Because the other threads have already hit auto-sage or are about to go there.
SPOILER TAGGED IN THE OP, BUT Y'ALL ALREADY KNOW WHAT'S UP PROBABLY.
So the major question of the day seems to be to what extent the influence of Watchmen and Dr. Manhattan have had on the wider DC Universe. Has he been able to single-handedly manipulate events, or is he bound by other forces like the Empty Hand? Or possibly an extension of such given that Watchmen is often credited with driving superhero comics in a much darker, grimmer direction in its wake.
There's also the question of how this relates to Earth-4, specifically with Pax Americana specifically riffing on many of the same themes and styles of Watchmen, despite Earth-4 Pre-Flashpoint appearing to be closer to its original Charlton comics counterpart.
Given that we are talking about a Johns work, I wouldn't consider anything we'd find in Rebirth to be drastically changing our understanding of the structure of the DCU Multiverse and cosmology, and if anything, with the addition of previously-blocked legacies and continuity and history, this might represent another continuation of what we saw at the conclusion of Multiversity, with the DCU truly becoming an Omniverse rather than being bound to ONLY 52 Earths.
Commence wild conspiracy theories, ladies and gentlemen.
John Smith
Hypertime is a river
Ethan Cook
Malleable reality, Jon is Changing it via his powers and Wally via inserting himself back in.
The 3 jokers proves it's glitchy and the 10 years erased is same as cutting and pasting into a bin.
Brandon Lopez
>There's also the question of how this relates to Earth-4, specifically with Pax Americana specifically riffing on many of the same themes and styles of Watchmen, despite Earth-4 Pre-Flashpoint appearing to be closer to its original Charlton comics counterpart.
I wouldn't expect it to connect. The same way that ever since the multiverse came back, the main DC Earth can have a Justice Society and Earth-2 can have a Justice Society, and they don't necessarily have anything to do with each other except being alternate reality versions of each other.
Blake Rodriguez
I'll just repost what I said on the previous thread:
For anyone who cares about Hypercrisis theories: I think Manhattan may be a manifestation or avatar of the empty hand in this incarnation.
>All the rebirth's promos were filled with empty Hand imagery >Both are responsible for introducing darkness and cynism in comics >Both have been described as metaphorical and extratetual >The empty Hand was revealed to have caused the new 52 in the Multiversity Guidebook >Both are familiar with the idea of stories never actually ending >Both are related to the the "hand of creation wasn't actually a hand of creation" plot twist >Neither can actually be defeated (according to Johns, at least) and can only be countered via optimism and hope.
In Watchmen Manhattan may have been powerful, but he was limited (Couldn't stop a full nuclear assault, could "only see the strings"). Now he's being played as the greatest threat dc has ever faced (another title he shares with the empty Hand) and he IS manipulating strings. It was most likely unintentional (in several instances the hypercrisis is), but it seems like he has been elevated to carry on the role of the empty Hand within the dcu.
Benjamin Wood
>>Both are related to the the "hand of creation wasn't actually a hand of creation" plot twist
Didn't Geoff already establish in Nu52 GL that the hand actually belonged to either Krona or Volthoom, I forget which?
Levi Wilson
>The 3 jokers proves it's glitchy
Nah, I've always liked the idea of the Joker being a memetic virus, but sure we could go with the "Glitch in the Matrix" idea too.
I've stated this in other threads, but the main thing that I've realized recently is that the Multiverse/timeline of the DCU has a tendency to recreate different parts when they go missing.
>Infinite Crisis and 52 re-create the Multiverse, with many of those Earths taking on aspects of pre-Crisis worlds wholecloth rather than removing those aspects that have already integrated into Earth-0 (such as the JSA or the Marvel family)
>There always is a Superman, and some form of the Justice League on many of the Earths as well
>Convergence featured characters and settings removed from Timelines, but with those same characters still present elsewhere, only altered by different events
And now we have multiple individuals with the title and role of "Joker", while Earth-4 has taken on more aspects of Watchmen as it's developed in the New 52.
Nature abhors a vacuum, and it seems that the DCU has a set structure that it reverts to under stress.
