CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR

Did you switch sides?

Other urls found in this thread:

econlib.org/library/Enc/Mercantilism.html),
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Entered Team Cap. Left Team Cap. Tony isn't wrong that the Avengers need to have some form of accountability, but the Accords are absolutely ridiculous. The Avengers must be quick and decisive in their actions and shouldn't have to wait for UN approval to act; like all governing bodies it is littered with red tape and infighting, they'd never get anything done quickly enough to make a difference.

HOOOOT DAMN THAT FEMALE CAP!

Anyways, I thought the film really made me feel bad for Tony. It's nice that the film had both sides feel they were right without villainizing one of the sides. As much as Cap was right, he did feel like he was doing some selfish things, and in the end, his friend just went Odin Sleep to escape responsibility.

I like how both sides lost in the end.

Entered Team Cap but opened to Stark. Left Team Cap and thinking Stark needs therapy and to retire because he's far too emotionally unstable for this line of work.

Went in Team Cap, left questioning

why the fuck did they need to bring an unstable assassin with them again? they couldve just turned him in and cleared his name on their own, but nope, gotta cause more property damage because HES YOUR FRIEND

I went in just disliking Stark, not caring much about Cap but then I was sympathetic to Stark's side at the end of the movie.

They did try to turn him in, then Zemo busted him out.

Once they caught up with him again they thought they didn't have enough time to turn back. They went to the airport because they were trying to catch up to Zemo who they thought was already at the bunker and already raising up an army of Buckys to fuck up the world with.

Had they turned him in they would have had to go back to the raft with Tony and then hope that they could convince Tony / Ross to let them chase after Zemo (which they weren't guaranteed to get approval for) and even then It would have been too late.

I would be all for the accords if it was a means for the Avengers to provide MORE help and MORE infrastructure instead of STOPPING THEM.

This deal should focus on debriefing and accountability at the end of emergencies.

Not really escape responsibility. Just make sure he can't be controlled while they look for a way to undo the brainwashing.

Bucky will atone for his undeserved crimes by becoming Captain America once Steve dies.

>Zemo has a helmet

Russo's pls

Nope. Team Cap 100%.
IM2 and Avengers established that superheroes are the correct answer and bureaucracies just fear the presence of power they don't control. Cap 2 established that these bureaucracies, simply by virtue of being composed of a very large number of people, can easily be crawling with neo-nazi conspirators.
Tony in Civil War is doing a complete 180 from his stance in IM2, primarily because he's failing spectacularly at handling responsibility for his own actions. Stark needs to be put in check, Age Of Ultron proved that, but he's externalizing that guilt onto everyone else when they haven't done anything to deserve it like he has.

But Cap, while distrustful of institutionalized power, is always ready to give a person a chance at redemption. For Bucky, for Wanda, even for Tony. For a second there I called bullshit when Cap immediately accepted Tony as a friend again when he showed up in Siberia, but then I realized that it was because Cap is a better man than I am.

Nope, still on Team Hydra

Was on Team Cap from start to finish. I like that Tony was a lot more reasonable/sympathetic than Civil War comic Tony, but it was still a complete one-sided affair. Which isn't to say that Cap was totally in the right (and admitted as such about hiding the truth about Tony's parents) or that Tony didn't have some points, but the second you say that you're handing power to an organization like the UN and have people like Ross calling shots then fuck that.

>This deal should focus on debriefing and accountability at the end of emergencies.
Fucking this. If the accords said that someone would review their missions, check that nothing was particularly out of line, etc. then that would be fine. Handing over direct control is out of the question, though.

Team Cap through thick and thin.

They seemed to be something that Tony thought would deflect responsibility for when he or the other Avengers fucked up

I'm not sure exactly why the UN saying to go stop Ultron would have made it any easier for him to swallow that that kid died, but whatever helps him drink himself to sleep at night, I guess.

Yeah, the thing is that UN orders would have changed absolutely nothing.

Like the incident at the start of the movie. It wasn't because Scarlet Witch was inexperienced or lost control or made a bad decision. A suicide bomber was going to kill hundreds of people, and she failed to contain it and get it far enough away. There's nothing there that suggest negligence and nothing the UN could have said would have avoided that. All it does is shift the blame, most of which is not deserved.

