Hypercrisis Thread: Rebirth Edition

Because the other threads have already hit auto-sage or are about to go there.

SPOILER TAGGED IN THE OP, BUT Y'ALL ALREADY KNOW WHAT'S UP PROBABLY.

So the major question of the day seems to be to what extent the influence of Watchmen and Dr. Manhattan have had on the wider DC Universe. Has he been able to single-handedly manipulate events, or is he bound by other forces like the Empty Hand? Or possibly an extension of such given that Watchmen is often credited with driving superhero comics in a much darker, grimmer direction in its wake.

There's also the question of how this relates to Earth-4, specifically with Pax Americana specifically riffing on many of the same themes and styles of Watchmen, despite Earth-4 Pre-Flashpoint appearing to be closer to its original Charlton comics counterpart.

Given that we are talking about a Johns work, I wouldn't consider anything we'd find in Rebirth to be drastically changing our understanding of the structure of the DCU Multiverse and cosmology, and if anything, with the addition of previously-blocked legacies and continuity and history, this might represent another continuation of what we saw at the conclusion of Multiversity, with the DCU truly becoming an Omniverse rather than being bound to ONLY 52 Earths.

Commence wild conspiracy theories, ladies and gentlemen.

Hypertime is a river

Malleable reality, Jon is Changing it via his powers and Wally via inserting himself back in.

The 3 jokers proves it's glitchy and the 10 years erased is same as cutting and pasting into a bin.

>There's also the question of how this relates to Earth-4, specifically with Pax Americana specifically riffing on many of the same themes and styles of Watchmen, despite Earth-4 Pre-Flashpoint appearing to be closer to its original Charlton comics counterpart.

I wouldn't expect it to connect. The same way that ever since the multiverse came back, the main DC Earth can have a Justice Society and Earth-2 can have a Justice Society, and they don't necessarily have anything to do with each other except being alternate reality versions of each other.

I'll just repost what I said on the previous thread:

For anyone who cares about Hypercrisis theories: I think Manhattan may be a manifestation or avatar of the empty hand in this incarnation.

>All the rebirth's promos were filled with empty Hand imagery
>Both are responsible for introducing darkness and cynism in comics
>Both have been described as metaphorical and extratetual
>The empty Hand was revealed to have caused the new 52 in the Multiversity Guidebook
>Both are familiar with the idea of stories never actually ending
>Both are related to the the "hand of creation wasn't actually a hand of creation" plot twist
>Neither can actually be defeated (according to Johns, at least) and can only be countered via optimism and hope.

In Watchmen Manhattan may have been powerful, but he was limited (Couldn't stop a full nuclear assault, could "only see the strings"). Now he's being played as the greatest threat dc has ever faced (another title he shares with the empty Hand) and he IS manipulating strings. It was most likely unintentional (in several instances the hypercrisis is), but it seems like he has been elevated to carry on the role of the empty Hand within the dcu.

>>Both are related to the the "hand of creation wasn't actually a hand of creation" plot twist

Didn't Geoff already establish in Nu52 GL that the hand actually belonged to either Krona or Volthoom, I forget which?

>The 3 jokers proves it's glitchy

Nah, I've always liked the idea of the Joker being a memetic virus, but sure we could go with the "Glitch in the Matrix" idea too.

I've stated this in other threads, but the main thing that I've realized recently is that the Multiverse/timeline of the DCU has a tendency to recreate different parts when they go missing.

>Infinite Crisis and 52 re-create the Multiverse, with many of those Earths taking on aspects of pre-Crisis worlds wholecloth rather than removing those aspects that have already integrated into Earth-0 (such as the JSA or the Marvel family)

>There always is a Superman, and some form of the Justice League on many of the Earths as well

>Convergence featured characters and settings removed from Timelines, but with those same characters still present elsewhere, only altered by different events

And now we have multiple individuals with the title and role of "Joker", while Earth-4 has taken on more aspects of Watchmen as it's developed in the New 52.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and it seems that the DCU has a set structure that it reverts to under stress.

Well and also remember, Dr. Manhattan was depressed because he felt unable to change anything about the timeline or the eventual fate of the world or his own self despite his ability to see laterally through time.

The same helplessness might be either a symptom of, or a driving force behind, the Empty Hand itself.

>Given that we are talking about a Johns work, I wouldn't consider anything we'd find in Rebirth to be drastically changing our understanding of the structure of the DCU Multiverse
Someone clearly doesn't read DC.
52
Infinite Crisis
Flashpoint and nu52
All were Johns works and changed things drastically OP. Try not to be so stupid when bandwagoning hypercrisis threads next time.

I don't believe so

It couldn't have been Krona because he was staring at it. And I doubt it was Volthoom, seems out of his scale.

Flashpoint changed the timeline and history of individual Earths, but the Multiverse as a whole was largely unaffected.

>52

Morrison was a writer on that too, remember?

