Kubrick: "Art is not subjective"

>I think modern art's almost total preoccupation with subjectivism has led to anarchy and sterility in the arts. The notion that reality exists only in the artist's mind, and that the thing which simpler souls had for so long believed to be reality is only an illusion, was initially an invigorating force, but it eventually led to a lot of highly original, very personal and extremely uninteresting work.

How come Kubrick was such a fucking pleb?
He'd probably watch PJW videos if he was still alive.

Other urls found in this thread:

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon
logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map–territory_relation
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/art
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untitled_(Black_on_Grey)
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

He's right though.

He's objectively wrong

>brainlets show up
Of course Kubrick is right. Nothing is (actually) subjective, or actually random for that matter. Science is and will continue to quantify EVERYTHING in the universe.

science shows that everything is subjective though, nothing has a fixed location coordinate, it's just temporary interaction between various wave functions (all fundamental forces are waves with force particle carriers, this was what the higgs boson hype was about, it's the gravity particle) collapsing when you measure them, but if left unchecked they go on their merry way without any rhyme or reason.

in fact, all modern science of the 20th and 21st century has shown us theoretically, then experimentally that every single thing in this universe is relative to something else.

moons to planets to suns to galaxies to clusters to super clusters to super-structures to expansion and reality. and tracing all that backwards in time to the creation of this chain of events out of a single point of nothing. out of nothing, nothing is the only meaning ascribed to reality, everything is in constant motion including constants themselves and base reality is just your temporary experience which is often changing itself.

Postmodernists btfo

The one, true /our guy/

>Nothing is (actually) subjective

IMOGANE MAI SHOCK
PEEPLE, DON'T THINK THAT CONSERVATISM IS THE NEW COUNTA CULTURA

since reality is nothing he is technically correct. his sentence amounts to nothing is everything is subjective. it's a meaningless tautology. like saying blue is blue.

>science shows that everything is subjective though, nothing has a fixed location coordinate
No, stupid. That's not what the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says.

>no argument to be found
>unironically thinking that in another million years of scientific progress we'll never be able to know why certain movies suck

Why do so many intellectually lazy idiots come here to discuss film when they don't even think it can be judged? lol

>"MUH EVERYONE'S OPINION IS EQUALLY VALID"
No.
Your subjective opinion is objectively shit.

is there anything more unintentionally hilarious than relativists/subjectivists?

>quantum physics and kubrick both use the word “subjective“, so it means the word and can be applied to the field of physics and arts
Stop argueing with quantum physics if you know about it on a popular science level

Art itself can't be subjective you literal brainlets because subjectiveness implies a person.
Only someone's perspective on that artform is ofcourse subjective.

Some people unironically like music from David Guetta, that's their subjective opinion.
I can make a whole essay how fucking generic and repetitive his songs are but that doesn't change the fact that they genuinely like it.
Therefore all perspectives on any artform are completely subjective.

Indeed, he's bang on

No he's spot on.

Different types of people have different opinions, yes. But there is still an objective reality to what constitutes good art (art that is popular, since that is quite literally the only measure of whether art is good or not).

And now you will say "no popularity doesn't equal worth, what about Justin Bieber"

Actually you're wrong. Popularity does equal worth. You and your contrarian pretentious buddies might have a hard-on for some obscure French film and give a bunch of reasons why you think it's "better" than a Hollywood blockbuster, but again, if there are a bunch of you who think this French film is good, then popularity is again an indicator of that film's worth. As I said, different types of people have different tastes. Men have different tastes to women (there's diversity within both groups, but in general, men and women skew towards different things, because we have very different levels of hormones, due to our genitalia - men produce 20x more testosterone than women because we have testicles).

I mean, let's say you found an obscure French film that you thought was amazing, the height of kino, but even pretentious film critics hated it. Literally nobody else in the world liked it, apart from you, and you think it is the best thing ever, and you think you can explain *why* it's so good. Then is that movie good? Why? If it's not popular then it's not good, in my opinion. "Good" means that something has gained approval from people. Popularity is approval.

You might be able to define things you think are objective measures of the worth of a movie (its pacing, its scriptwriting, whatever). Well I guess these are the standards humans have defined for "movies", but those standards change over time. And all these standards are only verified by our approval. Our approval is the only thing that matters. Any other standard is subservient to the over-arching standard: approval.