The best argument I feel that Tony's side has is that if the Avengers fuck up, like Tony did when he made Ultron, there will be some responsibility.

Except the last time a power had access to that kind of technology, it was SHIELD and they started to mess around with the Tesseract. The UN isn't SHIELD but it would probably still pull the same dumb crap like that.

Cap. All day, every day.

The accords were just the UN's way of flexing and capitalizing on public fear. Cap fucked up and didn't KO Crossbones instantly. That was the reason for the issues. If the public knew Ultron was Tony's baby, I could see the outrage, but to blame the Avengers, who went out of their way to save everyone they could at great risk to themselves while battling a fucking android army, for not saving everyone is fucking childish. I get that everyone has to deal with loss and some part of that would be lashing out, but fuck off with the sob story about muh New York/DC/Sokovia.

I pitied Tony. The man is an emotional wreck and the UN's agreement came when he was trying to soothe his own guilt. Honestly, I doubt it would. He's too in his own head. He's still kicking himself for being a scrub when his parents died. Alcoholism when?

>Alcoholism when?
I'm really surprised it wasn't alluded to in this movie. I was waiting for it.

I just feel like Tony didn't learn anything from Ultron. I mean you make this weapon and call it a shield and then it turns against you. Now he thinks putting the only people that could save the earth when he fucks ups again in jail is a good idea.

This. The fucking accords need to be applied to Tony, not the rest of the team.

Also, I seem to recall Shield's reaction to an alien invasion in the first Avengers movie was to nuke the largest city in the US. Yeah, lets put more suits in charge.

Entered Cap, left Cap. Tony's side made no fucking sense.

>Hey, you remember those times the world was almost taken over or literally destroyed?
>yeah
>Well a few people died during that, so maybe we should work for the government. The same government that decided to nuke NY instead of try to save it.
>Also, I know logically that Bucky had absolutely no control over killing my parents, but instead of trying to find out who actually did kill them, I'm just gonna fight you guys instead.

Tony was a god damned idiot in this film, ruined the movie for me.

Went in with team Cap, stayed Team Cap even though I understood Stark's side but there were too many fuck ups who were never held accountable and asshole there for me to fully support them.

Plus Tony never listened to Cap and if Cap had fully gone along with Tony then Zemo would have won.

>but the second you say that you're handing power to an organization like the UN and have people like Ross calling shots then fuck that.

Not to mention Tony didn't know what the Sokovia Accords consisted about 100% the way Steve kept asking questions and he just kept going like "I'm sure we'll figure it out" that shit raised a lot of red flags for me.

does fem Iron look like marisa tomei to anyone?

You think that maybe finding out that the man standing next to you murdered your parents might make you a tad irrational?

The rest of the crap is spot on, though

Wow.

Just...wow.

they tried to bring him in. Remember when the authorities decided to gun Bucky down without a trial and not even try to bring him in alive?

Yep sure lovin that accountability there General Ross!

Protip to anyone who thinks Tony was right: The government only wants to hold YOU accountable. When it shits the bed and kills innocents that's just peachy keen.

"It's ok when we do it" is basically the mantra of any organization or political group

If you think you're part of one that isn't, you're wrong.

I'm a libertarian. By definition, it's NOT okay when we do it.

If the idea of being controlled were a new idea to him, then yeah. But after having two movies focused on Bucky not controlling himself as well as having an entire action scene in AoU in which everyone loses control of themselvesl, and even has Tony fight Bruce while trying to bring him under control...

It felt awkward to me. Especially since like two minutes prior there was a revelation that, holy shit, Cap was right about Bucky the whole time.

No. Still Team Cap. But I do wonder if they would go with Shota-Wanda or Bara-Wanda.

The movie did a much better job of making points on both sides (mostly making Tony's side make any sense at all).

Even then though Tony is incredibly hypocritical for believing in the idea that governments should control their actions, and then trying to kill Buckey for actions that he was forced to do for a government

Tony is as capitalist as it gets, he probably unironically believes EBILCOMMUNISM!!! meme.

