Do you find yourself still able to enjoy work by writers/artists who are terrible people...

Do you find yourself still able to enjoy work by writers/artists who are terrible people, or do your views of the person get in the way of enjoying their works?

Depends on if their bullshit bleeds into their work
I have no cartoon/comic example, but there is a very old picture of Metallica's James and Lars giving a Nazi salute...when I listen to a lot of their music, I don't really hear anything that supports that and at times seems against it....so it doesn't bother me, might have been a good.

On the other hand, Pantera have always been under the "are they racist?" lamp lyrically, and givin Phil Anselmo's recent antics I don't fuck with anything he was involved with anymore

Yes, I simply put the creator out of my mind and appreciate the work for what it is.

Varies but generally yes. like i can watch annie hall but manhattan is kinda strange now (despite a perfect opening).

Nobody's perfect

It's a little difficult for me to watch Bill Cosby's stand-up and The Cosby Show now but I can still deal.

My view of the artist definitely colours my view of the work. For instance, Ferris Bueller used to be one of my favorite movies, but knowing that Jeffery Jones is a sex offender who went after teenage boys changes the way I see the character.

And Dave Sim has said such outrageous things about women, that I can't help but wonder what issues he's working through in the female characters he presents. I can't simply take the work as-is.

Matthew Broderick also killed two women and got a slap on the wrists for it.

Depends how terrible they are.
I generally won't financially support them if they're bad, though, even if I still enjoy their work.

b8

>And Dave Sim has said such outrageous things about women, that I can't help but wonder what issues he's working through in the female characters he presents. I can't simply take the work as-is.
Dave Sim worked on Cerebus for over 25 years.

He changed A LOT during that time, so he wasn't the same person from beginning until the end.

He still loved women (both in real life and strong fictional characters) when he was writing the classics like High Society and Jaka's Story, and he didn't begin to change until the buildup towards issue #200, and he wasn't completely committed to his madness until around issue #265.

Not even a decision I really have to make with John K seeing as he has a self inflicted tiny body of work thats even good and has shown time and time again he's incompetent or just plain incapable of making anything new of worth.

Terrible people generally show it through their terrible work.

Addendum: Dave Sim is not a terrible person. He is sick (he has schizophrenia) and he needs help (but he chooses to go untreated).

He deserves sympathy or at least pity, but not scorn.

t. Dave Sim

Depends. If they're just a bad person, like a douchebag, sure, I don't care. Bill Murray seems like an asshole, I still like Ghostbusters.

If they push their politics into things? Depends. I didn't care for Zootopia at all because it was nothing but a big political message from a bunch of ivory tower liberals in Hollywood, but it had much bigger problems (for me personally) than that alone preventing me from enjoying it.

Then again I can still enjoy Watchmen, even when Alan Moore was trying to push his politics, but he was so bad at doing it that he accidentally made Rorshach into the hero.

>do your views of the person get in the way of enjoying their works
Other way around. THEIR views get into their works, and one day that artist you follow suddenly starts preaching about diversity and privilege and non-binaryism, etc. And then the content they put out is Progressiveness first, art/storytelling second.

>Depends on if their bullshit bleeds into their work
This. Pretty simple really, if they're creating good stories but I don't agree with their personal opinions then no, I don't care. If they're basically creating propaganda for a view I don't agree with though, I'm not going to enjoy it.

I feel like a bigger problem these days is dumb audiences presuming authors agree with and endorse the actions of their characters, especially in the case of protagonists.

I'm able to put past my personal views on live-action people more than cartoonists. I can still watch Mel Gibson shit just fine. Cartoonists, more often than not, will have their viewpoints and beliefs bleed into their work. Which is okay, most writers usually create strawmen in their work to make a point, but it gets to the point when the mouthpiece is often stronger than the story. We're starting to see a lot of this shit in Sup Forums where stuff like being gay is a character trait or if a character is an alien/robot, they will go on a tangent about how they do not identify as certain genders for obvious pandering to certain communities.

Adventure Time comes to mind and how the quality fluctuates with who is writing it (The lamp comes to mind). And of course the obvious one with Natasha's Hellcat, "Oh, didn't you know? I'm bisexual!" bit.

Sometimes someone just being dickish enough makes me annoyed at watching a show I like that they work on. Maybe it's because I hate how successful they are while still having a shitty attitude or something. Is it envy or jealousy? It's just like, Jesus Christ, Matt, you work on fucking Steven Universe, get the stick out of your ass, enjoy life, you are fortunate than most people in your own industry right now.

>dumb audiences presuming authors agree with and endorse the actions of their characters, especially in the case of protagonists.
Oh yeah. That too. People can't tell fiction from real life anymore. I blame the boom of social media for dissolving the barrier between what's written on a computer screen and the outside world at large.

