You don't seriously think he was right, do you?

you don't seriously think he was right, do you?

if so, please explain

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Neither of them were right.

He was doing what the guvment told him to, like an adult

Team Black Panther

Tony was right, in trying to kill Bucky basically putting him out of his misery and for wanting to keep everyone in check

I think Tony was right because I'm a filthy statist, with no moral compass of my own, save for what the authorities tell me.

I think Tony was right because he was complying with the wishes of 117 sovereign nations who want to make the world not worry about what these six or seven superpowered gods among men are doing at any given time

Steve's main argument was 'BUT HE'S MY BUCKY' as if that mattered more than the authority of the United Nations

With the scale of the things the Avengers deal with it's inevitable that some people in high political power are going to have problems with the way they operate. They may be doing the right thing, but you can't expect a privately owned group to just be able to jump into fights in every other country whenever they want without people being upset. That sort of tension can't keep building forever and eventually they're going to be need to reign in the Avengers or deal with major international incidents. Tony's stance on the accords was preemptive; it showed that the most powerful people on Earth were willing to work with the rest of the world as opposed to doing whatever they want. It would build trust, good-will, and give them more say in things than if they were later forced into it.

Good goy.

>the UN
>mattering
HAHAHAAHA

Right to bring in Bucky. Wrong to sign Accords.

Bullshit. The accords were entirely valid in concept. You can't just have Superpowered Individuals running around doing whatever they want to "help"

The opening scene showed well enough how out of control the collateral damage with all these Avenger Battles was getting.

He was wrong for not checking the details and questionable morality of the faggot who he was working with to uphold the Accords (Ross).

That said, his outburst was very much understandable given the amount of shit he had to put up with on top of being kept in the dark about his parents' deaths despite trusting Cap's "muh truth and justice" in the climax. Even Cap knew to apologize for hiding the truth due to selfish reasons.

More people would've died if Wanda didn't plunge Crossbones in the air.

Did anyone actually read the fucking Accords? I know we really dont need that scene but it felt like everyone who signed just went "welp this sounds like a good idea, but Im sure Vision will look over it or something"

Tony
>We have to pay for our actions
>We have to have our powers regulated
>You can't endanger lives
>Bucky could still have some hydra in him, we need to arrest him

Cap
>Fuck civilians, Buckys my friend, I don't care how many people that mass murderer kills

You tell me

People don't really care about "what ifs" just what's happened.

The UN is not a government.

Ross less concerned about collateral damage and more focused on acquiring assets he could use

Dude, of course they read the accords. You really think they just looked at the fucking cover?

You're right, it's even more incompetent and useless than the government.

Because Veronica worked so well, didn't it?

This user is on point. You can't have a bunch of super humans prancing into sovereign countries without those countries pushing back at all. The only alternative provided is that said supers would 'fight back' but that just makes them criminals that are excessively good at killing those sent to capture them.

Like Bucky, actually.

>people say tony is right because he was respecting the governments
>people say steve is wrong because he was only doing it for muh bucky

>governments' and tony's arguments consisted entirely of straw manning all the work the avengers had done by saying they were big bad destruction people who killed lots of people
>when in reality everything the avengers had ever done prevented MASS death and in a few cases extinction at the cost of a few lives of collateral damage
>meanwhile governments all over the world have been to war and done the exact same thing, yet still shit on the avengers
>meanwhile the US government wanted to NUKE NEW YORK CITY instead of letting the avengers deal with it

the governments were completely wrong. That secretary of state guy's tape that was supposed to tell us all about how much shit the avengers have done that would necessitate something like this was laughable. Every single thing he showed showed the avengers staving off some massively more dangerous threat that would have wiped out millions or billions. I don't even remember them all, but off the top of my head


>slokovia
>avengers fight off an army of robots while evacuating the city of people
>avengers prevent a world ending extinction event from taking place and killing BILLIONS
>people are angry because a few (oh my god maybe even a HUNDRED!) people died in the process

>new york
>avengers fight off an army of aliens who want to take over earth, possibly killing and enslaving millions or billions
>confine their fight to a few block radius on purpose
>literal scene devoted to showing evac of citizens from this killzone
>gubmint wants to carpet nuke the whole city and kill everyone in it to contain this
>avengers you are so mean and naughty you destroyed a bunch of buildings! look at this tape of an alien ship destroying several buildings and hulk kind of tearing up the side of one!

