There's a lot of talk about the worlds within the DC Multiverse and how it is structured, but what about the forces that act within the worlds?
We know some things about the "Elemental" forces- >The Red is animal power, and powers Animal Man >The Green is plant power, and powers Swamp Thing, Ivy, and other elementals >The Grey is fungus power and opposes The Green >The Clear is water power and Aquaman draws on it >The Rot is a death force and powers Doctor Arcane and opposes the Red and the Green >The Metal is technology power, and exists in the future We also know that Brother Power is an elemental too, but what kind?
What about the Starheart and the Emotional Spectrum? Is there a connection between the two? Are Black Lanterns tied to the Rot in any way?
Then there's the powers within the Sphere of the Gods. Here's what we know: >Dream's power is tied to his world, and Doctor Destiny can use his power. The House of Mystery and House of Secrets are also part of the Dream >The Omega Effect and the Alpha Effect power Darkseid and Scott >The Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos power certain heroes and villains
The Speedforce seems like something different. It seems to be a function of the Multiverse rather than something inside it, like being a representation of the narrative moving forwards.
tl;dr how does DC work
Parker Perry
The Starheart is the result of the Guardians of the Universe gathering as much of the magic of the universe as they could and sealing it away. According to Wikipedia at least, in the New 52, they did this by sending it to Earth 2, which weakened the laws of physics.
Parker Evans
Tell me more
Aaron Fisher
>WORLDS WITHIN WORLDS??!??
Andrew Murphy
Here's an old related hypercrisis idea.
Colton Gray
From the other thread. A deck of cards has 52 playable cards and 3 Jokers.
Isaac Walker
So is the Starheart the source of all magic, or just a large conglomeration of it?
I'm also curious as to whether the Firestorm Matrix is something that artificially ties him to an elemental force, because I have a theory that the Firestorm Matrix is some kind of artificially generated Speed Force. We've seen people pulled into and lost inside the matrix before, and it seems to have the same sort of physics properties that we've seen from the Speed Force. The difference is while the Speed Force is forwards motion, the Firestorm powers are "contained," with the expression of those powers being "bursts" of power rather than continuous effects.
That would also explain characters like Killer Frost, Captain Cold, and Mister Freeze as being some form of counter-Speedster; just as Speedsters are powered by forward narrative motion, these characters try and stop the heroes moving through their stories.
Kayden Murphy
Why is the abrahamic god shilled so hard in the DC multiverse, and why hasnt someone killed the fanatatical facsist bastard yet?
Jackson Jenkins
All those elements are part of the Elemental Life. The Red/Green/etc are the physicals ways the elemental force of life manifests in DC and the Lantern rings are the mental/spiritual side of how life manifests in DC. It's a body and soul dichotomy.
Easton Hill
Beast Boy is part of the Red. Cyborg is a representative of The Metal.
When the Multiverse was formed a statue of Superman was formed too. Superman, Ultraman, and other Supermen are powered by this, which represents the idea of a superhero. The entire Multiverse is the eggshell that exists around the Superhero.
Ryder Rogers
H Y P E R Y P E R
Owen White
I think the abrahamic god packed up and left reality. Almost destroyed it but Lucifer managed to save the day with help. Think he's gone now.
Hudson Price
I think he's more of a Grand Clockmaker type in DC. I'm not sure, but Spectre should answer your question.
Aaron Taylor
>is the Marvel universe even trying at this point?
Marvel fans are rarely invested in the meta in my experience.
Matthew Bennett
...
Camden Sanders
fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Kevin Gomez
>DC is a deck of cards >the same things just shuffled around to make a new set up
Nathan Hall
>52 >Mr. Mind creates the multiverse by changing events in time >Each universe was just dealt a different hand
Brayden Davis
>So is the Starheart the source of all magic, or just a large conglomeration of it?
I think the latter. It's kinda comparable to the Emerald Eye of Ekron, which IIRC was the Guardian's inspiration for the Green Lantern rings
Logan Nguyen
he is literally dead in lucifer at the moment
Andrew Wright
Ok time to dissect the fuck out of this like most hypercrisis ideas. Who're the 4 kings, Queens, Jacks and Aces of DC?
Landon Parker
Superman Wonder Woman Batman and...Flash? (had a hard time picking that one). In that order.
Cameron Wilson
then
Monitors, Endless, Guardians of the Universe...Superboy Prime? Fourth is always hardest to pick, but prime fits in with regards to his impact on the multiverse.
Theres still two more suits to fill.
Lincoln Gomez
They are all four kings? Superman King of Diamonds Wonder Woman King of Hearts Batman King of Clubs Flash King of Spades?
Bentley Martin
Parallax and Darkseid.
Cameron Gonzalez
Parallax, Darkseid, Anti Monitor and the Joker?