>Tony being as buxom as Cap

kek not in a million years.

went in neutral, left annoyed by Cap

Cybernetic breast implants, user.

>Toni not having implants

Wait....are you unironically saying that comunism isn't shit and a failed system that always crashes on its implementation, usually with a Mountain of bodies?

It's less evil than capitalism in theory. It might even work if power hungry nutjobs weren't the only ones trying it out.

Damn, that Toni Stark is fine.

Went in team Cap, left team Tony. Steve compromising his duties as an Avenger to go on a personal quest really left a sour taste in my mouth.

Also, I'm done with Tony and Steve in the MCU, Black Panther is where it's at now.

The duty on an Avenger is doing the right thing, Steve stayed true.

hell no
the movie made a great emotional appeal for Tony, but in the end, the accords were too chained to bureaucracy for them to be effective
I agree that the avengers need some kind of check in place, but tying them to the UN and fucking Ross of all people is a terrible idea, and Bucky killing Tony's parents isn't gonna change that

>going with a loose whore

Literally no taste.

No, doing the right thing works as personal motivation, but not as an agenda for an organization consisting of multiple people. Cap did what he felt was right in the context of his relationship with Bucky, the rest of the world be damned. Having an ex-Hydra super-powered brainwashed assassin running around is not conductive for world peace.

Except he's not running around, and never was running until people other than Steve intervened and tried to murder Bucky or put him in a situation where he was vulnerable to someone using their Hydra knowledge on him.

And look at what happens at the end of the movie, Steve and friends put him into suspended animation with his consent until they can find out how to purge the triggers, they don't put a bullet in his head or punish him as a scapegoat just to cover their own asses over a crime he never even committed even while brainwashed.

The same artist also made this one by the way

Any more?
My dick is screaming for more.

would hank the fuck out of this pym

>artist that gives every female the same chest size when it doesn't even make sense

hack

Capitalism has bigger bodycount than communism (Native Americans and all other indigenous populations, slavery) , and has human suffering (starvation, poverty, homelessness) built in as a necessity for the system to work, when communism doesn't.

Communism failing is about as evil as capitalism working as intended.

>I'm not saying we should bring back Soviet Union, I think anarchism works better with communism by design - making individual people help each other makes more sense than creating behemoth government and hoping it will work out well

Cap sums it up.

Went in with Cap. Left with Cap.

>this is what marvel actually believes

America has barely changed at all since the 80s, user. Countries Cap's talking about have changed tremendously.

Find the lie, please.

Team Cap from start to finish, though I felt bad for Tony at the end.

Went in pro-Cap and anti-Tony. Came out still pro-Cap but slightly less anti-Tony.

Went in Team Iron Man left Team Iron Man.

Steve was wrong

I thought Tony had a point at first, but the UN went right ahead and repeatedly proved Cap was right.

Pretty soon it'd be the Avengers sent out with "kill on sight" orders every time some President or King feels threatened.

>Capitalism has bigger bodycount than communism (Native Americans and all other indigenous populations, slavery)

I find that hard to believe. Aside from that many of those capitalist crime are really mercantilist crimes (econlib.org/library/Enc/Mercantilism.html), even if you blame every indigenous and slave death on Capitalism, I can't see how it would add up to close to the 100 million+ dead from Communism.

What issue is this from? Reverse google search isn't turning up the answer.

The destruction of indigenous people more the fault of colonialism than capitalism. At least capitalists don't just go around slaughtering their own citizens like you're old buddy uncle Joe Stalin.
Also, go back to Tumblr.
Better yet, go back to Tumblr Village from that show that shall remain nameless.

To be fair, SHIELD was actually Hydra at that time, so that could explain a LOT.

Now that I think of it, the fact that they had TWO planes with nukes ready to go is pretty Hydra-ish.

Add every single death from famine, poverty, starvation, lack of medication, war waged for resources.
Stalin was killing Ukrainians, primo.