>uganda or wherever
>avengers prevent theft of bio weapon that could have killed thousands

Tony
>Throws money at problems so he can freely cause property damage
>Gets drunk while partying with his weapon technology
>Leaves alien AI's unattended with free access to the internet and his hardware

Cap
>Is just a soldier with a shield doing all the good he possibly can

While the point was not addressed, not wanting to give a government body control over the Avengers right after learning that SHIELD, the organization that previously controlled the Avengers, was hopelessly corrupt would make me not want to turn that control over to the government.

Tony
>is pro skub

Cap
>is anti skub

Also remember that Ross is responsible for the fucking Abomination and yet he still tries to be all high and mighty torwards the Avengers

Bullshit, Tony's entire reason for signing was "it's better than the alternative." Yet that somehow doesn't apply to Wanda?

What's Capn's actual argument besides "tony's a dick" tone policing bullshit again?

This. But they both shown valid points.

>The accords were entirely valid in concept.
Yes. And Cap recognized that but he also had equally valud fears the Accords will become Project Insight 2.0 but this time with a Team of Super people instead of just 3 Helicarriers. Tony's own paranoia and shared guilt ride didn't help matters.

They were both right, it's just that Cap had the superior morality.

Regulations make perfect sense when you are dealing with flawed humans with powers they can't control, like Iron Man and most of the enhanced Humans. Iron Man needs regulations because while he may be a technological genius he's emotionally stunted and it essentially a manchild, as could be expected of someone who grew up with enough resources to never have to worry about anything until it literally blows up in his face. Just look at the scene at the end of Civil War, when he finds out the Winder Soldier killed his parents. He knows that James Barnes didn't do it, an evil organization used his physical body to accomplish their goals. However he's still to emotional to accept that two entities can share the same physical body and not be the same person. Which is odd since he's done so much work with AI.

cont.

I share caps worries but would have just signed to get the feds off my back and have the fight about doing what they want at a later date

>Tony
Reminder Cap agreed with all of those points but Tony wasn't seeing the full picture because he was busy being guilt ridden.

>We have to have our powers regulated
By who? Is the government any less likely to go power mad then they are? If the capes do go power mad are they suddenly not going to go power made because whoops i signed a piece of paper that promised i wouldnt. Are the capes miraculously not going to make mistakes that cost peoples lives because they signed a piece of paper?

That politicians are just people with agendas, and those agendas could keep the Avengers from going where they're needed or send them somewhere to do some shit they disagree with.

All of tony's concerns were valid.
The deal fixes none of them

That was probably his course of action before Peggy's death, Sharon's speech and the whole UN bombing thing.

So what happens when China starts making radioactive men and the UN can't decide between doing nothing or having the Avengers attack Hong Kong?

Captain America on the other and is literally ubermensch. His superiority is internal: physically, mentally, and morally. He has the ability to consider long term outcomes and apply his strength in accordance with his will. What is right to ordinary humans compared to cap is like trying to compare what's right for domestic pets compared to humans. Dogs would prefer we not sheer their nuts off, but we know if we let them run around with their genitals they'll breed themselves to starvation, so we do it anyway. Captain America, luckily for us peons, has rationalized civil liberties for the common man and realized that a regulatory body such as the UN can be just as compromised as shield. So knowing that humans if left alone will devolve into tyranny, Cap is left no alternative to become a dictator who ensures freedom.

Tony stark is TRYING to be in control and fails because he lacks true power behind his will. Captain America IS in control, and he knows it internally. Unlike Tony he has nothing to prove to his inferiors, he merely is correct and if we can't keep up it's our fault, and if we're lucky he'll explain himself later after he's done having us from ourselves like a parent keeping children from falling off a cliff.

Tony was not a 100% but Steve was 100% wrong.

"We can police ourselves." Then goes off the rails leaving a wake of destruction that even made Bucky go, "I don't know if I am even worth this."

Thanks for proving that Tony knew what he was doing.

desu if the avengers didn't like the deal the un was offering they should have negotiated a better one

The funniest one is when they bring up SHIELD's fuck up when it related to HYDRA and tried to pin the destruction on cap even though the whole point was that a Government org (which is a million times more well run and useful than the fucking UN) was infiltrated and destroyed from the inside.

Some random spec op agent managed to fuck up the avengers and the UN's shit.

None of this would've happened if Fury was still kicking.

