So, DC Rebirth. At the end of it, they confront the big bad guy. Secrets are revealed, yadda yadda. They beat him

So, DC Rebirth. At the end of it, they confront the big bad guy. Secrets are revealed, yadda yadda. They beat him.

So what then? He took ten years from their timeline and created the New 52. Are they trying to bring Post-Crisis back? Huh?

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yes. they want their years and relationships back

>It's a "Flash fucks up everything" episode

And people are still fascinated with Superman being evil.

Yes. DC's obsession with rolling the clock back means we're rebooting old shit BACK into the canon

So how are they going to refer to the Wally's?

>Blacked

By calling them both Wally. Funny thing about comics is that it's a visual medium so when you want to know what Wally they're talking about he will probably be on panel. As for their hero names, Black Wally is Kid Flash and I don't know what white Wally will be

>Are they trying to bring Post-Crisis back
Pretty much.

So who else cried like a bitch when Barry and Wally hugged?

Wally and Nash

It literally wasn't though

Here. I was already gone when Linda didn't remember Wally though

If they honestly and truly go back to restoring legacies and classic characters, I am going to buy more comics after Rebirth.

I stopped buying comics, cold turkey, when The New 52 consequences became clear.

It was a middle finger to those of us who cared about the characters' stories.

Wally and "Wally that shows up in the background of some team-ups but is rarely seen".

what's with the giant jew noses on these guys?

To be fair, you could make the same argument that Barry/Hal/etc all being replaced was just as bad at the time.

THR interview with Johns on this topic:

>>The end is the beginning — at least when it comes to DC Universe: Rebirth.

>>The oversized special edition comic book, which is released Wednesday, begins a relaunch for DC Entertainment's entire superhero line spearheaded by DC's chief creative officer Geoff Johns. In fact, the Rebirth issue is Johns' last major comic book work for some time, before he takes on different responsibilities for awhile (Something that he declined to comment on, when asked about).

>>The Hollywood Reporter spoke to Johns about where Rebirth came from, what it means for the company as a whole and the importance of optimism even in the face of adversity.

>>Rebirth is likely not what people were expecting, at least before spoilers broke this past weekend.

>It's a very personal story for me. I put so much of my passion for the universe, and everything I love about it into the book, and I hope people love it, and I hope people respond to it. I'm actually pretty pleased that nothing leaked until the weekend before the book came out, because we worked really hard to keep everything in the book under lock and key. I did want people to experience the emotional journey of it, because I think the most important thing about it is the emotional journey. There's not a lot of plot in that book, you know? It's all character.

>>There's a lot of focus on relationships in the issue, both new — the Ted Kord/Jaime Reyes scene that introduces the new Blue Beetle set-up, and the wonderful dual Atom scene — and old, with the meeting between Wally West and Barry Allen. You're really placing the emotional component of the book front and center.

>That moment to me is more important than any of the revelations at the end.


>>So what was the origin of Rebirth? How did it get started?

>I feel super passionate about the DC characters, obviously. My favorite thing to do — and I've done it since I worked on Stars and STRIPE way back when, because I love all of these characters from Mera to Booster Gold to Metamorpho, all of these crazy characters — my favorite thing to do is to take characters who are maybe off the beaten track, or take characters who haven't been given a lot of love lately, or have been overlooked like Aquaman or the Teen Titans, and work on those characters. Show the love that I have for them, hopefully communicate it in a story, so that other people fall in love with these characters. All I want to do is be an evangelist and spread love for these characters. That's my favorite thing to do.

>My door at DC is just this giant image of Captain Cold. It's not because he's my favorite character — although I really enjoy working with the character — but early on in my Flash run, I reintroduced the character and had been told, "They're useless characters, nobody likes the Rogues." I disagreed; I think every character has potential, you just have to put them on stage and treat them like the big guys. So we did that with Captain Cold, and he gained a lot of popularity in our Flash run and, obviously, beyond.

>I did it with Teen Titans, with [artist] Mike McKone, people were saying, "You shouldn't do it. What if that book's a failure?" After 52, people asked me what I wanted to do next and I said Booster Gold, and they said, "Your career's over." But I believed in the character and the story. In the New 52, they said, 'We want to use Jim [Lee, DC co-publisher] and you on Justice League, what else do you want to do?' and I said Aquaman, and they were like, 'Why?'