>Infinite Crisis

Okay, I'll give you that. My point was that usually Johns' ideas line up pretty squarely with what Morrison lays down already so we should be looking at this as a continuous heuristic fitting within our current understanding of the Multiverse, rather than "OH NO EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG"

Oh so neither 52 nor Infinite Crisis nor Flashpoint led to everything changing in DC? Bandwagoner confirmed.

>EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG

Johns is pretty (in)famous for his constant retcons. He has been teasing for a while that what you just said would be one of the core ideas of rebirth.

>Johns is pretty (in)famous for his constant retcons

There's a difference between a retcon and something that completely restructures the entire DCU.

Think of it as the difference between using different browsers on your computer, vs. completely changing operating systems. One is a different program that's still designed to work within a specific programming language, the other is completely changing that language entirely.

>Morrison was a writer on that too, remember?
Yeah with Johns. Stop sucking Morrison cock and claiming everything is him.
Look at Multiversity. It was a disappointment in every way and lived up to none of the expectations.

>Think of it as the difference between using different browsers on your computer, vs. completely changing operating systems. One is a different program that's still designed to work within a specific programming language, the other is completely changing that language entirely.
Ah but user you forget apples are all basically the same and whether you get red or off red apples the nutritional value is almost all the same. Looks like you're wrong.

>Look at Multiversity. It was a disappointment in every way and lived up to none of the expectations.

You serious? A couple of the issues weren't as great as advertised (SOS, Mastermen), but overall I loved the miniseries.

Dammit, I know I've seen it. Now I'm gonna have to reread through 20 fucking issues trying to find it and...oh shit, the Krona arc was the last one BEFORE Flashpoint, wasn't it?

Well among the cosmic scales retcons and changes that Johns is responsible of there is:

>Bug Parallax
>Life and the life entity actually originated on earth
>Prime punching reality
>the restoration of the 52 multiverse and Mr Mind's rampage (granted this was a colaboration)
>The multiverse resets cyclically and the recent crisis are just an acceleration of the process
>The anti Monitor has actually destroyed the multiverse more than once
>The life equation and anti Life equation are forces of physical creation
>The anti Life equation is the power source of the anti Monitor

>Multiversity lived up to expectations
Hey newfag I know when you jumped into your first comic Multiversity to hang with the cool kids it seemed fun. For the people that've been here a while it met none of the expectations:

>no cosmic six shooter
>no page with every DC character ever
>no series spun off from the worlds
>didn't gain superpowers reading it
>didn't open a portal from our world to DC
>didn't cause an apocalypse
>NO COSMIC SIX SHOOTER

It did. The arc was Wrath of the First Lantern. In it it hints that Volthoom was the hand that they saw.

Didio himself stated they didn't really think of the multiverse during Rebirth discussions(in that Newsarama interview this week) so I really think all these theories are moot till Morrison comes back or someone who actually cares like..idk, Dan Abnett maybe?

>The final spread of Multiversity #2 was close enough. You know portaying every character ever is straight up impossible.
>Multiversity Too will be coming soon. There will probably be updates at sdcc
>You didn't read Ultra Comics?
>The comics ARE the portals. You're just limited by the memetic barrier
>The memetic barrier doesn't allow us to experience the apocalypse physically but right now we are being drained by the oblivion machine. That's close enough.

Yeah, Krona fucking stuff up was the last pre Flashpoint arc

The solicits explain that there would be "Multiversal Mayhem". Also the new 52 was a multiverse wide change. Didio probably meant that there wouldn't be a multiverse series.

>portaying every character ever is straight up impossible.
>he didn't expect the impossible from Multiversity
Just go. You don't belong here. Might I suggest reddit where they praise stupid people like you?

>expecting anything Morrison writes to be picked up by other writers

You should know better by this point, self-proclaimed oldfag.

On its own merits, Multiversity was pretty fucking great.

Did Manhattan go around changing the multiverse too? Or was it a group thing like:
Barry is messing with time
At the opportunity Pandora combines some universes
Manhattan then swoops in and steals time

You do know that Sup Forums, for better or for worse, is all over Multiversity's cock right? I know you're trying to fit in, but your constant le reddit newfag xD isn't helping.

That was Berganza's promise,IIRC. Not Morrison's. Also the page where the orrery is seen from the outside shows every character ever. Fag.

Given that apparently Pandora is dead, I'm thinking that he was using her to use Barry to fuck with the timeline.

>le reddit newfag xD
You are literally the only one that posted that.

>first hypercrisis thread I make and it's already being taken up by shitposting

Oh no Sup Forums! The Gentry have kidnapped you! But you can escape. Post number determines the Earth you go to but careful if you don't get a listed Earth number Dr Manhattan will make you suck his blue dick.

>Nah, I've always liked the idea of the Joker being a memetic virus, but sure we could go with the "Glitch in the Matrix" idea too.
Joker can be a memetic virus and a glitch in the system at the same time.

