Ok so many people here will remember my thread yesterday in which I a Keynesian argued against many Austrians and free marketists. Many of them used logical fallacies and I debunked them without a second thought. However there was a few that BTFOed me. I had to completely rethink my views and had to re-read some MMT sites and I think I am fully healed back to Keynesian. I am now ready to debunk any Austrians again. One argument I couldn't get over is "if the government really was good during Keynesian times why was interest on the debt so high"? I still can't find the answer. In the 1940s to 1970s the government bonds was like 4%. One explanation I heard is because government bonds are RISK FREE 100% they could of had it lower down to 1% but thought that by having banks loan at higher interest rates it would reward savers which the government wanted. Because theoretically the banks are suppose to (and mostly did at the time) give most of the money they earned back to the savers.
I'm back ready to BTFO some Austrians in a debate but I think I will need help from fellow Keynesians.
Is central banking necessary? How can we trust unelected people having so much control over the economy?
Nathan Peterson
What do you mean "get past threads"? Do you mean to bring your thread up on the catalog from page 5 to 1? If so, you need people to post in your thread. You, as the OP, can only bump your thread after 10 minutes of your last post. However, to activate this you have to have made a reply to your own thread first.
Austin Gray
>Is central banking necessary? Yes
>How can we trust unelected people having so much control over the economy? It's like having the military generals unelected. Also we elect the President which appoints the FED chairmen. The reason we can trust them is because unlike what conspiracies tell you they don't actually get rich crashing the economy.
Dylan Roberts
Can I just say those rap battle guys are total excellence?
Apart from that, lurking. Keyne Toad here, but I dont have the technical knowledge to provide anymore more shitpostz
Anthony Brown
I can't understand that.
Jose Perry
Well at least you are on the right track. Keynes was British and you should see him as a national treasury. Get it!
Adrian Rodriguez
Keynesian who can debunk any Austrian Argument
Cameron Carter
Thanks it was still on the catelog.
Easton Flores
Fuck off new fag
Hunter Martin
I'm not new dumb WONRG PUAL THEORIST
Blake Ross
You an economist OP?
Jordan Nelson
Can you mentlegen summarise the Austrian position for me?
Brody Green
First year uni I will be the new Keynes tho and will call myself CANES
No problem. Will do in its own reply.
Ayden Williams
Have you wondered how you were BTFO by a preteen girl?
12-year old Victoria Grant explains why her homeland, Canada, and most of the world, is in debt.
Prove her wrong. Protip, you can't.
Brandon Diaz
Because free markets, limited currency and government regulation. They'd prefer gold standard but if using FIAT there would be no increase in money supply. They believe supply and demand should have the price of things and saving is better than spending.
Ayden Wood
I've seen that video and it's a bunch of conspiracy theories.
>Canada is in debt because the corrupt international monetary system blah blah blah Yet these same people say JFK, Hitler, Lincoln, Jefferson, and Otto Von Mismarck somehow fought back against this banking system without realizing something.
The nations under those rulers were all still in debt! So clearly it's not a conspiracy because every nation ever in history with VERY FEW exceptions were in debt. And the few exceptions can be explained with a shortage of population, and all that.
Anthony Rogers
this.
Central banking should exist but should be set by the state, not a private bank with zero oversight..
Chase Miller
What are your thoughts on a guaranteed minimum income? (GMI =/= Basic Income)
What are your thoughts on the welfare system? How could it be more efficient in terms of helping people and not sending a country into trillions of dollars of debt?
Camden Miller
...
Jonathan Clark
You can't just print money forever. Thoughts?
Nathaniel Lopez
What's wrong with a free market? What exactly are you against? How much freedom in a market should there be?
Landon Martinez
The idea that the Central Bank is privately owned and that is the reason we are in debt is non-sense. Every nation ever (with few exceptions) were in debt. If National Debt is really the result of some conspiracy than every President (besides Jackson) were in on this conspiracy. And every single world leader besides Gaddafi were in on this conspiracy.
Joseph Wright
America didn't start a perpetual debt cycle (debt that will never be paid off) until the time of JFK, who actively sought a solution. Lincoln and Jefferson never had prolonged public debt to worry about because the debt was physical bonds owned by American companies and peoples, not banks. And Germany was only in debt from the bleeding of the international banking system each time they lost a war.