>I've taken all my love and passion for the DC Universe and tried to pour it in this special. Whoever it's focusing on, whether it's the Flash, the Atom, the Blue Beetle, I'm really trying to showcase the DCU as a whole.

>But how it came about — Dan [Didio, DC co-publisher] and Jim said that they wanted to stop everything at issue 52 and restart all the titles again, and my first reaction was probably everyone's reaction: Why? Why do that beyond having a new No. 1? Dan said that he wanted to call it Rebirth, and I said, "Woah woah woah. Let me sit with this and come back with you."

>>Well, Rebirth is yours. You're the one who wrote Green Lantern: Rebirth, and Flash: Rebirth, after all. You basically invented the brand for the company.

>Yeah, Rebirth means a lot to me. The truth is, Green Lantern: Rebirth and The Flash: Rebirth are called that, but if you look at most of what I've done: Teen Titans could've been called that, Aquaman could've been called that, even Booster Gold could've been called that, because what they're doing are bringing the characters back, moving them forward.

>We have a writers room here with a whiteboard that covers the entire wall, and I spent hours in there listing out all the things I love about DC and the things that I thought were not in the books right now. I sat down and I read everything, and I thought, I don't feel any sense of history, legacy, hope, optimism, a cohesive universe — and by that, I don't mean crossovers every week — emotional bonds was a huge one. Over the years, some of this stuff had been lost. Not just characters, but smaller things too, tonal things that are really hard to nail.

>So I went through all of that, and I thought, this is such an emotional story that I need an emotional throughline. Who is the character that can bring me through the story, and the person that personifies it all is the original Wally West. He became a natural for the book, for the narrator.

>That's how the story started, but after that, I was talking to Dan and Jim, and I said, "I'm going to meet with all the editors and the writers to talk about character." And that's all we did, all of us in front of the whiteboard, talking about why we loved Nightwing. Who is Nightwing and what is Nightwing about? What is the compass of his stories? What's his attitude? What stories can only be told with him? We did this character by character by character, and just had a lot of great conversations. Everything got centered.

>I think Rebirth and the launch of the books became not just a relaunch — going back to the original numbering on Action Comics and Detective was very important to me because it says something about us embracing legacy and our history again. I'm really excited about reading the books as a fan, I'm excited to see us embracing our emotional history and the character relationships again. Putting the characters at the forefront again. That's what's important.

>>There's more going on that simply relaunching the DCU line, though. The book ends with Batman finding the Comedian's badge from Watchmen, followed by a scene that directly quotes from the original Alan Moore/Dave Gibbons book. Given the reputation of the original Watchmen, that's a bold move. How nervous were you, bringing those characters into the book?

>Very, but at the same time, what happened with the New 52 was that a brick wall had been built between that and everything that had happened before. In my mind, it was like a brick wall, and it felt like, say, the version I read of Raven wasn't the Raven I'm reading now. It felt like the emotional connection I had with the character broke. I'll tell you a character specifically, and I'll be candid about it: Superboy, Connor Kent.

>One of my favorite characters of all time, and I had a great time writing him in Teen Titans, and I loved writing him in his solo run [in Adventure Comics]. They reintroduced him in the New 52 and he was so different, so vastly changed, that I couldn't connect with the book that well. The emotional tie just severed, and it didn't sever in the way that made me angry, it was worse than that: I had apathy for it. I didn't care anymore.

>One of my first goals was to break that brick wall down with a giant hammer. In doing that, my core idea was that somebody stole moments from the DCU, and it equates to about 10 years. In the book, Wally says that, but it wasn't just [any] ten years — it was the moments where the characters started to bond. Whatever moments those were, whatever stories those were, they were extracted. And that's why the characters became cold and distant from one another, because they no longer had that history.

>For me, that allowed me to wrap my head around why the characters were younger, why they had no emotional ties, but also say that it was still fighting to come back through. You can't beat down hope, you can't beat down optimism. There's a reason that Batman, who's the darkest of them all, keeps fighting. He believes tomorrow would be better. Otherwise, he would stop. He's certainly had plenty of opportunity to quit.