You're halfway there, here's the rest:

When you like or not like something, this is a true subjective opinion and can never be right or wrong. You're simply saying 'I like this thing.'

But when you say something is good or bad, you're making an objective statement about the quality of that thing. This requires reasons why. Those reasons can be good or bad, logical or illogical, and can be superior or inferior to other arguments, and thus more valid.

>science shows that everything is subjective though, nothing has a fixed location coordinate

So you don't believe that there's some objective reality that we are all observing?

Okay so if I get a gun and hold it to your head then you won't be afraid if I shoot you, right? Because it's just subjective bro, there's no objective reality, who's to say that a bullet to your head will kill you? That's just subjective bro, SCIENCE SAYS SO

>trump pic

didn't read

>art that is popular, since that is quite literally the only measure of whether art is good or not).
Stopped reading here. Art (like everything) is objective though. At least you started from the right place.

but godel showed in the 1930s that not even mathematics was objective.

really the only objectivity you have left is in a self-contradicting God, which most people have abandoned because it's not required to do business and all human beings are just business machines selling and buying services and resources. the market is the only arbiter you need realistically.

what? i have a phd in physics, which science are you invoking to show determinism or objectivity or the lack of randomness? there isn't a single person alive today being published in peer review journals that even bothers arguing for any of those concepts, they were abandoned 70+ years ago when it was proven that humans are incapable of creating anything that cannot later be improved upon.


i realise im talking to a kid with a barely functioning brain and googlefacts as a memory base, but re-read what i wrote.

NOBODY, NO SINGLE PERSON, WITH AN EDUCATION, THINKS OBJECTIVITY, DETERMINISM OR (UN)RANDOMNESS EXISTS IN THE NATURAL WORLD OR IS THEORETICALLY CONSISTENT IN AN IMAGINARY WORLD.


this is why ayn rand is such a fun historical character to troll conservatives with, because all of her theories are bullshit and the market forces decide everything for the individual.

eg the individual is subject to market forces and acts accordingly (something rationally, somethings irrationally depending on complex circumstances which can be modelled with wave functions perturbations on big data structures which collect as much information as possible).

these market forces could be almost anything that happens, predicting or accounting for them ahead of time is a running gag in our group, where we are basically paid to look into the future for wall street banks who have given up on their own theories of economics and need physical models to tell them when to buy and sell and how to avoid risk. it's just a game.

*means the same thing

>nothing is subjective
>let's discuss

So capeshit, Justin Bieber and fidget spinners are the pinnacle of human artform huh?

>this was what the higgs boson hype was about, it's the gravity particle
Wut. Read about electroweak symmetry breaking brainlet.

Kubrick also said "Hitler was right about almost everything", so there must have been some level of insecurity or self-loathing in his mind.

wrong

>really the only objectivity you have left is in a self-contradicting God

;-)

>if something is generic it is bad
You are a contrarian, it's okay though, it's probably because you don't have any friends

>Therefore all perspectives on any artform are completely subjective.
That's objectively wrong.

Different types of people have different opinions on art - people enjoy art that reflects them. So a guy who's into cars will like car movies. A young girl will like Frozen and other Disney stuff. A young girl might also like Justin Bieber because he's a "heartthrob" or something. Many guys like movies about action men, or heroes, or spies (e.g. James Bond, Bruce Willis in Die Hard movies, etc.) because they all embody a figure who leads an exciting life and gets lots of women, and most men want that.

So yes, different people have different perspectives.

But there is still an objective reality which underpins these perspectives. As I said, age is a factor that will influence your interests, biological sex as well (males have testicles, which produce testosterone, which is why we produce 20x the testosterone that women do, and testosterone has lots of effects, psychological and physiological).

So it's not all subjective.

Most people that like those things don't consider them the pinnacle of human artform.

If you only asked people who are educated on the subject you'll still only have a popularity contest.

>let's discuss
Via use of objective logic. Problem? see >but godel showed in the 1930s that not even mathematics was objective.
I'm actually lol'd now. see >what? i have a phd in physics
From Bill Nye 'University'?