Hitlers economy was pretty much the most stable and successful in history..
Zachary Cruz
Ok thanks. The opposite of Keyes, is what we're saying.
What historical periods of economic success do the Austrians claim as theirs?
Probably best if an Austrian answers, No cunt would expect you to argue both sides.
John Nelson
>What are your thoughts on a guaranteed minimum income? (GMI =/= Basic Income) I don't think it's needed right now because there are still plenty of jobs. However in the future with more automation yes we will need it or have mass unemployment
>You can't just print money forever If GDP is going up forever than yes. Until GDP stops growing yes you can continue to print money
Many flaws my man. Under a free market businesses will take in more money than they expell via job creation because that's the whole point of a business. Under a free market businesses would act as black holes for money and eventually consume all of it in the economy.
Bentley Sanders
>If GDP is going up forever than yes. Until GDP stops growing yes you can continue to print money so is this the sort of economic system that would require you to import mass refugees/migrants if your native population isn't reproducing at replacement rate?
Cameron Nelson
>businesses would act as black holes for money How do you prevent this without driving away businesses to developing countries with little to no labor and consumer regulation?
Christopher Davis
>America didn't start a perpetual debt cycle (debt that will never be paid off) until the time of JFK, who actively sought a solution Actually the debt to GDP ratio was lowering since FDR. If it kept going at the rate from FDR to JFK we would be debt free by now.
>Lincoln and Jefferson never had prolonged public debt to worry about because the debt was physical bonds owned by American companies and peoples, not banks What do you mean? Banks are in the business of loaning money, companies aren't. Banks always loaned the government money and did during the Civil War.
>And Germany was only in debt from the bleeding of the international banking system each time they lost a war. But I thought Hitler fought off the international banking system?
Gabriel Cooper
Check online archives, bro. Also are postkeynesians better than neokeynesians? I've heard that posties are truer to Lord K's vision, and that postKeynes and Austrians were the only ones to predict a particular recent financial problem, I forget which one.
Bentley Sanders
>first year uni
So you are 18-19 years old, barley started your exposure to economics classes, and claim to be an economic master mind that can debate to no end.
Jesus man, how autistic are you?
Thomas Davis
>What historical periods of economic success do the Austrians claim as theirs? Industrial Revolution in England. I will try to argue both sides. They argue that Austrian economics in England is what caused MASSIVE growth in factory production and caused technological advancment
Keynesians would respond by saying that's true but 95% of the wealth created in that boom was in the hands of the rich. Keynesian economics brought that wealth to the middle class.
Ayden Moore
You didn't understand a fair shred of that.
Kaynesianism is a meme that ends with the American dollars, and all currencies attached, are abandoned.
How else does ((((trillions)))) of dollars be reprehended relative to a worthless scale?
Elijah Edwards
>so is this the sort of economic system that would require you to import mass refugees/migrants if your native population isn't reproducing at replacement rate? No because we don't advocate printing money when it's not needed. We only advocate printing money rather than not when GDP is increasing. Increasing GDP through immigration isn't really improving the country because sure the GDP goes up but the GDP/per capita stays the same or even lowers.
Protectionism. But 35% Tariffs on imported goods. What Trump is doing.
Elijah Reed
Free Trade: The Second Coming of Kek or the Anti-Lulz?
What do we do with low-income workers who loses their jobs? I don't see how it's sustainable for a lot of them to go to college or technical school. It would only saturate the market just like with STEM majors.
Oliver Campbell
>Also are postkeynesians better than neokeynesians I don't think so and heres why. Neo-Keynesians are basically MMTers and post-keynesians are basically the New Dealers. Post-Keynesians advocated the government selling bonds to finance itself while neo-keynesians say the government should print money to finance itself and only self bonds to curb inflation.
Caleb Perry
He's just alike the majority of my generation, makes it easier for successful people to do well however!