Jonathan Martinez
Well and also remember, Dr. Manhattan was depressed because he felt unable to change anything about the timeline or the eventual fate of the world or his own self despite his ability to see laterally through time.
The same helplessness might be either a symptom of, or a driving force behind, the Empty Hand itself.
Jordan Cooper
>Given that we are talking about a Johns work, I wouldn't consider anything we'd find in Rebirth to be drastically changing our understanding of the structure of the DCU Multiverse Someone clearly doesn't read DC. 52 Infinite Crisis Flashpoint and nu52 All were Johns works and changed things drastically OP. Try not to be so stupid when bandwagoning hypercrisis threads next time.
Jack Bell
I don't believe so
Adrian Ortiz
It couldn't have been Krona because he was staring at it. And I doubt it was Volthoom, seems out of his scale.
Nicholas Adams
Flashpoint changed the timeline and history of individual Earths, but the Multiverse as a whole was largely unaffected.
>52
Morrison was a writer on that too, remember?
>Infinite Crisis
Okay, I'll give you that. My point was that usually Johns' ideas line up pretty squarely with what Morrison lays down already so we should be looking at this as a continuous heuristic fitting within our current understanding of the Multiverse, rather than "OH NO EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG"
Daniel Campbell
Oh so neither 52 nor Infinite Crisis nor Flashpoint led to everything changing in DC? Bandwagoner confirmed.
Michael Sanders
>EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG
Johns is pretty (in)famous for his constant retcons. He has been teasing for a while that what you just said would be one of the core ideas of rebirth.
Leo Reed
>Johns is pretty (in)famous for his constant retcons
There's a difference between a retcon and something that completely restructures the entire DCU.
Think of it as the difference between using different browsers on your computer, vs. completely changing operating systems. One is a different program that's still designed to work within a specific programming language, the other is completely changing that language entirely.
Cooper Carter
>Morrison was a writer on that too, remember? Yeah with Johns. Stop sucking Morrison cock and claiming everything is him. Look at Multiversity. It was a disappointment in every way and lived up to none of the expectations.
Evan Harris
>Think of it as the difference between using different browsers on your computer, vs. completely changing operating systems. One is a different program that's still designed to work within a specific programming language, the other is completely changing that language entirely. Ah but user you forget apples are all basically the same and whether you get red or off red apples the nutritional value is almost all the same. Looks like you're wrong.
Ryan Watson
>Look at Multiversity. It was a disappointment in every way and lived up to none of the expectations.
You serious? A couple of the issues weren't as great as advertised (SOS, Mastermen), but overall I loved the miniseries.
Adam Butler
Dammit, I know I've seen it. Now I'm gonna have to reread through 20 fucking issues trying to find it and...oh shit, the Krona arc was the last one BEFORE Flashpoint, wasn't it?
Austin Lee
Well among the cosmic scales retcons and changes that Johns is responsible of there is:
>Bug Parallax >Life and the life entity actually originated on earth >Prime punching reality >the restoration of the 52 multiverse and Mr Mind's rampage (granted this was a colaboration) >The multiverse resets cyclically and the recent crisis are just an acceleration of the process >The anti Monitor has actually destroyed the multiverse more than once >The life equation and anti Life equation are forces of physical creation >The anti Life equation is the power source of the anti Monitor
Alexander Ramirez
>Multiversity lived up to expectations Hey newfag I know when you jumped into your first comic Multiversity to hang with the cool kids it seemed fun. For the people that've been here a while it met none of the expectations:
>no cosmic six shooter >no page with every DC character ever >no series spun off from the worlds >didn't gain superpowers reading it >didn't open a portal from our world to DC >didn't cause an apocalypse >NO COSMIC SIX SHOOTER
Grayson Ramirez
It did. The arc was Wrath of the First Lantern. In it it hints that Volthoom was the hand that they saw.
Austin Harris
Didio himself stated they didn't really think of the multiverse during Rebirth discussions(in that Newsarama interview this week) so I really think all these theories are moot till Morrison comes back or someone who actually cares like..idk, Dan Abnett maybe?