>I really wanted to deliver a tonal shift for the DC Universe so that it could give back that sense of hope and optimism. That spread at the end [of Rebirth] with all the heroes — that spread is so important to me, it's one of the most important things in the book. I wanted to end on it, I wanted people to see a modern-day version of those great Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez spreads where the heroes are celebrating their existence and reaffirming who they are, and going out there with an attitude to show that.

I disagree.
They weren't literally erased from history the way New52 tried.

Just look at what they did to the JSA.
Erased from history and then "replaced" by completely different characters from another dimension just so a couple of them could be rewritten with different sexual orientations.

Or Wally being gone just so they could try to lend his name to a new character of a different race.

>All of that said, I needed a character who would embody a disconnect from a sense of optimism and hope, and somebody who manipulated time, and it was right there. You have a — I don't call him a villain, he's barely an antagonist, but he's an entity, a being who looked at the DC Universe and tested it, removed this time from it for reasons that are to be revealed later, but almost to study it. I know it was risky, but we need to take some risks. Let's take the risk! If I was going to go into this and try, I wanted to try big.

>When I thought of using Dr. Manhattan, I knew it would be possibly — probably — very polarizing, but I also knew that thematically, and metaphorically, there was no better choice. I think it'll get people intrigued, and I think it clears the way for conversation about tone, and I think those are good things.

>>You talked about the spread that closes the book, and that really speaks to the tone in a small way that nonetheless really hit me: they're all smiling. It's such a tiny thing, but I loved it. It reminded me of the Flash TV show, and the way it establishes the balance between dramatic, horrible events and a core optimism and humor at its heart.

>I agree, and I think the DNA of DC has always been that. We need to recognize that, we need to get back to that, and, look: It can be done in one image. Someone said to me that it takes time to turn a character around or a book around, and no it doesn't. It takes one issue. Just tell a great story. Show the attitude. That's what I wanted to do with Rebirth. Reset the compass.

>One of the problems I had as a writer in the New 52 is that we're dropped into an open field — here's your character, we're going to relaunch it — and then you look around and think, well, which direction am I supposed to go in? With this, we had the conversation ahead of time: look over there, towards the horizon: that's the direction. And the path isn't narrow; it's not all the characters have to have a cape or whatever. Rebirth is the compass, here's where we're going.

>It doesn't mean that every character is going to be optimistic or have the same attitude because that'd be boring. But it does mean that there'll be a pervasive attitude in DC of belief — not only belief in yourself, but in what you're doing — and celebration, a tone of celebration. It doesn't mean there aren't going to be threats, or that we're going backwards or being regressive, but it does mean that the pervasive attitude in the DNA of DC is optimism. Which I firmly believe.

>>The Legion of Super-Heroes scene really underscores that. In the midst of these cosmic events, having someone from the future — who knows how things will turn out — show up and say, "Don't worry. It's going to be fine."

>I think people are going to skip right by that, but everything in the special is very deliberate. Having her say, "Superman's dead," "Well, I'll wait for him," and "Everything's going to be alright." "Why do you say that?" "Because I've seen the future."

>>It's a nice way to bring the Legion back into the mainstream DC Universe after them being absent for a few years. It's difficult to find something to do with a group of characters from a thousand years in the future.

>I've always been a proponent of bring all the pieces on the board, all of them, and tell the best story you can with the foundation that you've got. There's no reason to put rules on comics, there's no reason to put rules on the DC Universe. You can't put rules on the DC Universe, like "all characters have to do this, all characters have to do that." The key to Rebirth is to set the compass and then let everyone tell their own stories being true to character, and only to character.

>It was imperative that we spent the time before we started on the books to have the conversations, just talking with editors and characters, about the characters. Why we love the characters. That's how you get great stories, and not screw up the characters. If someone doesn't know about the character or understand why they've survived by decades, you have to help show that person, introduce them to stuff. There's one writer who went away, did all this reading, and came back and nailed it.

>>So, is this really it for you and comics? You're co-writing a couple of the Rebirth relaunch issues, but this seems to be the last thing you have on the cards in terms of comics for the foreseeable future.