Charles Thompson
>So you are 18-19 years old, barley started your exposure to economics classes, and claim to be an economic master mind that can debate to no end. I stand on the shoulders of giants thats why. I know my shit believe me
>Kaynesianism is a meme that ends with the American dollars, and all currencies attached, are abandoned. It applies to any currency
>How else does ((((trillions)))) of dollars be reprehended relative to a worthless scale? Because taxes bring value to it because everyone must pay taxes.
Aaron Lopez
>Keynesian economics brought that wealth to the middle class. Interesting. Never heard it put it that way.
How do Keynesians bring the wealth to the middle class? All I know about Keynesianism is that you guys like to manipulate the interest rates and inflate the currency by printing money without being backed by any commodity.
Leo Green
Austrian vs Keynesian meme needs to die from the 50's.
Both have been completely incorporated into modern macro and are serving their purpose.
Cameron Johnson
>Free Trade: The Second Coming of Kek or the Anti-Lulz? Keynesians are AGAINST free trade. So anti-lulz
>What do we do with low-income workers who loses their jobs? I don't see how it's sustainable for a lot of them to go to college or technical school. It would only saturate the market just like with STEM majors. Bring back the jobs from overseas. If they don't have jobs to to automation than guaranteed basic income will be the only solution. But for now there are jobs for people tho they are leaving fast.
Xavier Torres
>Keynesians are AGAINST free trade. So anti-lulz would you say it's anti-jewish?
Connor Evans
> How do Keynesians bring the wealth to the middle class? All I know about Keynesianism is that you guys like to manipulate the interest rates and inflate the currency by printing money without being backed by any commodity. Heres why. Keynesians say government funded public works should be done to help the unemployed. These workers will be paid good money, if the private sector wants these workers to work for them they will have to raise their wage even higher. So corporations won't be able to pay people starvation wages because otherwise the people would go back to working for the public sector.
Public sector jobs for everyone prevents corporations from being able to bid peoples wages down. Wages under keynesianism will naturally rise giving the workers (middle class) a better share of the wealth.
Ryder Foster
What would be the Keyne toad position on Brexit?
Is the EU Keynsian, and UK is now pursuing Austrian model, or is that too simplistic?
Connor Jenkins
>Doesn't know about archives >Couldn't link to a past thread
>Not new
David Perez
>modern macro That's just the topic
It's like Darwins theory and Lamarcks theory are both in the topic of evolution
Landon Rivera
Yes. Keynes was one of the few Anglo-Saxon economists. Both Marxists and Austrians are mainly Jewish.
Adrian Ward
>Increasing GDP through immigration isn't really improving the country because sure the GDP goes up but the GDP/per capita stays the same or even lowers.
We imported too many immigrants and got our productivity enriched.
Its 2016 and productivity is still flat as a pancake.
Jaxon Watson
>How do Keynesians bring the wealth to the middle class? All I know about Keynesianism is that you guys like to manipulate the interest rates and inflate the currency by printing money without being backed by any commodity.
Heres why. Keynesians say government funded public works should be done to help the unemployed. These workers will be paid good money, if the private sector wants these workers to work for them they will have to raise their wage even higher. So corporations won't be able to pay people starvation wages because otherwise the people would go back to working for the public sector.
Public sector jobs for everyone prevents corporations from being able to bid peoples wages down. Wages under keynesianism will naturally rise giving the workers (middle class) a better share of the wealth.
Joseph Cook
>I know my shit believe me
>First year uni
>I know my shit. >Believe me
Jordan Allen
Keynesians are VERY pro-Brexxit. The EU is the Austrian theory in physical form. Pro-austerity, limited currency, all that. Keynesians believe economies should be fixed by stimulas, EU believes austerity.
Michael Lopez
This is wrong, an Austrian would state that money is just another commodity and should be handled by the market by a means of competing currencies. Austrian economics and praxiology make no political statements, do not confuse people who happen to follow Austrian economics creating political theory as the assertions of the economic theory itself.
Dylan James
I don't know which school I would consider myself part of. Do you have any recommendations on books to reas about each school?
Disregard this, this guy has precisely fuck all knowledge about what Austrians are talking about.
David Powell
Your
Austrian> cash to Boss class Keyenes> cash toBourgeois class
thing is getting good traction- would you say then the natural corollary of this is
Marx>cash to proletariat?
