians assuming the bad guys wait around for the hazmat teams and barricades to be called in.
Levi Taylor
Still doesn't address why the avengers took little rally no measures to stop them from getting out into civilian dense areas. What the hell was black widow even doing in the beginnings no that was more important than cutting a few wires or shooting a tire for fucks sake.
Julian Turner
Didn't they steal the rocket launcher truck? They came in with the garbage truck and the two shipping trucks. Were the Avengers supposed to slash the tires of every vehicle nearby just in case?
Henry Edwards
You'd make a really fuckin' boring supervillain.
Landon Baker
It confused me, he said his son died in Sokovia but wasn't his son dicking around in agents of shield?
Julian Sullivan
never mind, that was strucker
Nolan Sanchez
>>TFW you can tell your grandchildren you were there when Marvel gave us an good movie villain. Only if they ever manage it.
Cause they haven't yet.
Noah Walker
>The Baron Who? Zemo? Wasn't even a Baron in the movie. Also why is his name not even remotely pronounced in a German way?
Benjamin Evans
Because Sokovia isn't Germany.
Wyatt Walker
Helmut Zemo is a pretty German name though.
Asher Hill
Marvel really needs to create an expansive history for Sokovia. It's weird that this Zemo has absolutely no relationship with Hydra and his family is instead Sokovian based
Liam Evans
You mean like....making MCU based comics that are set in the MCU so that the main comics line doesn't need to ape the movies anymore?