Jaxon Williams
>The final spread of Multiversity #2 was close enough. You know portaying every character ever is straight up impossible. >Multiversity Too will be coming soon. There will probably be updates at sdcc >You didn't read Ultra Comics? >The comics ARE the portals. You're just limited by the memetic barrier >The memetic barrier doesn't allow us to experience the apocalypse physically but right now we are being drained by the oblivion machine. That's close enough.
Justin Hall
Yeah, Krona fucking stuff up was the last pre Flashpoint arc
Gavin Powell
The solicits explain that there would be "Multiversal Mayhem". Also the new 52 was a multiverse wide change. Didio probably meant that there wouldn't be a multiverse series.
Aaron Robinson
>portaying every character ever is straight up impossible. >he didn't expect the impossible from Multiversity Just go. You don't belong here. Might I suggest reddit where they praise stupid people like you?
Juan Smith
>expecting anything Morrison writes to be picked up by other writers
You should know better by this point, self-proclaimed oldfag.
On its own merits, Multiversity was pretty fucking great.
Henry Jenkins
Did Manhattan go around changing the multiverse too? Or was it a group thing like: Barry is messing with time At the opportunity Pandora combines some universes Manhattan then swoops in and steals time
Elijah Ross
You do know that Sup Forums, for better or for worse, is all over Multiversity's cock right? I know you're trying to fit in, but your constant le reddit newfag xD isn't helping.
Kayden Gutierrez
That was Berganza's promise,IIRC. Not Morrison's. Also the page where the orrery is seen from the outside shows every character ever. Fag.
Michael Clark
Given that apparently Pandora is dead, I'm thinking that he was using her to use Barry to fuck with the timeline.
Chase Jones
>le reddit newfag xD You are literally the only one that posted that.
Jeremiah Butler
>first hypercrisis thread I make and it's already being taken up by shitposting
Asher Rogers
Oh no Sup Forums! The Gentry have kidnapped you! But you can escape. Post number determines the Earth you go to but careful if you don't get a listed Earth number Dr Manhattan will make you suck his blue dick.
Adam Lee
>Nah, I've always liked the idea of the Joker being a memetic virus, but sure we could go with the "Glitch in the Matrix" idea too. Joker can be a memetic virus and a glitch in the system at the same time.
Landon Russell
I think we should revisit the idea of where Captain Atom went when he left in Pax. Like is it possible the Empty Hand made him part of the oblivion machine and thus caused him to become the Dr Manhattan that did the Rebirth stuff?
Just spitballing here of course.
Alexander Fisher
>think we should revisit the idea of where Captain Atom went when he left in Pax
That's when he gets recruited for the mission in Superman Beyond 3D.
Owen Ortiz
ROLLING
Lucas Wilson
That's what we thought at the time but is there anything conclusive proving that?
Adrian Walker
>glitch in the system That's more a Marvel thing. Check out the machine theory. DC is an organism and Marvel the machine.
Ian Martin
Nope, but it makes as much sense as anything else so why the fuck not.
Liam Long
Yes, reading the comics proves that.
Landon Rodriguez
So I guess the equivalent would be DNA structure, or carbon-based life in general.
Like in genetics you have highly conserved genes that generally do things that direct body planning for organisms (homeobox genes), or govern basic metabolic functions in cells.
For example, all bilaterally-symmetrical animals have the same sets of genes that pattern that symmetry as they are descended from the same originator of it. They can have various additions to that body plan (repeated or deleted segments, distinct heads or no, different organs, eyes, etc) but the same basic pattern is being built on.
Benjamin Edwards
This is the first hypercrisis thread I've been in
Dominic Hall
dickpics or gtfo newfag
Hunter Peterson
Here's to catch you up.
Adrian Johnson
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Kevin Stewart
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Michael Richardson
I'll drop some shit too.
Asher Butler
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Josiah Cruz
It is unclear if he went to Final Crisis or the House of Heroes. Him not showing up in issue 2 suggests FC, but doesn't prove it.
Lincoln Reed
I read Doom Patrol, Batman/Infinite Crisis, and Animal Man. I'd like in on this, is there a reading list?