In whch case, we're not looking at a sytem where we are striving to arrive at the most efficient economic model; rather, the differing economic models are now tools to be used in the pursuit of Class War.
It is great at explaining Keynesian theory and how government deficits help the economy
>Austrian theory pic related is a great book on it
Brandon Thompson
Austrians and Keynesians are not that different if you actually look at what they wrote. Remembers that Post-Keynesian economics and MMT are not what economists call Keynesian. These last two are bullshit (and so is Austrian economics, btw). They are all assuming so much crap but theysay they're not kek
Daniel Morales
>Keynesians say government funded public works I actually agreed with this. Have I been a Keynesian this whole time?
The only thing that bothers me is the whole inflation thing. From what my understanding Keynesians want constant inflation every single year in perpetual. My layman mind is thinking that eventually a country's currency will reach Zimbabwe levels. Is it acceptable in the Keynesian mind that milk will eventually be $10 a gallon due to inflation?
Jose Hall
>The EU is the Austrian theory in physical form. Pro-austerity, limited currency
>The conglomeration of economies who signed a pack to keep 3% annual deficits and 60% Debt-GDP ratio, and has only 8 of the 25+ countries abiding by the rules >The conglomeration that has allowed massive concessions and exemptions >The group who has supported massive bailouts
>Pro austerity, limited currency
Zachary Nelson
Bitch I know my shit
That's not true. Keynes doesn't give cash to the bourgeois it gives it to the proletariat (middle class/working class).
James Richardson
>>The group who has supported massive bailouts Ok you're a troll.
Josiah Gomez
>I know my shit, believe me
You say that until your sophomore year when your professors will shit on you with methodologically rigorous courses.
I thought I was a good historian until my HI-200 and Cold War history class fucked me in the ass.
Go back to the library and study ya cunt.
Cooper Peterson
Nor can you mine gold forever
Mason Sanchez
As someone who is interested in economics as a hobby I can give you some austrian reading.
Economics in one lesson - Henry Hazlitt - short book on basic economic principles Man economy and state - Murray Rothbard- This is a massive treatise - skip power and market if you just want economic analysis from the ground up without politcs
Jose Reed
Oh neat are we going to have another Hayek vs Keynes rap battle?
What the fuck do you think the loans to Greece were?
Lucas Phillips
>A >Fucking >Leaf
Dylan Peterson
Without googling, what is marginal utility
Daniel Collins
>I actually agreed with this. Have I been a Keynesian this whole time? Quite possibly
>The only thing that bothers me is the whole inflation thing. From what my understanding Keynesians want constant inflation every single year in perpetual. My layman mind is thinking that eventually a country's currency will reach Zimbabwe levels. Is it acceptable in the Keynesian mind that milk will eventually be $10 a gallon due to inflation? Keynesians want inflation to be a t 2% levels. When we say we want to print a ton of money we don't mean to cause hyper inflation. It's because productivity is so high with modern technology that if you refused to print money it would actually cause DEFLATION which would slow business activity.
At 2% inflation rate a $3 milk gallon would cost $10 in MANY MANY years. I'm talking like 200 years.
Thomas Parker
Jesus ducking christ. Shill more, faggot.
There is nothing Austrians hate more than ceding autonomy to a central beaurocracy. The euro fucking KILLED what was left of competing currencies in Europe. Keynesians love the EU because they love central governments and central control.
Austrians are basically entirely right wing. I have never met or seen an Austrian that was left wing. Leave was a right wing cause, not left. Fuck right off leaf. Quit trying to shill people away from learning about Austrian econ
Robert Collins
>Point out events that contradict you claims
>Ok You're a troll
Jayden Barnes
Theft. The ECB is sucking the money out of Greece
Cold war is easy as shit. I just watched Bridge of Spies it's not complicated at all
I can't wait until the third or IF there is a third
No clue.