>NOBODY, NO SINGLE PERSON, WITH AN EDUCATION, THINKS OBJECTIVITY, DETERMINISM OR (UN)RANDOMNESS EXISTS IN THE NATURAL WORLD
Again, stupid. You have show a woeful lack of understanding of quantum physics or the Heisenberg U.P.

>these market forces could be almost anything that happens, predicting or accounting for them ahead of time is a running gag
You're addressing our ability to measure and perceive those variables, not that they're actually random.

But this is also (objectively) true. Don't project your own self-hate onto Kubrick, bro.

>popularity = quality
These might be the dumbest posts in this whole thread, which is saying something.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

>>I think modern art's almost total preoccupation with subjectivism has led to anarchy and sterility in the arts

Kubrick hit the nail on the head.
Reminder that Picasso and the like's push for the 'modern art' trend was a deliberate use of incompetence in order to degrade the sense of quality and measurable effort in the art world as an act of socio-political warfare.

kek, he wasnt wrong

hitler was a man who failed his goals

>Snowflakes get triggered just by the presence of a Trump image
Boy oh boy oh boy.

Explain how I'm wrong - you can't. The only objective measure of whether art is good or not is its popularity. All other standards (conformance to certain principles, which are ultimately rooted in biological facts about us) are "real" (they are rooted in a biological reality), but they are all REDUCIBLE to "approval".

For example. A piece of art that says something profound about sex could get popular. If it's a piece of art about something very obscure (I dunno, let's say a bicycle brake caliper. Just a painting of that) without having a wider meaning, then it's unlikely to get mass popularity. Because it doesn't appeal to as many people. So you could say that's a principle of "good art" right there - art that speaks to lots of people. Or perhaps, in the case of a painting, the quality of the painting (the skill of the artist) is something you think is a principle of good art.

People will just argue over these at length though, because different people value different things from their art (bicycle fans are more likely to like art about bicycles. Men are more likely to like certain types of art because we're biologically different to women. Etc.)

In my opinion the only truly objective measure of whether art is good or not is approval. All other standards that we come up with are just reducible to approval. Why is the Mona Lisa considered great art? Again we could say there are principles at work (like the principle I mentioned, that great art should have mass appeal). But again that's just the same thing as saying "good art is art that has mass approval", is it not?

Any standard that you try and come up with doesn't really matter, only approval does. Because your standard might only be valued by a small proportion of the population. And then why are your standards objectively better than those of a bigger section of the population? They're not.

Art is not objective. That makes no sense.

>popularity = quality
Never said or implied that. Maybe if you stopped insulting people and was interested in having a discussion you wouldn't blind yourself. It seems like you're more interested in being right and superior.

>DONT HAVE OPINIONS
>REEEE

>Popularity does equal worth.

No. Popularity indicates popularity. Popularity can certainly lead to more money though, and someone may argue money equals worth.

>If it's not popular then it's not good, in my opinion. "Good" means that something has gained approval from people. Popularity is approval.

That's a logical fallacy, appeal to popularity, argumentum ad numeram.
logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity
>This is a fallacy which is very difficult to spot because our “common sense” tells us that if something is popular, it must be good/true/valid, but this is not so, especially in a society where clever marketing, social and political weight, and money can buy popularity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
>In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
>Argumentum ad populum ("argument to the people") is a logical fallacy that occurs when something is considered to be true or good solely because it is popular. Undoubtedly many popular notions are true, but their truth is not a function of their popularity, except in circumstances where other factors ensure that popularity correlates with truth. The fallacy is the opposite of an appeal to the minority.

>The fallacy is an appeal to authority and a conditional fallacy.

>those links
we got a pseud

>mfw they still tell students in schools to worship this communist

This guy summed it up better than I could: >If you only asked people who are educated on the subject you'll still only have a popularity contest.

Another point to make might be, will Justin Bieber still be popular in 100 years time? If he has enduring appeal, then he probably would be considered one of the most artistically important artists of humanity. Hell, look at Michael Jackson, he has had long-lasting appeal already, and mass appeal too. Or Elvis Presley. Why are they considered good artists? Ultimately, mass appeal.