Landon James
I see. Then I'm sort of curious what the root source of Magic in DC is.
Jordan Walker
Well it always starts with the lightning
Adam Reyes
It's probably mentioned in Books of Magic.
James Hall
>the Joker There's 3 Jokers. Joker is the jokers of the deck. Come on.
Cooper Barnes
You are getting your stuff mixed up. The Clear isn't part of the whole Red/Green/Black. Also you left off two other Parliaments the Parliament of Stories and the Divided. Have you read Swamp Thing user? And the Avatars aren't tied to the sources of magic. They are tied to life. They come after life is created to represent them. Example in DC once AI and robots stared the Metal came later, manifested as an Avatar representing technological life.
Kayden Ross
by-product of the creation of...Creation.
Magic is the spark of life, because everyone and everything in the multiverse can use and have some control over it.
I'd imagine that magic is the exact same power that the New Gods leech off. They're closer to the 'source' of it, so to them its not as mysterious and unknown.
The magic in the universes is just a filtered down version of gods 'source power'.
Yeah you're right. I'm an idiot. Who fits the spot as the fourth 'biggest bad'? mandrakk? empty hand?
Brandon Gomez
>Yeah you're right. I'm an idiot. Who fits the spot as the fourth 'biggest bad'? mandrakk? empty hand? Well if The Hand of Creation is the one dealing, what would the Empty Hand be doing? Drawing from the deck? Shuffling?
Adrian Robinson
So its kind of insane that Kyle Rayner went beyond the source wall huh?
Nathaniel Gomez
It holds the deck and is left empty after the cards have been dealt.
Adrian Morris
eh more than a few others have done it.
Fucking hell, Doc Doom would have made it in the crossover if the JLA didn't stop him.
Wyatt Phillips
When the game is over the cards go back to the empty hand to be shuffled and passed around again
Angel Murphy
fuuuck time deck of cards thing actually went somewhere
Ian Green
It's not Red, Green or Black but it's one of the elements
Kayden Wood
I don't get it
Ian Lopez
Sure, but the guy is mixing his stuff up. Just setting him straight.
Isaac Parker
How? It's one of the elements. He listed the named elements. I'm not sure what you're getting at?
Joseph Rodriguez
Well the cards would have to represent the Multiverse, so wouldn't it make more sense to have something like
>Diamonds Superman as the King Wonder Woman as the Queen Batman as the Jack of Flash as the Ace Other heroes - 1-10
E2 heroes as Hearts
>Clubs Ultraman as the King of Clubs Superwoman as the Queen of Clubs Owlman as the Jack of Clubs
Etc.
William Lee
He listed it being with the Red/Green from Animal Man and Swamp Thing. He's mixing things together. Do you not see that image he posted? None of the things in your pic are in it. He took the clear and put it in with red/green.
Blake Morris
Sounds like Rebirth is a hypercrisis gold mine
Nathaniel Martinez
That would lead to only 4 universes.
Cameron Jones
The Green is the Plant Element.
Logan Walker
Plants are a form of life not an element. I have no idea what you are tying to get at. The Green is a kingdom which came to being when a new form of life, plants, came into being. There are seven realms, one for animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, digital, rot and stories. They aren't elements like water, fire wind.
Isaac Garcia
4 Suits >Justice League/Heroic Archtypes >Legion of Doom/Villain Archtypes >New Gods - A Multiversal Constant >Limbo?
Aiden King
Look at the Map of the Multiverse. Notice the arcs traveling through the worlds. Note that each individual arc obeys the Golden Ratio. Make all the arcs bolder, more definite. You get the flower in the image.
Throughout Multiversity, there was mention of "The Rose That Blooms In Winter". In particular, Batman of Earth 17 was searching for it, and was handed the Multiversity Guidebook with the Map by Dick Grayson of Earth 42.
Lincoln Sanders
They are literally called elementals
Henry Morgan
You're mixing up Parliaments. The Green that Swamp Thing belongs to is different from the Green that New 52 Alan Scott belongs to, and the rest of the Avatars were written during one of the worst stories since Flashpoint happened.
Leo Campbell
Are you going by a wiki you read or an actual comic you read? Cause you sound like you've gotten confused. It truly was terrible and only highlighted by how one of the best stories since nu52 began approached the same subject matter.
Ian Flores
you're not shittalking animal man are you?
Grayson Roberts
>swamp thing >not an elemental
Justin Perez
So seems that Doctor Manhatan created the DC Universe now.
Is his the blue hand at the beggining of creation now?
Parker Fisher
He didn't create the DC universe. He created the post-Flashpoint universe.