David Morales
Read economics in one lesson, it's only 200 pages you can finish it in an hour. I don't know why you're arguing against Austrian economic theory when you don't know any basic economic law
Caleb Hughes
Please learn more
>There is nothing Austrians hate more than ceding autonomy to a central beaurocracy. The euro fucking KILLED what was left of competing currencies in Europe. Keynesians love the EU because they love central governments and central control. First off the ECB has no treasury to put it's money into making the ECB a black hole of money. Keynesians want money to be printed and spread around not sucked up. That's why we love the FED it puts it's money back into the treasury to be spent again
>Leave was a right wing cause Are you fucking kidding me? Jason Unruhe the Marxist rebel came out pro-Brexxit. Keynesian want national currencies that can be printed by the sovereign government.
Tyler Morales
I know ADVANCED economics you don't even know basic.
Aiden Parker
>Cold War is easy as shit. I just watched bridge of Spies
Really? Then tell me about the geopolitical plays in Africa and how Cuban involvement in Angola was a giant middle finger to the Russians. Or how race relations in the U.S. impacted the Reagan administration's backing of South Africa?
Tell me about Castro and his relationship with Eisenhower when the Cuban revolution started. What did the Soviets think of Castro?
Explain the historiography of the Cold War overall, how it is interpreted and cited?
If a movie taught you everything about the Cold War and since you are the debate master it should be easy for you.
Sebastian Nelson
Fuck off pol is classical/Austrian.
Kevin Howard
>Central bank >quantitative easing pick one.
Leo Wright
he's fucking trolling dude just sage and hide the thread
Cameron Murphy
>I only know Austrian theory from the rap battle >The EU is the Austrian theory in physical form you really are clinically retarded
Justin Reyes
>Really? Then tell me about the geopolitical plays in Africa and how Cuban involvement in Angola was a giant middle finger to the Russians Basically each country got their own colonies. U.S did secret imperialism/corporate imperialism to steal from Africa while USSR straight up stole the land medievil style. Also Cuba because they knew the Russians wanted it badly but Russians couldn't steal it from them because they were both in the same union.
>Or how race relations in the U.S. impacted the Reagan administration's backing of South Africa? Basically Reagan pumped more money into the drug war which destroyed black communities so blacks started to hate him. So he decided "if blacks hate me I will hate them" and backed South Africa because they hated blacks as well.
>Tell me about Castro and his relationship with Eisenhower when the Cuban revolution started They hated eachother.
>What did the Soviets think of Castro? Loved him
>Explain the historiography of the Cold War overall, how it is interpreted and cited? It's a big dick-waving contest between America and the USSR
>If a movie taught you everything about the Cold War and since you are the debate master it should be easy for you. It is easy.
Brandon Johnson
Sup Forums supports Trump and Trump is a Keynesian
What?
>Austrian economicst >Not trolling please get out
I am the one in school right now.
Matthew Long
>At 2% inflation rate a $3 milk gallon would cost $10 in MANY MANY years. I'm talking like 200 years. Fair enough.
Could a currency like Zimbabwe that has $1,000 and $10,000 bills simply cut a few zeros to bring them to $10 and $100?
Brody Powell
THIS IS 4TH DIMENSIONAL LEAF POSTING. please for the love of god don't respond to these threads. This guy has brought a new level of shitposting to my country.
Henry Hernandez
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Le epic ruse my friend
Thomas Williams
So the vibe I'm getting is "Remember that time I decimated all those stupid Austrians?" nobody else remembers. Besides, anybody economically-minded knows that permanent growth isn't possible and ungoverned "stimulation" through QE and market restrictions have rapidly and systematically destroyed entire sectors of the economy at a time. Haven't you noticed how every bubble that pops be it the dotcom, bonds, or whatever never recovers to pre-crash ? Housing is sort of an exception because the investments are more tangible than little bits of paper. When people talk of the happening, they're often times referring to the chaos the central bank is about to summon. Alan Greenspan has been murmuring of fiscal catastrophe for a while, now. The world's greatest con (the USD) has survived under the legacy of Keynesian economics and sooner or later that hammer is going to fall. You say Keynesian economics applies to any , I'd like to correct that to fiat currencies. Until we learn how to print gold and have discover free infinite electricity, there's going to be finite commodities beyond the scope of centralized manipulation.