>"We can police ourselves." Then goes off the rails leaving a wake of destruction that even made Bucky go, "I don't know if I am even worth this."
Steve was right with regards to Zemo's plot but this part literally made me kek.

Tony was right to kick Steve's ass over him withholding the information of his parents' deaths. Seriously Cap, what the fuck.

Didn't Tony flat-out say "this'll probably get amended out eventually" anyway and that it's more of a symbolic thing?
And why is the dude who just spent an entire movie telling the government to go fuck off worried the government might tell him to do/not do something he doesn't want to?

>None of this would've happened if Fury was still kicking.
The writers' reasoning for Fury not involving himself is because he was a like "parent" who was letting his "kids" grow by the deciding things on their own. Kinda retarded logic but hey.

Literally Steve's only direct mistake (which he recognizes, mind you) was keeping the Starks deaths from Tony. Everything else was spot on. The powers trying to reign over then aren't trusty and easily thrown off by a guy in a rubber mask. Bucky is guilt ridden and have the right of feeling like crap but he was being too hard on himself. Fortunately he has a pal like Steve that keeps believing in him even when he feels like giving up. Cap wouldn't argue for Bucky being processed. That's why Zemo made him a kill target. Cap wouldn't ever allow such injustice. Much less sign with that people.

The whole time they were showing the footage i was just wating for someone to ask 'Okay so what would you do that would have changed things?' because that cuts right to the center of the issue.

Tony's concerns were legit but the deal is literally useless. The Government isn't stopping a rampaging Hulk if anything they'll make the situation worse. The Government isn't stopping a rampaging Thor, in fact, no one is. Hell, to stop any other rampaging superhero they'd need some of the avengers help, if Tony and War Machine while Thor and Hulk are off in space decide to go rouge who the fuck brings them in? No one except supers who would've done it in the first place.


The UN deal just ties them up in a hilariously incompetent organization that later in the movie stops Stark from actually addressing Zemo making Stark act like he's going for Cap.

Literally the only thing that Tony was right about. Seriously, imagine that Cap knew all about this ever since the end of TWS and he basically kept this to himself all throughout AOU.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

I think both Tony and Cap were right in each their own way. Tony was right, they do need some kind of rules of engagement, some kind of outside regulation. But Cap was right in that they need the freedom as sentient beings to make their own decisions.

Yep that was a serious fuck up but it's like the only thing you can blame entirely on Cap. And he wants to make amends when circumstances allow it. Hence the phone scene.

Absolutely. However, this concept also involves the governments of the world:
> looking out for the common good
> actually caring about eachother
> not being mired shoulder-deep in bureaucracy and red-tape
> being able to move swiftly and decisively
and of course, the utter stupidity that is the veto system of the UN Security Council will probably prevent the Avengers from moving in all but the most dire of circumstances.

Cap
>this document just shifts the blame
>it's run by people with agendas
>you chose to [destroy weapons in the wrong hands]. If we sign this we surrender our right to choose.
>what if this panel sends us somewhere we don't want to go
>what if there is somewhere we need to go and they won't let us

Tony
>cuts a deal with Ross, a man he knows has no sense of personal accountability
>the accords would still send them after threats like Ultron and people would still die by accident, the accords would solve nothing other than allowing Tony an excuse because 117 countries signed off on it
>the accords are a political body and they've already seen countless politicians who were corrupt or secretly Hydra agents - the moment the accords were given authority over the avengers the UN panel became the priority target for subversion by bad guys and governments alike to enforce their own agendas using the Avenger's powers
>goes to war against his friends over a piece of paper despite the damage they cause
>takes a 15 year old kid into battle without his guardian's knowledge or permission
>finally learns the truth when he actually looks into Cap's claims (or has Friday do it)
>tells Ross the truth
>Ross refuses to let him go, tells him he's lucky he's not in jail
>Tony, not able to secure permission to go where he feels he needs to go, choose to disobey and do what he thinks is right
>ends up using his armor as a weapon to murder a man who was a mind-controlled victim and when told he's been emotionally compromised and that what he's doing won't help anything Tony refuses to stand down because he doesn't care.
>Tony never once tries to go after Zemo or even seems to remember Zemo exists and started all this

Tony ends up being everything he claims to be against and runs into exactly what Cap warned him would happen. To top it off he goes full murder retard.