I think we should revisit the idea of where Captain Atom went when he left in Pax. Like is it possible the Empty Hand made him part of the oblivion machine and thus caused him to become the Dr Manhattan that did the Rebirth stuff?

Just spitballing here of course.

>think we should revisit the idea of where Captain Atom went when he left in Pax

That's when he gets recruited for the mission in Superman Beyond 3D.

ROLLING

That's what we thought at the time but is there anything conclusive proving that?

>glitch in the system
That's more a Marvel thing. Check out the machine theory. DC is an organism and Marvel the machine.

Nope, but it makes as much sense as anything else so why the fuck not.

Yes, reading the comics proves that.

So I guess the equivalent would be DNA structure, or carbon-based life in general.

Like in genetics you have highly conserved genes that generally do things that direct body planning for organisms (homeobox genes), or govern basic metabolic functions in cells.

For example, all bilaterally-symmetrical animals have the same sets of genes that pattern that symmetry as they are descended from the same originator of it. They can have various additions to that body plan (repeated or deleted segments, distinct heads or no, different organs, eyes, etc) but the same basic pattern is being built on.

This is the first hypercrisis thread I've been in

dickpics or gtfo newfag

Here's to catch you up.

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I'll drop some shit too.

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It is unclear if he went to Final Crisis or the House of Heroes. Him not showing up in issue 2 suggests FC, but doesn't prove it.

I read Doom Patrol, Batman/Infinite Crisis, and Animal Man. I'd like in on this, is there a reading list?

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Bit old though

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These timelines need to be edited.
I'll drop two that spawned from hypercrisis threads.

This was a bad reading list to begin with (too focused on events), and looking at it now makes it worse.

Where's sandman, where's Planetary

The other better made but slightly different one.

Oh forgot there was a third timeline image.

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Where's the other guy that was dropping stuff?

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Going to bed, thanks for carrying on.

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Cause I just realized I don't have like half the images that usually go with explaining hypercrisis. Like none of the Batman ones or Joker ones.

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Also note, this is an animation that shows how Earth and Venus' orbits converge on each other. Notice the similarities?

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Oh shit I just read up on that and it gets better.

>Venus orbits the sun 13 times for every 5 times the Earth does
>guess what 13 minus 5 equals

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Some user tried to start a thread where he pointed out that the map of the multiverse actually looks like a hydrogen atom. I'm curious about what rebirth is bringing to the table for future threads.

Oops, mis-read the page. it's actually

>8 Earth orbits per 13 venus orbits
>5 "apogees" or moments when they are at their closest distance during that period

Fuck me, that fits up even better

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Not quite the same, the Multiversity map makes a rose with only four points, this one has five.

From an earlier thread.
Someone pointed out a deck of cards has 52 playable cards a multiple Jokers. And then this thing sprung up.

>Diamonds
Heroes
King-The Superman
Queen-Magic Hero
Jack-Skilled/Jack of all Trades
Ace-The Everyman

>Hearts
Supporting Cast
King-Legacy/Passed Mantle
Queen- Love Interest
Jack- Young Protegie/Teen Titans
Ace- Authority Figure Looked up to

>Clubs
Villains
King-Mastermind
Queen-Femme Fatale
Jack-Themed Villains
Ace-Brute
2-10-The Swarm/Masses/Waves of Enemies

>Spades
New Gods
King-Darkseid
Queen- High Father
Jack-Orion
Ace-Mr Miracle

And 3 Jokers/Wildcards

First time dealt: Pre-Crisis
Second time dealt: Post-Crisis
etc.

The dealer's hand passing out the cards is the Hand of Creation.
The dealer's hand holding the deck is left empty after they're dealt is the Empty Hand.
After the cards are dealt the hand picks up the cards to reshuffle the cards around and play another world with the same sets and characters just rearranged.

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Or you could just save time and use the equivalent ideas from a Tarot deck, because our current suits are based off of the minor arcana from it.

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Do both.

also worth mentioning that the fact Manhattan had to steal time and 'love' from the DCU rather than just pulling everything out of his ass paints him as more of a demiurge than a legitimate creator

>and 'love' from the DCU

Wait was this explicit? Because from the preview, it seems to me more like the loss of the different relationships that are coming back was due to lost memories and history.

well in an organic system, the most obvious example of a 'glitch' are cancer and HIV/AIDS, the former being out of control cell fission and the latter being an out of control immune system

I got some of the joker ones but either I'm missing one or I fucked up the numbering

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I guess this holds up if you just change "by Pandora" to Dr. Manhattan.
Which would mean if Rebirth is going to be about affecting those changes he made to create the 7th incarnation of the DC cosmology we are about to enter the 9th incarnation of the DC cosmology.

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>HIV/AIDS, the former being out of control cell fission and the latter being an out of control immune system
AIDS is the opposite of that. It is a dead inactive immune system. What you described is called autoimmune disease like lupis.