I think it's more the case that the sort of people who get mad about the actions of protagonists are the sort of people who write self-insert mary sue fanfics and think every other writer is doing the same. They simply don't understand that someone would write a main character who is flawed or wrong, and think they must believe wholeheartedly in everything the character does.

I think you both make excellent points.

I really don't see why people would have issues with those tweet.

What about male gems for gay males to identify with, Matt?

The gay relationships I see in cartoons nowadays always seem to be female/female. Where is the catering to the gay male demographic?

I don't give a shit about the person behind the art. Why anyone does is beyond me.
I can even appreciate piece of media that push an ideology different from mine if they're well done or entertaining.

>I can even appreciate piece of media that push an ideology different from mine if they're well done or entertaining

I agree with this. It's always good to open your mind to other points of view, even if you strongly disagree.

You'd think that, and I used to think that, too, but over the course time I've become more and more convinced that some people simply have some form of very deep emotional AND moral connection with whatever they watch or read and which transcends mere interest in the narrative.

As in, if this cartoon here or that comic over there - or even a single piece of fanart that doesn't cling to any actual narrative - contains something "mean-spirited", people get genuinely fired up about it; and not because of emotional connection to the character. No, they actually lash against the artist for being cruel, sick, racist, sexist, etc. Even if the content depicted makes perfect sense in-universe, people are quick to blame the author for being "insensitive" (whatever other term is in vogue right now).

Like those people that claim to have broken into tears or started hyperventilating after reading some "mean" comment on some site. I used to think they were exaggerating, but now I'm pretty sure these thin-skinned bozos are actually like that. And they believe everybody else is like that as well. Hence their wishes for censoring everything and enforcing political correctness and "Representation" upon all media. Hence why they see fiction should reflect real life issues at all times, fantasy and imagination be damned.

Just like the Speedy Gonzalez debacle long ago: in the end, it was white liberals getting TRIGGERED for other people, while the latinos and hispanics themselves had no problem and actually liked the mouse.

Like points out. He cannot imagine why people would get so riled up over a meaningless twitter. And neither can I. And the writer of American Psycho, from what I've read recently, cannot either.

But some people ARE like that. They just can't handle teh bantz. They cannot handle anything at all, and believe everyone is like them.

>if they're well done or entertaining.
That's usually not the case, however.

>it was white liberals getting TRIGGERED for other people, while the latinos and hispanics themselves had no problem and actually liked the mouse.

I hate this. I consider myself to be on the side of social justice most of the time (call me that c-word, whatever), but I can't stand when people speak for an "oppressed" group of people without letting them speak for themselves. It's like how 95% of the people I've seen complain that you can't play as a female Link in the new Zelda game are male journalists, when all of my female Zelda fan friends couldn't give a shit one way or the other. If you get offended on behalf of a group that you are not apart of, then you are equally as bad as the people oppressing them.

>Where is the catering to the gay male demographic?
The animation industry is dominated by straight guys. Guy don't want to see male/male relationships, they want to see cute lesbians. Gay men are also much more taboo than lesbians.

It's why children's stuff will have "hint hint lesbians" while all adult cartoons will have gay men flying everywhere.

That's true of most pieces of media though. In fact it's worse when something you agree with is represented poorly.

this desu desu, especially with the speedy gonzalez debacle it felt really strange because you had different caricatures at play with all those characters that it didn't feel offensive. I can understand why some latinos felt offended by it but I certainly never did but whenever you have a certain person telling you you should be offended it feels so patronizing and to a certain extent offensive. Like why couldn't you make something like Speedy, white people getting upset over it almost makes it seem like to them Mexicans are like Harambe or some shit, like they need to protect Mexicans because they can't protect themselves.

>ivory tower liberals

The message in Zootopia was pretty balanced dude. Hate, prejudice, and use of violence can come from either side of the political spectrum, the fact it was Smellweather seems to shit on the left more than anything.

Also, it's so gorgeous.

Cuck.

Yes, I don't care as long as their stuff is good.

I have trouble reading Moore's stuff because his cynicism makes those aspects overwhelming as I read.

>the fact it was Smellweather seems to shit on the left more than anything.
It certainly flew way over the leftists' heads, from what I've seen.

Judging by this thread, it's not the leftists who missed the point.

Explain.

EVERYONE in comics is an irredeemable bastard.

>being a sjw

you don't belong here

no, judging by this thread you sjws are literally illiterate and incapable of understanding ANYTHING

Well, is complaining about liberals and yet nobody missed the point harder than .

This is how the thread dies.

When we are no longer talking about creators and instead we are throwing accusations at each other.

This is how Sup Forums dies.

zootopia is garbage propaganda and no I don't enjoy the works of people who stabbed me in the back and slander my name. FUCK YOU.