Carter Evans
Supposedly he just made the nu52 multiverse by taking the 52 post crisis multiverse and removing 10 years from it with reality tampering. He's on a Mr. Mind level scale of fuckery not quite the Hand of Creation level.
John Gonzalez
how can one person just not get something this hard?
Kayden Bailey
I'm shit talking Earth 2: World's End, the source of It also tried incorporating the Red and Green and Grey, but the author was basing it off of MtG more than anything and couldn't decide if Solomon Grundy belonged to the Grey or Black.
Elijah Hall
Side Kicks? King being the side king that takes the mantle (Dick grayson, Wally West) Queen being the romantic interest (Lois Lane, Iris West) Jack being the young protege Ace being their pillar
Isaac Lee
Holy shit
Nathaniel Martinez
Oh boy, are you new to the Hypercrisis?
James Hernandez
Supporting Cast maybe? King - Sidekicks Queen - Love Interests Jack - The Parental figure Ace - The Origin Story?
Luis Hernandez
There is also the Parliament of Flame/Waves/Vapors which represent the Four Element. The Divide/Gray/Green/Red/Metal represent the forms life takes, while the Rot is their antithesis.
OP clearly has read wikipedia and comicvine entries and not the actual comics.
William Green
I was going to call you new but really it took us like a year from when the map was released to figure it out too
Eli Walker
>putting Worlds End and Earth2 at a higher standard than Soules Swamp Thing Get out and never come back.
Juan Miller
I'm not new to the concept, but I honestly kinda brushed it off as something of a meme
Zachary Baker
>something of a meme It's all memes, friend.
You should read Flex Mentallo or something, straight up memes.
Matthew Cooper
Ace is a tricky one.
Nathaniel Murphy
>something of a meme Well, you're not entirely incorrect. But it's less Big Guy 4U and more Grand Unified Theory of DC comics and the study of Memetics.
Jaxon Hughes
Origin story is a supporting cast?
Jace James
Maybe Ace should be the Average People of the DCU, the ones the heroes save
Mason Robinson
What about authority figures to the heroes? Like Commissioner Gordon, or Dan Turpin.
Andrew Taylor
Kings are the legacy characters that reach the highest like Kid Flash who became Flash or Robin that became Batman or his own hero. They reach the top. Queen is the love interest. The partner of the hero/ruler like Lois Lane or Steve Trevor. The Jack is the eternal young side kick or the Teen Titans. The Ace is at the same time the highest and lowest card value. They are the authority figures that the hero looks up to while they are still beneath them in power. Alfred, Perry White are both considered by Batman and Superman higher than them but obviously not as powerful as them.
I'd say this suit is the hearts. Diamonds being the suit of heroes. Both are the red cards in the deck.
Joseph Fisher
So the deck looks like
>Heroes King - Superman Queen - Wonder Woman Jack - Batman Ace - Flash
>Villains King - Luthor or Zod Queen - Aries Jack - Dr. Hurt Ace - Reverse Flash
>New Gods King - Darkseid Queen - High Father Jack - Orion Ace - Mr. Miracle
>Supporting King - Sidekicks Queen - Love Interest Jack - Parental Figure Ace - Authority Figure
>Suit 1 - Pre-Crisis >Suit 2 - Post-Crisis >Suit 3 - New 52 >Suit 4 - Rebirth I think of the eras like different games that got reshuffled and dealt by the hands. Rounds as opposed to suits.
Jeremiah Scott
Would genuinely love for a screen cap of each the "elements" such as the grey and rot, for a long while I believed they were the same, both talking about the Parliament of decay. I'd also like to see reference to the clear and the metal, just so I don't have any further doubts pls user.
Ryan Barnes
...
Jason Phillips
...
Hunter Turner
...
Zachary Bell
Screencaps? You're asking for several comics worth of material. Go read Soule's nu52 Swamp Thing run. It'll have mostly everything. The clear and other stuff mentioned was part of nu52 Earth 2 and Worlds End which I guess you can read but are terrible and best ignored.
Hudson Rivera
Please, please do not read World's End. It is literally a version of the Anti-life equation
Elijah Bell
I don't agree with this.
Owen Cox
The firestorm matrix is not the speed force. It's the big bang localized and contained. They are only similar as to the big bang is the beginning and end, and the speed force is the middle. The motion.
Oliver Young
Swamp Thing Future's End covers the very basics for Divided/Rot/Metal/Grey/Green. The elemental parliaments are covered in the post-Crisis Mark Millar role of Swamp Thing
Connor Flores
Instead of just saying it with a post that achieves less than nothing, how about you explain why you think so.