Secundo, since most of these 100 million was "actually" fault of Soviet imperialism, not communism as a system. I'm simply using the same metric that was used to make this "communist death count" - which is counting every death for which a communist state was responsible. By this logic, we need to count every death caused by a state that was capitalist as "capitalist death toll".

Seriously, trusting the government just gets you a nuked major city, because the government are nazis.

Both sides are simultaneously right and wrong, because they are sticking to absolutes in a situation where both extremes are the wrong answer.

The Avengers SHOULD be accountable, but the Accords is a terrible way to do it. It gives the nations of the world a political football so they can feel like they have some control of the situation, but at the cost of making the world dramatically less safe if they ever actually enforce anything.

When was the last time any of the Avengers fought a threat that they could just take a week to stop and think about first? A war between nations is the sort of thing the UN can talk about how to respond to, "Loki is going to open up a portal and flood the Earth with an alien armada 30 minutes from now" is not.

What the Avengers really need, unfortunately, is Shield. A organization that can be held accountable for their actions, but has the authority to dispatch them against immediate threats without miles of red tape in the way first.

But Winter Soldier already showed why any organization that that kind of power is a breeding ground for corruption and Hydra infestation. So its unlikely that they would ever be able to pull that off again.

I was team stark up until "the UN will boss you around"

there must be some kind of relation with different international councils but in term of getting intel/resources(or authority to do shit like evac the airport), the Avengers shouldn't be just a strike team

the accords are perfect for the Thunderbolts but the Avengers are good on their own

perfectly worded, bravo user

Still team Cap, I guess

But I liked how in the end Steve felt guilty enough to give up the shield. There was no good side

I stuck with Team Tony.

Cap was unreasonable, he was about to sign the accords when Tony (rightfully) argued the accords can be ammended and it was all just PR.

But then "Nuuuuuu why did you lock Wanda in her room?" made him bitch out.

It's unlawful imprisonment senpai . You don't fuck with the Constitution when Cap is around

Team Cap. If I was Steve, Id pull all that shit he did to save a friend. The only different thing is tell Tony earlier about his parents death

Locking a teenager in her room when a LOT of people in the world are pissed at her is not unlawful imprisonment. I mean christ at least wait for everyone to forget about the bombing.

Literally, in that example.

But yeah, the IDEA of something like the accords isn't a bad thing, it's just what we got was yet another example of staggering incompetancy from Thunderbolt Ross.

I would not be suprised at ALL if this is all one big lead up to putting Osborne in charge, renaming it to HAMMER and then doing an adaptation of Siege.

Well pretty much everyone on Team Tony was like "Yeah this is just a PR stunt and then we'll amend it to make it work right." which I think is very reasonable.

Its not like signing it was gonna make Team Tony just sit back and let whatever happen happen.

>Yep sure lovin that accountability there General Ross!
What did you expect from someone that got away scottfree from the Abomination debacle and actually got himself a nice promotion out of it?

>I would not be suprised at ALL if this is all one big lead up to putting Osborne in charge, renaming it to HAMMER and then doing an adaptation of Siege.
I'd be OK with that.

I'd logically want to go with Team Ironman, but if Cap called on me to help I'd go full Cap every day.

I am so tired of this Hydra bullshit

What of the true Civil War was over Cap's cooch?

I mean, with them getting Spiderman back, it practically sets everything up for that.
Mark my words, if the end of Ragnarok involves Asgard getting transplanted on earth then we KNOW it's happening.

Plus, you know MCU can adapt the House of M story if they ever get those rights back and merge the X-Men universe straight into the MCU.

Wanda's motivation? She want's to bring her brother back to life

user, I like how you think

To be fair, the House of M idea was something a friend had over a cheap kebab right after watching Days of Future Past at the cinema, but the Siege thing is mine.

They can literally do House of M at any fucking point as well, all we need is for Apocalypse to tank and for Disney to be there with a great big dumper truck full of money.

The only thing that might get in the way of resolving the MCU Civil War will be how Infinity War goes down.

As a side note though: If we ever find out that Zemo's attending psychologist is Karla Sofen then we KNOW that Thunderbolts is happening.

She's like 23 and wanted to leave. She was forcibly imprisoned with house arrest. Light or not, it was illegal as fuck.