>I'm taking a break for awhile. Rebirth is my last book for awhile, Justice League No. 50 is my last monthly book for awhile. But, you know, comics are my first love. I'll be back — I've set some stuff up in the Rebirth special that I'm going to see through — but I need to take a break and take care of some other things. I won't be gone that long. It's nice to read comics as a fan for awhile, though. [Laughs]

>We have a writers room here with a whiteboard that covers the entire wall, and I spent hours in there listing out all the things I love about DC and the things that I thought were not in the books right now. I sat down and I read everything, and I thought, I don't feel any sense of history, legacy, hope, optimism, a cohesive universe — and by that, I don't mean crossovers every week — emotional bonds was a huge one. Over the years, some of this stuff had been lost. Not just characters, but smaller things too, tonal things that are really hard to nail.

...I love you, Johns.

Well, this all but confirms that Conner will certainly be back at some point.

>Are they trying to bring Post-Crisis back? Huh?
No because Captain Marvel isn't back.
So until that happens I regard this as an utter failure of a reboot.

...

>I won't be gone that long

He's going to be back in two years writing the event. I'm sure of it

I felt something, but I've never read much Flash.
If I had, I'd probably still be crying.

>I've set some stuff up in the Rebirth special that I'm going to see through
Okay, Geoff, whatever you say.

my heart grew three sizes

It's a tricky way of putting it.
He's set up SOME stuff he's going to see through.
But how much has been set up that is going to be pushed to the side?

>ywn hug Geoff Johns
;_;

Listen, guys.

I've been asking all day and never gotten a straight answer.

Where. Is. This. Story. Continuing?

Is is through all the Rebirth specials? Will it be in Titans where Wally is back? Will it be in Justice League again? Do we have ANY idea?

>Where. Is. This. Story. Continuing?

Well with the specials , yeah. There will be a lot of build up to the event in all the titles over the next two years though. This will be DC's first line wide event in about 8 years and because of that I'm actually looking forward to it

>over the next two years

Oh fuck my cock, I don't want to read about my favorite heroes figuring out who Jon is for two years instead of reading about them doing, you know, the stuff I read comics about them to see.

Titans is the closest thing to direct continuation it seems, based on solicits.

Oh no don't get me wrong the stories will be about the heroes doing their own thing and getting their relationships back. There will just be a few plot points connected to it scattered throughout the line. I worded that poorly

Yeah, I'm overreacting, but I just hope it doesn't turn into a Secret Wars style "every book is about this" crossover event that ruins every comic for a year.

I need Tim and Kon's friendship back in my life again.

To be fair it is at least two years away and I'm speculating about it being all the books. It could very well be more like Forever Evil which was 4 minis and 2 JL books

I never really read too much flash growing up. I watched the show but even I could feel my heart strings tug feeling that.

Especially the Linda scene, that hurt me like a bitch.

Also as a newbie to the DC universe. I know Watchmen has the same publisher but does this mean we Doctor Manhattan now?

Best guesses

Titans(Wally), Blue Beetle(duh), TT(Blaqualad), Batman(Jokers), Flash(duh)

Where to find the Big Blue Dick itself not exactly sure.

>So what then?

Comics.

Yep. Hopefully it's just him though

Rebirth will continue in Teen Watchmen #1. Read as your favorite Watchmen are rebooted in an edgier modern way.

>You have a — I don't call him a villain, he's barely an antagonist, but he's an entity, a being who looked at the DC Universe and tested it, removed this time from it for reasons that are to be revealed later, but almost to study it.

Okay, this is actually really interesting to me. Does that mean all that time and those feelings and connection and stuff aren't destroyed, or weren't taken maliciously... Jon is just like, "Hm, this, this is what Laurie and Dan were feeling when I smiled and walked by them as they were lying on the floor after banging. Can it be quantified?"

Same. I knew Johns wouldn't make him a villain but everybody overreacted again

Sounds about right

...

Wally West and Tyrone West.

I think it will be more like that, yeah. I want to know why he took time though. It's been said repeatedly that he didn't change time but that he took time. How would he do that and why?

I don't know if I should laugh at you or cry at your stupidity

You have the Shazam family back from Curse of Shazam which is fine enough.