Jonathan Reed
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Kevin Martin
Bit old though
Logan Clark
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Jacob Lopez
These timelines need to be edited. I'll drop two that spawned from hypercrisis threads.
Tyler Ramirez
This was a bad reading list to begin with (too focused on events), and looking at it now makes it worse.
Where's sandman, where's Planetary
Ian Edwards
The other better made but slightly different one.
Jacob Cooper
Oh forgot there was a third timeline image.
Owen Miller
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Ian Martin
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Asher Davis
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Michael Long
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Isaac Murphy
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Ryder Campbell
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Daniel Jones
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Jaxon Powell
Where's the other guy that was dropping stuff?
Aaron Howard
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Gabriel Diaz
Going to bed, thanks for carrying on.
Kayden Wilson
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Logan Morris
Cause I just realized I don't have like half the images that usually go with explaining hypercrisis. Like none of the Batman ones or Joker ones.
Carson Bailey
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Robert Lopez
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Leo Anderson
Also note, this is an animation that shows how Earth and Venus' orbits converge on each other. Notice the similarities?
Angel White
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Lucas Garcia
Oh shit I just read up on that and it gets better.
>Venus orbits the sun 13 times for every 5 times the Earth does >guess what 13 minus 5 equals
Jace Jackson
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Ryder Reyes
Some user tried to start a thread where he pointed out that the map of the multiverse actually looks like a hydrogen atom. I'm curious about what rebirth is bringing to the table for future threads.
Leo Peterson
Oops, mis-read the page. it's actually
>8 Earth orbits per 13 venus orbits >5 "apogees" or moments when they are at their closest distance during that period
Fuck me, that fits up even better
Easton Hill
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Lucas Anderson
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Kevin Perry
Not quite the same, the Multiversity map makes a rose with only four points, this one has five.
Josiah Clark
From an earlier thread. Someone pointed out a deck of cards has 52 playable cards a multiple Jokers. And then this thing sprung up.
>Diamonds Heroes King-The Superman Queen-Magic Hero Jack-Skilled/Jack of all Trades Ace-The Everyman
>Hearts Supporting Cast King-Legacy/Passed Mantle Queen- Love Interest Jack- Young Protegie/Teen Titans Ace- Authority Figure Looked up to
>Spades New Gods King-Darkseid Queen- High Father Jack-Orion Ace-Mr Miracle
And 3 Jokers/Wildcards
First time dealt: Pre-Crisis Second time dealt: Post-Crisis etc.
The dealer's hand passing out the cards is the Hand of Creation. The dealer's hand holding the deck is left empty after they're dealt is the Empty Hand. After the cards are dealt the hand picks up the cards to reshuffle the cards around and play another world with the same sets and characters just rearranged.
Ethan Bailey
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Daniel Bennett
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Alexander Brown
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Ian Anderson
Or you could just save time and use the equivalent ideas from a Tarot deck, because our current suits are based off of the minor arcana from it.
Christopher Cox
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Hudson Hughes
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Christopher Williams
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Matthew Phillips
Do both.
Sebastian Gray
also worth mentioning that the fact Manhattan had to steal time and 'love' from the DCU rather than just pulling everything out of his ass paints him as more of a demiurge than a legitimate creator
Jackson Scott
>and 'love' from the DCU
Wait was this explicit? Because from the preview, it seems to me more like the loss of the different relationships that are coming back was due to lost memories and history.
Elijah Campbell
well in an organic system, the most obvious example of a 'glitch' are cancer and HIV/AIDS, the former being out of control cell fission and the latter being an out of control immune system
Evan Cook
I got some of the joker ones but either I'm missing one or I fucked up the numbering
Levi Bennett
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Jose Peterson
I guess this holds up if you just change "by Pandora" to Dr. Manhattan. Which would mean if Rebirth is going to be about affecting those changes he made to create the 7th incarnation of the DC cosmology we are about to enter the 9th incarnation of the DC cosmology.
William Stewart
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Leo Powell
>HIV/AIDS, the former being out of control cell fission and the latter being an out of control immune system AIDS is the opposite of that. It is a dead inactive immune system. What you described is called autoimmune disease like lupis.