But it's a Captain America movie so we all knew who was going to be the true hero in this flick.

Tony knows Ross of old. The whole Incredible Hulk incident. Ross empowered Blonsky using a knockoff super soldier serum and the guy went off the deepend, turned himself into the Abomination, and killed a bunch of innocent people. Ross later went on to become Secretary of State.

Funny how Ross had no such accountability or responsibility for what he did and the shit floats to the top as usual with a big fat promotion. At least his daughter probably still hates and refuses to have anything to do with him, so some karmic retribution there.

and those people are stupid and shouldnt influence the decisions of people who could actually make changes

>We have to pay for our actions
says the guy who just got a slight sense of guilt 5 movies later

>Fuck civilians
how the fuck do you get to this conclusion?

This is impirtant. For a moment it seems Tony wants a way to share/pass respinsability for his actions so he can sleep at night while Cap believes a man must face his shit upfront. Signing the accords rid them of some of that responsability which makes them look better to the suits but also rid them of the freedom of taking desicions.

i haven't seen the movie, what's the actual deal that's supposed to be made here and what actual rules would the avengers have to follow?

When you think about it the Avengers should have told Ross to fuck off and let the UN create their own International Buddy Force.

Putin can supply Crimson Dynamo, Captain Britain for the UK, etc etc. Ross can even dope himself into The All-American Rulk.

I think as much as Steve was talking from a place that was Bucky-centric I think Tony was coming from a place of personal guilt. There's the argument in a lot of comics (in world) that the hero encourages or necessitates the creation of the villain. But , at least in MCU Tony is more involved and in some cases directly responsible for the creation of the things he's been fighting. And I think he projects that onto the rest of the team. And maybe there's a solid argument that Tony does need some kind of supervision to safeguard his reckless actions but the rest of the team seems better capable of handling things on there own.

I still wondering why even them still ignore that fact.

Sure, the next time some aline race tries to anihilate our civilization or a crazy military steals a virus that could decimate a country they could just do nothing to prevent a couple of buildings coming down.

Because he is a hypocrite. So it was obvious he'd make a great politicians. Just watch out. By the time of IW he's probably President Ross.

>if you don't sign this then everything will go to shit
>everything goes to shit
No brainer, chief.

>I think as much as Steve was talking from a place that was Bucky-centric I think Tony was coming from a place of personal guilt.
This. Both of them have very real points for their sides. But at the same time it's interesting that they also have a clear personal stake. Tony feels guilty and trusts the UN to make decisions for him more than he trusts himself. And if they make the wrong call, it absolves him of guilt because he wasn't calling the shot. Cap is fighting for Bucky because he's his best friend obviously, but he also happens to be the one single thing Steve still has left of his old life since Peggy died. Steve can't bear to let that go.

Fucking this. I'm waiting for Thanos to break some heavy shit and see the UN reaction.

>Didn't Tony flat-out say "this'll probably get amended out eventually" anyway and that it's more of a symbolic thing?
If Tony truly believed that he's an idiot.

>correlation means causation

>let the UN create their own International Buddy Force.
That's called escalation and that's not a good thing.

Didn't this guy create Ultron? Didn't this guy just let Terrorist attack his home and beckon them to come? All of a sudden he wants accountability? Why isn't he behind bars for his crimes against humanity?

You know if everyone had just done as they were told then the bad events of the film would have been much more limited.

You cannot have an independent team going around raping everyone's sovereign airspace, waters and soil and expect that to last very long. The fact it took this long to come up is purely a product of film making.

Also Tony was written pretty stupid at times. Seriously man Zemo was RIGHT THERE!!

thanks for explaining things in a even better way. or perhaps from the emotional side of the characters. Tony wants to assuage his guilt by signing the Accords. By signing the Accords its like pleading guilty in a court of law and admitting he fucked up somewhere. One of the first times in the history of all the movies he's been in that he showed some kind of serious remorse and emotional distress over the stuff that's happened.

Rodgers on the other hand looks at things from another emotional standpoint. The ideal that each man must take upon himself the guilt for his own actions, no matter how heroic or villainous.

>The opening scene showed well enough how out of control the collateral damage with all these Avenger Battles was getting.