Remember, there are lots of people that hate Bieber. So that obviously discounts against the claim that Bieber is one of the best forms of art. Instead it is the things more popular than him which we would call the best forms of art. Shakespeare, Dickens, Mozart, whatever - but again it's popularity isn't it.

But if you think there are other objective principles that define good art then please tell me what they are (and I'll tell you why they're all reducible to just approval from humans).

>i don't have an argument so i'll call you dumb

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

The majority of top directors working today absolutely love Robert Bresson and are big fans of his work but he never was as half as famous as them.

So is Bresson actually shit because most people don't know about him?

where did you get your phd from? the higgs boson is not the gravity particle. the graviton is, which is a hypothetical particle.

Yes it is

See the end of this because I don't want to explain to you why you're wrong twice:

>NOBODY, NO SINGLE PERSON, WITH AN EDUCATION, THINKS OBJECTIVITY, DETERMINISM OR (UN)RANDOMNESS EXISTS IN THE NATURAL WORLD OR IS THEORETICALLY CONSISTENT IN AN IMAGINARY WORLD.

Do you think gravity and other laws of physics are merely subjective?

Is the "market" related to gravity in any way?

It literally isn't. There is no arguement. You can't tell me what you think is art and vice versa.

Just because you wanna play mental gymnastics to try to prove it because Kubrick said it, doesn't make it true.

>since reality is nothing

Oh fuck you. You can't just make up large premises and act as if that's already the case.

Had to stop reading the rest of your post before it gives me cancer.

>he is popular with directors
You are literally proving my point

>which science are you invoking to show determinism or objectivity or the lack of randomness
how does this in any way relate to the topic we're debating? this isnt about fucking determinism you're trying too hard mister pee age dee

>the fact that randomness exists in the world means me shitting on a canvas is art
pls neck urself kiddo

What is art is what lots of people consider to be art. That's the only measure there is.

No it isn't.

The measure is what you can personally think but you can't force those views on others. Its as simple as that.

>but godel showed in the 1930s that not even mathematics was objective.
No, he showed that it was internally inconsistent, which is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER IT REFLECTS AN OBJECTIVE REALITY, YOU FUCKING MORON

>Shakespeare, Dickens, Mozart, whatever - but again it's popularity isn't it.

But their "approval" and popularity widely varies depending in which time period you live in.
2001 wasn't approved or popular upon release and now it's considered as one of the greatest films ever made. Maybe in a hundred years from now it will be considered as shit again.
Basing the quality of art on the overall "approval" of people is absurd and retarded.

>Walmart products have the best quality since they sell the most.

>lots of people
No, one guy can decrete something as art if he wishes so.

>Any standard that you try and come up with doesn't really matter, only approval does. Because your standard might only be valued by a small proportion of the population. And then why are your standards objectively better than those of a bigger section of the population? They're not.

Not that guy, but see yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

Do you really think Mona Lisa is considered "great art" because it's popular? You don't think the realism of the painting has anything to do with it? And I think you've put the cart before the horse. The Mona Lisa is popular because it's considered great art. People are told it's great art, the popularity came after.

Funny because most people would put Kubrick's films as "modern art" too

Name some great pieces of art that are considered shit, even by people and critics in that medium.

There are objective reasons why lots of people consider the Mona Lisa to be "art".

You can spend your entire life saying the Mona Lisa isn't art, but that doesn't change the fact that most people in the world (well, in the Western world at least) consider it to be art.

I agree with you that different people have different perspectives, but let's look at what Kubrick said again:

>The notion that reality exists only in the artist's mind

That's what I (and he) disagree with. Because reality actually exists out there in the world. And there are objective reasons why lots of people consider the Mona Lisa to be art. For example, she is an attractive woman. Men like looking at attractive women, for biological reasons. But she is also modestly dressed - perhaps this means that female admirers of the painting think she is a role model of some sort, or at least, they identify with her.

So the idea of "art" is absolutely grounded in an objective reality.

I keep seeing the same follies time and time again. Art is objective, in that we can qualify what art is via family-resemblances.

However, when people say "art," it's largely them STUPIDLY thinking "art" is a quality of material and not a categorization of material, i.e. "This movie is art [good]."

Art is not inherently-good -- it's not inherently-bad, either. Good art is art; bad art is art; mediocre art is art. Art is art is art is art.