Andrew Baker
>We will never find out what happened to Pre-Flashpoint Firestorm and the Anti-Monitor
Aaron Scott
>Diamonds Heroes King-Superman Queen-Wonder Woman Jack-Batman Ace-Flash Or maybe we could try going with archetypes of heroes? >Hearts Supporting Cast King-Legacy/Passed Mantle Queen- Love Interest Jack- Teen Titans Ace- Authority Figure Looked up to >Clubs Villains King-Luthor or Zod Queen-Aries Jack-Dr Hurt Ace- Reverse Flash Or maybe archetypes? >Spades New Gods King-Darkseid Queen- High Father Jack-Orion Ace-Mr Miracle
And 3 Jokers
First time dealt: Pre-Crisis Second time dealt: Post-Crisis etc.
The dealer's hand passing out the cards is the Hand of Creation. The dealer's hand holding the deck is left empty after they're dealt is the Empty Hand. After the cards are dealt the hand picks up the cards to reshuffle the cards around and play another world with the same sets and characters just rearranged.
I like this idea. Still could use some tweeks.
Daniel Ortiz
He's cool.
Isaiah Wood
Hero Archtypes King - The Superman Queen - The Warrior? The Goddess? Jack - The Dark Knight/Tragic Hero/Planner? Ace - The Everyman?
Villain Archtype King - Pride of Man Queen - Bloodlust Warrior? Jack - The Schemer? Ace - The jealous
Asher Evans
Dude I thought I had a basic grasp, and I trust u of all peep here on this thread, can u give me a list of the Parliaments and there Title, (like green, parliament of the trees), I know someone keeps saying some wiki BS, which is confusing the fuck outa me. Would be greatly appreciated
Oliver Hughes
Geoff Johns stopped giving a fuck probably around the time they told him to reboot the DCU with FP and to write JL. Before then he was putting his selected people onto books like Firestorm (Clevinger) and Hawkman (Robinson) .
Landon Cox
Alright, I'll give a basic rundown but I still say you should go read nu52 Swamp Thing. It's only about 40 issues. >The Green Is for plant life. Has the Parliament of Trees. The Parliament is made of former Avatars. Swamp Thing is the current Avatar. >The Red Is for animal life. Has the Parliament of Limbs. The Parliament is made of former Avatars as well. All the Parliaments are made of former Avatars basically. Animal Man's daughter was an Avatar and he was a temp one too. The situation got a bit messy with some problems. >The Black Is decay and dying and rotting. Also called The Rot. Has the Parliament of Decay, again made of former Avatars. Arcane is an Avatar at points and his daughter too. >The Grey Is for fungal life. The first Grey Avatar fucked off and abandoned his work for who knows how long so a Parliament of former Avatars never formed. The Avatar of the Grey dies in the run so maybe later. >The Metal Is for digital life. Also called The Rithm. This is the newest one, maybe. We see it come to existence in the run and them select their first Avatar. Kind of has a Parliament but different, more like some machine AIs collective that run things. >The Divided Is for bacteria. We see it only once in a now defunct future setting. We don't know anything else really. >Parliament of Stories We only briefly see this in the final issue. Stories, art and imagination is taking a life of its own so this was made. We know almost nothing of it.
Each of these are within one universe and not across the multiverse. So Earth 2 has its own take and is seen in Worlds End. It was shit from a shit event by someone who didn't know what they were doing so it isn't important cause like I said, they don't exist across other universes so the Earth 2 shitty ones are only relevant to Earth 2.
Nathaniel Kelly
Then who are the Parliament of Waves, Flames, and Vapors mentioned earlier?
Joseph Parker
Sry, so my thoughts are, don't the lanterns power directly affect the universe, implying a much closer connection to the source. Whereas, for the Parliaments they may be universal but only apply where they can be found. If swamp thing found himself on a planet in the middle of dead space he'd be shit outa luck. If a lantern were in the same predicament he'd be better off especially with a ring charge because his powers are stretched much beyond the other. So yeah, they are similar in the way that they represent an aspect of creation, not the same however, and no where near related. The lanterns would be closer to the presence and the new gods, whereas I think the Parliaments would be akin-ish to the endless in being that they are physics of life where they can be. So that's my thinking, I just don't personally agree that they come hand in hand, but don't get me wrong I'm not saying the other idea is wrong, I'm just saying what I think.
Noah Perry
they represent elemental components of nature. those others represent the kingdoms of life (and death with the rot)
Samuel Clark
Thank u based user, I've been wanting to read swamp thing despite my comic store clerk telling me all new 52 is garbage without him even reading any of it. I thoroughly enjoyed lamires animal man interpretation and would love to give swamp thing a go if it's following more of the same physics and mythos.
Angel Collins
Different universes or different continuities. Remember Parliaments of other dimensions don't go out of their dimensions. Those listed are the main earth in current continuity.
Owen Powell
You read his Animal Man without Swamp Thing? They very closely tie into each other, especially in Rotworld.