Yeah they should have let Crossbones blow up his grenade without interfering

the same reaction in every movie. "Let's give up and hope they do a Roman style takeover"

I disagree with the other user but Crossbones was literally trying to goad Cap into fight so he could blow himself up. Had it been someone else he sure as hell wouldn't gone full Jihad then and there. Didn't help that Cap got distracted by the mere mention of Bucky.

i don't know why tony can't sign an accord saying that he, tony, the guy who fucked up and created ultron, won't do anything without UN permission, and then all the avengers who are actually heroes can go on being heroic and fighting evil the same way they had been doing.

or you know, maybe tony could just sign a thing with the rest of the avengers saying that because they're heroes and he isn't, that they'll tell him what to do, and he'll do it, instead of doing the stupid shit he wants to do.

>Didn't Tony flat-out say "this'll probably get amended out eventually" anyway and that it's more of a symbolic thing?
see, tony's a fucking retard. this would be improbable with real world governments, and he's applying it to fucking mcu civillian led governments

I'm the only one who thinks Sokovia is a really terrible name?

It sounds like a fictional country from a disney TV movie

>It sounds like a fictional country from a disney TV movie
Well...

Wouldn't be surprised if it was inspired from "Slorenia", which was a fictional country in the comics where Ultron murdered the entire population.

That's called an inevitability. You think once the US had nukes and people saw just how terrible they are everyone agreed to put the genie back in the bottle and never speak of it again? Of course not. Everybody wanted nukes. Several countries have succeeded.

Agents of SHIELD pointed out how the Accords lays the framework of super power registration. Ross doesn't want loose nukes. They need to know who has powers, what they can do, and where they are at all times. And what do people do with lists like that? Start recruiting. Happened easily enough in the comics. Several countries have tried to create their own super soldiers, some have succeeded. Many have their own nationalized super hero teams. In the comic Civil War they had the 50-State Initiative. Every state in our great union deserves it's own local super hero team!

Once people know there is power they'll try to claim it and some will abuse it. Once they legitimize powered groups others will want their own. There are 196 countries today. How many who didn't sign the Accords may decide to go their own way?

He killed his mom, yo.

Why? As it stands, it meant more as a gesture than an actual effort at regulation. As if anyone could actually prevent the Avengers from taking action. People were just spooked because a rogue group of superpowered individuals were running around the world doing whatever the fuck they wanted. The accords would have provided peace of mind.

Couldn't use Latveria after all

Well no shit; even if they had the rights Doom would've kicked Ultron's ass right out of his country.

>tried to pin the destruction on cap

Well he is the one who pulled the trigger on dropping several kilotons of metal on the country's capital.

When the alternative was "The government that has been spying on us for decades now has the power to spy on us more."

Exactly. Everyone has a breaking point. That's why Tony's armors need a failsafe shutdown code known to his closest friends and now Secretary of State Ross.

>Friday, execute override: Alpha Whiskey Double Shot Bourbon Tango On the Rocks

You gotta admit that would've been a much better movie than we've got.

So has Peter's new suit one?

>Ultron is here. Humanity is doomed.
>I. AM. DOOM!
>...Wanna make out?
>YES!

>mfw Rich from RLM got owned on this

THIS
H
I
S

If he didn't Ross himself might have been toast now.
I hope Thanos will rape Ross to death.

And we all know the Accords will be gone after IW anyway.

The Iron Spider suit actually did, in the comics. But Peter managed to bypass it once he caught on to the fact that Stark is fucking paranoid as fuck and was secretly monitoring him.

Knowing Tony? Probably, but Peter wasn't going to betray Iron Man this time around. He needs to get back home in time for his own movie. Can't be stuck in ocean hellhole prison or Wakanda.

Tony was right in the sense that he acted less retarded.

The Accords were dumb, but Tony knew if they signed on and cooperated they'd have a better chance to make it more palatable down the line. Like Black Widow said "one hand on the wheel"

Instead Steve assaulted officers to save his friend, which resulted in his friend mursering even more people once he was brainwashed again. He directly antagonized the authorities Tony was trying to appeal to and basically fucked the who diplomacy effort for "muh Bucky"

Look man, in the real world, if there were people who could like level city blocks with their minds, I would want them to have to answer to some kind of authority. We register guns, Superhero > guns, we register superheroes

Incidentally, the economist did an ironic story on this where they came down on the side of the Avengers signing the Sokovia Accords. Very amusing, worth the read if you haven't already:
economist.com/news/diversions/21698458-avengers-should-agree-be-placed-under-un-supervision

He was right about the accords, wrong about Bucky