A good movie is a movie just as a bad movie is, yes, still a movie.

Over and over, time and time again, people KEEP using art to mean "good" or "great" -- or other synonyms.

Stop doing this.

Art includes objective things, artifacts, man-made objects. What is considered art and not art is often subjective ("that is art", "that is not art").

I do think that quantum physics led to post-modernism which led to the destruction of boundaries over what art "is." If Kubrick said "I think modern art's almost total preoccupation with subjectivism has led to anarchy", I think he's right. Suddenly some liberal fruitcake will call shit in a bowl "art." That kind of relativism probably also explains so much of the magical thinking of liberals in universities, cultural relativism, "tolerance", even acceptance of "transgenderism."

>All spheres of life (e.g., the economic, the political, the sexual, the artistic, etc.) have imploded into one another, allowing art to become commonplace and universal (Baudrillard, 1993). Because art has become part of everyday life, it is no longer transcendental and nothing can be said about it. This is where Baudrillard develops the term “transaesthetics.” Like Baudrillard's other terms (e.g., “transsexual,” “transeconomic,” “transgender,” etc.), “transaesthetics” implies that art has lost its “specificity” and can no longer reference anything. There is no longer any “meaning” in art because life itself has lost the “meaning” art used to reference. In the age of the image, critique is impossible. As Postman (2006) argues, “One can like or dislike a television commercial, of course. But one cannot refute it” (p. 128).

I'm informing user what argumentum ad populum is, since apparently he doesn't know.

The guy thinks popularity = worth, which is a fallacy.

>Basing the quality of art on the overall "approval" of people is absurd and retarded.
>Do you really think Mona Lisa is considered "great art" because it's popular?
It's the only objective measure there is.

>You don't think the realism of the painting has anything to do with it?
There are principles we can identify, yes. But ultimately these principles just reduce to approval. The Mona Lisa is perhaps popular because it is an attractive woman, and men like looking at attractive women. And it's also a modestly dressed woman, and maybe women think that's a good depiction of women. So there are, absolutely, objective factors at play - grounded in the objective reality of our biology. Our biology, ultimately, explains what we consider to be good art or not.

"Approval" is just another way of saying this.

Yup they're the best at what they do (marketing, price, good enough quality), that's why they sell the most. If they weren't the best in all those areas, then people would go elsewhere

This is one retarded ass thread.

>Why are they considered good artists? Ultimately, mass appeal.

I think you're leaving out their actual work they produce.

If Justin Bieber made no music, but was still popular, does that make him a good artist? You're also leaving out, what is it about some work that makes it popular?

As for Shakespeare, I don't think many people independently conclude in a vacuum that Shakespeare made great art, they are told by older people that Shakespeare made great art.

>Our biology, ultimately, explains what we consider to be good art or not.

I'm pretty sure most twins have different tastes and opinions, especially if they are not living together.

I think quality is more than a function of popularity. My own view is that it's a trifecta:
1. Popularity - does the mass population consume the art?
2. Longevity - are people still consuming this art years and years after it's made?
3. Critical acclaim - a bit harder to quantify, but generally "is this art valued by people who know what they're talking about?". Another way of thinking about it would be "can you explain why this thing you like is good?". Art with substance gains critical acclaim, transient vacuous stuff doesn't.

Hence justin bieber isn't a good artist, as he doesn't meet 3 and almost certainly won't meet 2.

Someone like Beethoven meets 2 and 3, and more modern music like michael jackson certainly meets 1 and 2.

thank you. beat me to it.

I didn't make an ad hominem attack.

I said that the argument that "popularity equals worth" is a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum.

And in the case of Shakespeare, Mozart, Dickens, they are first recognized as producers of great art, and the popularity comes later (and even then, only among "classically" minded individuals).

I think you're leaving out all sense of percentages. Popularity is also relative.

If someone is only "popular with directors", then they are unpopular with everyone else. And how many directors are we talking about?

>This thread

How can you post ITT when you haven't cleaned up your bloody room yet?

>Yup they're the best at what they do (marketing, price, good enough quality), that's why they sell the most. If they weren't the best in all those areas, then people would go elsewhere

Jesus, you're so caught up in trying to be right that you're dismissing basic truths. Accessibility does not mean quality and people don't often go to other stores because they value their savings over the quality of products they are purchasing.