Which, by the way, could have resolved if Tony explained it to her and asked if it was OK for her to lay low for a while, but no once again he went behind the other's backs because he thought she would see that his idea is the right one anyway.

The Avengers used to have SHIELD/Nick Fury keep them in check until that was proven to be corrupted by outside influences.

It seemed like all anybody was really mad about (for legitimate reasons) was The Avengers not staying around for relief/rebuilding efforts.

I get the destruction by Ultron sort of being The Avengers (Tony and Banner's) fault and the incident in Lagos, but why were they blamed for other casualties? Did people seriously think there'd be less casualties if The Avengers didn't show up to those other world-threatening crises?

>It seemed like all anybody was really mad about (for legitimate reasons) was The Avengers not staying around for relief/rebuilding efforts.
Funn thing is that the comics Avengers pretty much do that all the time, right?
At least after Janet went full PR with it. Maybe that's what the MCU Avengers need.

Beautifully said, user.

What if Tony used the Iron Legion from AoU strictly to help out with relief efforts while The Avengers are taking care of missions or are too tired from the worldending threat battles to pick up debris in the streets?

He clearly didn't after Ultron.

>The Avengers used to have SHIELD/Nick Fury keep them in check until that was proven to be corrupted by outside influences.

you mean for the duration of that movie they spent most of not working together?

the one where they stole a SHIELD plane and went off on their own at the end of?

You mean the Iron Legion from IM3 which expressly DID contain such suits designed for search, rescue and damage control?
Which he then blew up because he felt his adventure needed to end with a firework display?

Tony then goes on to remove the shrapnel from his chest, thus removing the one thing that reminds him of his own falliability and failings and proceeds to go completely crazy.

Think about it, ever since he did that we've had Ultron, hell Vision was a fucking fluke and there's no way Tony would know that would work and should not under any circumstances have basically tried to pull that bullshit unilaterally.
Then, after his unfortunate encounter with AI's he straight up boots up another AI to run his suit without a second thought.
Then he get's guilt tripped by a lady who if he HADN'T gone into Sokovia to stop Ultron wouldn't even be alive, and signs up to the Accords.

Without fucking reading them.

With Thunderbolt Ross at it's head, a man so incompetant he can't even catch the Hulk for almost a decade when it takes Fury less than a day to politiely bring him in.

This

Given that the UN is HQ in NYC, and the UN council was willing to nuke NYC, that means the people giving the orders to SHIELD were in Geneva or the like - or they were in NYC at the moment, watching the invasion from their windows and thinking all hope was lost.

One throwaway line from one of the UN councilors about how they're in the UN Building and watching the invasion live and think being nuked is a preferable alternative would make all the difference.

Wow. Tony really IS Hank Pym in the MCU.

>With Thunderbolt Ross at it's head, a man so incompetant he can't even catch the Hulk for almost a decade when it takes Fury less than a day to politiely bring him in.

im so fuckign mad about this

after failing to catch banner for years, ross illegally experiments on a soldier not even from the states, giving him access to sensitive information and untested substances

then when it blows up in his face, the guy goes nuts and becomes just as bad as the hulk if not worse, he sets the hulk free to fix the mess he made, causing even MORE fucking carnage, and lets the hulk get away at the end of it

THEN, a few years later, banner is proven to be a fucking hero when he helps annihilate a extraterrestrial army as the Hulk and gets the backing of SHIELD and the Avengers, making Ross, the man begging for funding to capture the bastard look like even more of a gigantic tool

and yet they made this inept fuckwit secretary of state?

I wasn't a fan of IM3's third act either.

But yes, essentially have Tony go back to the Iron Legion instead of endangering his team by signing over his team to an unnecessary and easily corruptible bureaucracy.

>and yet they made this inept fuckwit secretary of state?

I get the feeling that after all the Hydra agents got removed Capitol Hill must have been fucking empty. It basically down to him and that charming Senator Dell Rusk, and Dell said he didn't think it was right for him to take the limelight just yet.

You'll stretch the capitalist death toll to include deaths not done by capitalist countries, but not count outright murder by communist countries?