You know, it never even occurred to me that people would see Jon as a villain until I saw people bitching about it. I mean, it's Dr. Manhattan for pete's sake, of course there's not malice intent, just detached, cold, emotion free curiosity tinkering with the fabric of reality from a being that is kinda nigh omnipotent.

>How would he do that
Personally I just imagine it being Jon's Crisis style hand reaching out and grabbing time as if it was a tangible thing away from the DCU.
>and why?
Perhaps it's got something to do with how he perceives time and wanting to experiment.

You underestimate how dumb the comics fandom is

hmmm does this mean snyder's watchmen is cannon for the dccu at least in a multiverse idea?

>The end is the beginning
youtube.com/watch?v=59g5R8rwqpY

Kid Flash and Titan Flash...

I dunno.

Edgy and grit is out according to rebirth, Saturday Morning Watchmen seems to be a much more likely candidate.

>You will never eat cereal with Johns in your PJ's and watch this on a Saturday morning

Feels bad man

They should probably do a JL arc one day where Flash has to beat the rest of the JL. They've done it with basically every core JL member except Flash in one way or another, even if by proxy.

The DCAU kinda did this when the league was under Eclipso's control and again when Luthor took over his body

it's not fair

>Edgy and grit is out according to rebirth
Is that the same comic where people were being randomly obliterated?

I just reread it and I'm crying again
>how could I ever forget you
I love the flashes

No

>which is fine enough.
I guess if your standards are that low.

Pandora got it pretty good at least.

I teared up

B&W pencils of the page where Barry hugs Wally, by Phil Jimenez.

I don't think they'll confront him at all, I think they'll just prove him wrong, that human lives are worth it all, and that superheroes actually do embody hope, love and care for one another, over the course of a year we will see love grow and hope burn bright with the return of Wally West.

If I was a betting man, look at whatever is being written by:

>Dan Abnett
>Tom King
>Greg Rucka
>Steve Orlando

These four seem closest to Johns as a part of his brain-trust of writers. Also, "JLA" is being relaunched down the road, probably more in line with Rebirth plans than Hitch's main Justice League book.

I ugly-cried. Probably harder than any other comic I've read.

> If someone doesn't know about the character or understand why they've survived by decades, you have to help show that person, introduce them to stuff. There's one writer who went away, did all this reading, and came back and nailed it.

As a Harleyfag this worries me. P&C totally 200% doesn't get the character and they are still on the book and I don't they are going yo take time to read the old stuff like Sirens or Harley & Ivy

Wait, GL had a story like this? Not just Hal, any of them.

Phil is so underrated and underused, I'm totally hyped for Superwoman.

It's going to be like it was in the New 52, the solo book is just irrelevant funny book and Suicide Squad is where they'll draw continuity from.

More disturbing than P&C's writing is Harden is still the artist. He's terrible, no one in comic history has benefited more from guest covers than him.

John Timms will return following the Gray and Palmiotti miniseries Delete (indie).

>83170465
>They reintroduced him in the New 52 and he was so different, so vastly changed, that I couldn't connect with the book that well. The emotional tie just severed, and it didn't sever in the way that made me angry, it was worse than that: I had apathy for it. I didn't care anymore.
Yeah, that about sums up New 52 for me.

Timms is serviceable, but they should get that guy who works with them on Painkiller Jane and Super Zero.

The SuperZero artist has a new Aftershock series (with Marguerite Bennett).

Linda and Wally is what I grew up with as a kid and are my favorite relationship in comics. I was crying like a bitch at that point.

Yeah there was an issue where the GLs basically take out the Justice League. One of the moments that comes to mind is Jon Stewart making a giant stop sign construct to take out Wally.

Hal also, you know, had Parallax which included the Justice League getting trounced by him.

At least try when you pretend you read comics

>have to wait til july for hellblazer

Wasn't Wally's whole point at the end that Barry actually didn't fuck things up

WSJ interview with Johns

>Is the age of “Watchmen” dominating the comic-book conversation coming to an end? If DC Comics creative chief Geoff Johns has his way, it just might be.

>Superheroes were never the same after DC published the seminal “Watchmen” in 1986 and 1987. The comic, written by Alan Moore and drawn by Dave Gibbons, is a blistering satire of cape-and-mask-wearing avengers, suggesting that the four-color heroes would do more harm than good if they were real. The graphic novel is routinely hailed as one of the greatest comics ever, its influence expanding far beyond the page.