Maybe within subjectivism and post-modernism.

art:
"The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colours, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the senses and emotions"
"Skillful creative activity, usually with an aesthetic focus"
"Aesthetic value"
"Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation"
synonym:craft

Prove that art is objective without appealing to a transcendental a priori established truth.

axiomatic incompleteness leads to subjective and relative world views.

can objectivity be internally inconsistent? well everything else is. so objectivity cannot exist.

>"This sentence is a lie."

many possible ways to construct statements with no objective value. So how can reality be objective if you can show "objectively subjective" statements of fact. Objectively subjective things are just subjective, and therefore objective things are subjective, with some self-imposed restriction on degrees of freedom.

the burden lies on you to show that anything objective as you define it exists, this would then be a refutation of godel's work and a reinterpretation of all modern mathematics and physics.

gonna be waiting on your nobel prize winning reply.

I like how you snuck "aesthetic value" in there.

It's completely out-of-place and shouldn't be used.

Maybe if you were elucidating how one describes art, but art, itself, doesn't need any aesthetic value. It could have zero "aesthetic value" and still be art.

Hey, remember when you liked Kubrick?

what are you saying goyim, we need to deconstruct absolutely every aspect of your civilizations, only after the total destruction of western culture and aesthetic a perfect global utopia can arise.
trust me, everything is subjective when it comes to western values, now, brown muslims invaders are objetively good for your country, deal with it.

>It's the only objective measure there is.

No, approval is not "the only objective measure there is." And isn't approval a subjective measure anyway?

If the "Mona Lisa" was pus that was removed from Da Vinci, is it "great art"? No, since standards exist on what is art or not. You might say it isn't great art because it has no approval, while ignoring that it's not a piece of artwork to begin with.

>There are principles we can identify, yes. But ultimately these principles just reduce to approval.

Maybe aesthetics reduces to approval, but art means something made with skillful creative activity. Like another user said, art is a category, but people also seem to use it as a value judgement of quality.

As for markets, many people can't afford the best quality of goods, which are often not mass-produced anyway. Which reminds me of how a painting by Mark Rothko might sell for $82 million, but a postcard version might sell for mere dollars.

When people look at the "art" made by Mark Rothko, that's what makes them wonder why it would sell for so much, since their child could make the same thing. But the Rothko painting doesn't merely have use value and exchange value, but also sign value (the status that having the thing grants the owner).

Jean Baudrillard:
>Theoretically the exchange value of an object is supposed to be derived from its use value. In actuality the use value and exchange value of an object are split into a dichotomous relationship that requires an artificial scale to establish a system of value and equivalence

>It is not the fact that cultural goods become a market and a marketable product, that is dangerous, it is not the fact that aesthetic values become an exchange value or a speculative value, that is pernicious. What is dangerous, we might say, is the fact that economic values, market values, prices, money, speculation, become an aesthetic value, the source of judgement, of pleasure and of aesthetic fascination.

>I'm right and your wrong, here's why

This whole thread.

Wrong

Kubrick was jewish, you stormtard.

self hating jew

Sup Forums: BRAPspammers and theoretical physicists

A flute carved from wood is objectively art, it's an artifact, man-made.

Now, someone could argue that language itself is not objective, but subjective, an overlay that is always attempting to stand in for reality itself.

And in 1986 in the book Waking Up, Charles Tart coined the phrase "consensus trance", saying that from birth, each of us is inducted into the consensus trance of our environment/culture/society, mentioning parents, teachers, religious leaders, political figures, and I would assume, the media. Which would mean that people are told "this is what art is" and later maybe others say "this is what art is", and so perception of what is art and what is not is often influenced by peers, since humans spread memes by imitation, a meme being the smallest unit of culture.

yikes. as much as i hate postmodernism, it's basically right about everything.

penis

badabing

>so objectivity cannot exist.

Do you think gravity is entirely subjective? Note that there is a difference between subjective and relative. When hydrogen bonds with oxygen to form a water molecule, is that subjective?

>many possible ways to construct statements with no objective value. So how can reality be objective if you can show "objectively subjective" statements of fact.