Colton Wright
>Could a currency like Zimbabwe that has $1,000 and $10,000 bills simply cut a few zeros to bring them to $10 and $100? Yeah when inflation gets too hyper (hyperinflation) governments often come up with a new deflated currency and have all old bills be turned in for 1/10 of new ones.
However Zimbabwe hyper-inflation is not entirely the fault of money printing. It is lack of production and heres why. Think of if you had a gift card to Amazon, and Amazon started running out of items to buy, what would happen to the card? It would lose it's value because it can buy less things. That's what happened with Zimbebwe. When the blacks kicked the whites out and burned down their own cities they destroyed all valuable goods so their money couldn't buy anything, it lost it's value because there was nothing to buy with the money. Printing money was a reaction to that because the government believed a stimulas could get production back up.
Jace Phillips
>First year uni >I know my shit believe me >Bitch I know my shit >I know ADVANCED economics you don't even know basic.
And I thought Krugman was delusional
Dominic Morris
>>Central bank Econ major. Your in your addolesence stage in economic thought, centralized command control economies do not work and never have, not comunisim and not central. Truth be told economies are too complicated for central banks to control and they reliably make things worse not better, they ride out their loses and cut their winners short through market intervention not to mention the relationship between Central banks and government To really strengthen your understanding you need to open up a history book and just learn what humans do under certain conditions.
Samuel Brooks
Anyone economically-minded knows that Keynesianism created the middle class and Austrian economics creates Ghettos.
>The world's greatest con (the USD) has survived under the legacy of Keynesian economics and sooner or later that hammer is going to fall. Why have interest rates on money loaned to the U.S government fallen then?
>You say Keynesian economics applies to any , I'd like to correct that to fiat currencies. Until we learn how to print gold and have discover free infinite electricity, there's going to be finite commodities beyond the scope of centralized manipulation. You gotta learn that infinite growth is possible
Anthony Sullivan
Krugman's not delusional he's just an idiot and or shill.
> Your in your addolesence stage in economic thought Nope, I was when I was a free-marketist when I was a 14 year old Ayn Rand fan. My professor has a PHD and is very Keynesian.
Leo Brooks
Also you should read more history and learn more. Keynesianism never failed.
Andrew Lewis
To raise the minimum wage or not to raise the minimum wage. That is the question.
Sebastian Parker
>Basically each country got their own colonies. U.S did secret imperialism/corporate imperialism to steal from Africa while USSR straight up stole the land medievil style. Nope, the U.S. was timid to help back most nations in Africa experiencing a revolution. This can be attributed to the U.K's refusal to recognize Rhodesia. The Soviets were attempted, and were successful, in creating influence in Southern Africa
>Also Cuba because they knew the Russians wanted it badly but Russians couldn't steal it from them because they were both in the same union. Only half right. But the time Castro sent troops to Angola, the relationship between Cuba and the Soviets had broken down complexity. Castro wanted to be more involved on the world stage and helping the Angolans was his way of doing it.
>They hated each other Wrong again, Castro went to NY on two occasions to address the U.N. The first time we had no idea of his communist leanings. The Eisenhower administration saw hims a nationalist, the only reason Castro won was because Batista was a piece of shit, we knew it, so we stopped giving the Cuban army arms and supplies.
>Basically Reagan pumped more money into the drug war which destroyed black communities so blacks started to hate him. So he decided "if blacks hate me I will hate them" and backed South Africa because they hated blacks as well. Way fucking off on that one. The tension from the civil rights movement was just dying down and many in the U.S. had no idea about the ongoing war in Namibia and Angola involving the South Africans. If there was a direct base of support for SA then the world would have condemned the U.S. with SA.
>Loved him Nope, Nikita Khrushchev hated Castro. He saw him as a hothead that only wanted war with the U.S. That was plainly stated in his memoirs, which he wrote under house arrest to save his ass.
You Should read a history book instead of watching movies that are loosely based on facts.
Michael Ramirez
>Econ major. Your in your addolesence stage in economic thought
You're not even properly literate. What university accepts students with grammar like that?
I don't think you are an Economics major. I think you're a faget.
Tyler Parker
You mean 240 GDP/debt in Japan is healthy? It's not even funny how Keynesian rationalize Abenomics.