>The bleak tone and ideas of “Watchmen” – particularly the notion that superheroes can be bad, or at least horribly flawed, people — seeped into and spread throughout the genre. “I do think what happened afterwards is that a lot of people tried to emulate the tone on every character,” says Johns.

>Some, such as “Preacher” and “Hitman” writer Garth Ennis, say that “Watchmen” actually was the final word on the superhero genre, and that the industry has been clinging to the characters out for security ever since. The grim legacy of “Watchmen” can be found in superhero movies, as well. Zack Snyder, who directed a film adaptation of Moore and Gibbons’s work, has injected the “Watchmen” style of superhero deconstruction into his big-budget Superman movies “Man of Steel” and “Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice,” an approach that divided fans and critics.

>Now Johns and DC want to turn all of that perceived negativity on its head with its latest relaunch. “DC Universe Rebirth,” a comic book which went on sale Wednesday, is a compass for the new era at the publisher. “It’s a very general direction, but it’s toward the sunrise,” Johns says.

>The writer says “Rebirth” is an attempt to deconstruct the deconstruction of Moore and Gibbons’s work. “I think ‘Watchmen’ is a great book, but I don’t think a cynical take on superheroes is the truthful one,” says Johns. “Everyone says that’s the realistic look. I reject that because I think people at their base core are good.”

>ope, optimism, love, legacy: all are big themes in “Rebirth,” which will no doubt feel like a balm for fans who missed certain relationships and characters. The New 52, DC’s previous relaunch initiative, didn’t connect so well with fans, or with Johns for that matter, and he wrote several of the titles. (The New 52, incidentally, came after Johns’s 2011 “Flashpoint” series, in which the Flash changed everything by going back in time to prevent his mother’s death. On Tuesday night, hours before “Rebirth” was released, the season 2 finale of CW series “The Flash” included a scene that hinted “Flashpoint” may be in the show’s future.)

>What happened with the New 52? What was lost? Some characters, like Superboy, didn’t have the same emotional resonance for Johns. There were relationships that were never forged, such as the romantic connection between Green Arrow and Black Canary. So, “Rebirth” fixes a lot of this, while accounting for much of what the DC Universe has spawned over the past eight decades. But it doesn’t wipe away the New 52.

>“I wanted to put all of it back. It all was real,” Johns says. “I wanted to get away from the idea of a slash and burn reboot and more into an inclusive universe that was only growing by addition, not changing by subtraction.”

>And this is where “Watchmen” comes in. The events of the classic graphic novel were always set in their own universe, and the characters didn’t mix with the traditional DC superheroes such as Batman and Superman. “Watchmen,” rather, riffs on traditional superhero archetypes with characters such as Nite Owl and Dr. Manhattan. “Rebirth” changes that with a shocking twist at the end of the issue: Dr. Manhattan, a scientist warped into becoming a being that can transcend time and space, is the mysterious figure who has manipulated everything in the DC universe and, in the words of Johns, “stole love from us.”

>The writer says he knew exactly how the “Rebirth” issue would end even before he wrote it. Dr. Manhattan gives Johns and the creative teams at DC a powerful antagonist — not a supervillain, Johns stresses — and the character gives the comic a metaphorical weight. It’s time for the universe, then, to confront the legacy of “Watchmen” the way “Watchmen,” three decades ago, confronted the legacy of superhero comics.

>“He took things away that are starting to come back,” Johns says of Dr. Manhattan. “I think that’s a compelling story to tell. Ultimately, what is the more powerful force, is it belief or disbelief?”

They changed it.
Just like with Hal they did nothing wrong ever.

Well, neither of them did anything wrong so that makes sense.

There was that time that Tom Kalmaku used Hal's ring to stop the JL based on how Hal had told him he'd do it

>trying to deconstruct a deconstruction decades after the fact

You never needed to. You could have just left it in the past and moved forward in a different direction.

They're still villainous actions, regardless of intent.

I felt good, as if for one brief moment the stars aligned

I wanted to be happy, but everything connected to the how and background events just left me a little annoyed.

You're about twenty years too late for that man.