That shows that language is more subjective than objective. Words do not have to match reality. Since language is an overlay of reality, all kinds of statements can be made that have no basis in reality. If you drop an object it will objectively fall to the ground, and all kinds of descriptions and narratives and stories could be told about it after the fact. But language always lags behind reality itself. You can try to predict the future, but by definition the future is something that does not exist.

>the burden lies on you to show that anything objective as you define it exists, this would then be a refutation of godel's work and a reinterpretation of all modern mathematics and physics.

I think Godel's work shows that math is perhaps more subjective than objective as well. Math may be a model that approximates reality "good enough", but that never fully covers it.

Language and math are like maps, but the map is not the territory.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map–territory_relation

nihilistic regressives relativists BTFO

>I like how you snuck "aesthetic value" in there.
>It's completely out-of-place and shouldn't be used.

I was merely repeating the definitions from Wikitionary. Aesthetic value is #4.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/art

As in, "Her photographs are nice, but there's no art in them." Or even "are videogames art?" Another word is "artful."

aesthetic: Concerned with beauty, artistic impact, or appearance.

I never said aesthetic value is a requirement for something to be art. But I would argue that when most people today talk about "art", or argue over whether something is "art" or not, they actually have in mind aesthetic value. So people talk about the value or quality of a thing, rather than whether it's a result of creative work.

People of a certain age would consider the Mona Lisa to be art, but shit in a toilet bowl not art. But liberal snowflakes raised on a steady diet of post-modernism in universities would insist that "art is whatever you say it is." That's what Jean Baudrillard calls "transaesthetics", where the boundaries are dissolved.

>And so, although Baudrillard sees art proliferating everywhere, and writes in The Transparency of Evil that “talk about Art is increasing even more rapidly” (p. 14), the power of art — of art as adventure, art as negation of reality, art as redeeming illusion, art as another dimension and so on — has disappeared. Art is everywhere but there “are no more fundamental rules” to differentiate art from other objects and “no more criteria of judgement or of pleasure” (p. 14). For Baudrillard, contemporary individuals are indifferent toward taste and manifest only distaste: “tastes are determinate no longer” (p. 72).

He's completely right, subjectivism is cancer. Anyone who thinks there aren't objective standards for art is literally too stupid to comprehend actual art and should go back to tumblr

see

I think the art world changed, so now many people think anything is art.

Many people would probably look at this and say "how is that art?" Basically, the bar for art has been lowered, and some people would say the bar has been destroyed and the boundaries have been dissolved.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untitled_(Black_on_Grey)

so everything man makes is art? does it have to serve some purpose or utility? should it exist only for it's own sake, to differentiate itself from tools of mechanical advantage or leverage? is the bleeding through of art from the mechanical tool into the subjective ideation not proof that all art is subjective?

humans want change and are adapted for it. if you understand this, you will understand why science never going to satisfy your religious inclinations to find order or structure where there is very little. if you concede that language is subjective then you've conceded the major bulk of the pragmatism behind this thread. namely that subjectivity is far superior to objectivity and closer to the point neither probably exist outside of human thought patterns for navigation and decision making in general. of course you can't concede that, so you're stuck using a subjective tool to defend your objective belief system. i hope i've illustrated the irony sufficiently.

why not just say it's art you don't like and move on?

some people argue that art has only ever existed as a power mechanism, the powerful make art for themselves, to glorify their superiority, lording it over everyone else. it should by it's very essence be unappealing to those without power. that's the classic marxist argument against art. what we consider beautiful art stems out of a tradition of rich greeks and romans using their wealth and power to commission unrealistic depictions of themselves as perfect godlike beings. in a modern society where anyone has access to food and can train their bodies to look like the greek statues, high art or power art has become this other thing.

a highly intellectualised loop which requires everything of the observer and nothing of the artist, to symbolise that the real art is in who and what the viewer is (say some multimillionaire with an ivy league education) rather than what the artist created.

Completely correct. Sup Forums BTFO eternally.

Can someone link me to this quote?

Why will the modern generation never be able to produce anything that comes even close to this?

Why is
>Muh anxiety
Suche a huge meme.
And most importantly why is evryone so fkn shameless?