Oh boy! Sup Forums and tumblr are here. Now instead of discussing things reasonably we can argue about how having any respect for people of a different race or gender makes you an SJW cuck, and how not enjoying liberal propaganda makes you a literal Nazi.

I didn't hear about this one. Did he full-on slaughter them?

He was driving recklessly, possibly drunk, in Ireland and got in a head-on collision with a car, killing the two women inside instantly. He got off with a charge of $175 and he never bothered meeting the family of the victims or even apologized.

>Muh echo chamber

You're redirecting to the post that started this chain in the first place.

Literally circular logic.

That's not what circular logic is.

Explain how "missed the point", then.

The claim is that leftists missed the point, but in this very thread, the only person who missed the point is a non-leftist.

>it's a thinly veiled shit slinging thread where anons mask their political own opinions behind creators that agree (or they believe agree) with them

They think that the political message is from "a bunch of ivory tower liberals in Hollywood" and not something more moderate.

I never understood the vitriol against Dave Sim. He's clearly suffering from some form and level of mental illness. I feel the same way about Frank Miller. Maybe its because I've dealt with mental illness in myself and others all my life, but the final stretch of Cerebus and The Dark Knight Strikes Again both scream "mental/emotional issues" to me. The paranoia, the incoherence, its all so textbook. I don't get how people read this stuff and just think "I guess he's a dick"

I really appreciate that George Miller still put the art first in Fury Road even though he's all into feminism now.

Because you only deserve sympathy for your mental and emotional issues if you're a liberal. If you are, you can blame anything problematic you say or do on them. f you're not, then you are responsible for everything you say and do despite those issues.

Kind of like how men are still responsible for everything they do when they're drunk but women aren't.

Why does Matt seem like such a fucking nu-male?

Also literally nobody cares if there are "male gems" or not. They like to shit on people who do, but nobody ever actually *does*.

The difference is Miller's DKSA was such a politically charged statement and it was happening during the most politically charged times in America in decades. I'm not saying you're wrong but DKSA reads like a typical post-9/11 knee jerk response and there was a TON of that happening at the time in all forms of media.

Dave Sim's work is much more personal and is really about his personal outlook of the world that was entirely disconnected from current events

People really aren't that good at empathy, so they compensate by projecting.

Really, who isn't a terrible person?
I can read it fine if I don't know about it and if I know I can get over it as long as their writing doesn't suffer.

Most of the time it does, however.

>Sup Forums and tumblr are here.
Sup Forums is made up of people who share a love comics and cartoons, but have varying worldviews and beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that and it invigorates the board desu.

I cannot believe you actually have ever even attempted to read Cerebus. His over the top misogyny wasn't a thing until his insanity which was not until well into his work.
t. Tumblr/reddit faggots who do this bullshit "t." thing instead of responding to the post as if it were the actual person like "Hi Dave" or "Seek help Sim". Fuck you you casual newfag shit. Yes I mad.

We're trying to have a serious discussion here user

>There is nothing wrong with that and it invigorates the board desu.

So where are you invading from, Sup Forums or Sup Forums or both?

Sim was diagnosed Schizo but never got treatment

Its not even the politics that make me think he was unwell at the time, its the change in style and the way he delivers his message.

I try to not feel ofended by the work if the artists has derisive opinions on something, but I guess you sometimes connect the dots and start to see where a particular idea from a work comes from and you can't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable

but yeah I usually try to enjoy the work for what it is.

>invading
>muh secret cartoon club

Not surprised to hear that. Honestly I think his breakdown probably enhanced Cerebus as a whole.
Not to go too Sup Forums, but Evangelion was so much better in the 90s than the new Rebuild stuff because the whole thing was Anno's depression spilling all over the screen in fascinating fashion and I think Cerebus was similar. A healthy Dave wouldn't have written a comic we'd still be talking about in 2016.

It only killed any kind of discussion that is not related to bullshit politics.

Has Miller ever actually said anything about feminism or did he just want to make a badass lady with a robo-arm in his movie and then everyone else screamed FEMINISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's fine as long as it can go beyond calling the other side of the false dichotomy retards.
As is the political discussions are way too entrenched in tribalism rather than genuine discussion and people calling each other outsiders to the Sup Forums tribe (ie. Sup Forums or tumblr) is symptomatic of that.

And the debate also tends to hijack threads that are actually about comics and cartoons rather than how right or wrong their messages are.

What I hated the most was more of how it showed just how useless entitled celebrities like Shakira are who advocate all kinds of social issues they never come into contact with yet seemed to applaud them for it.

>A healthy Dave wouldn't have written a comic we'd still be talking about in 2016.
I'm still talking about the first 150 issues of Cerebus in 2016.

Even without the mental breakdown, Cerebus is still hugely influential to the history of comics. It's the proof-of-concept that showed the world that self-publishing, creator-ownership and writing-for-the-trade are all viable business models.

Well "Feminism" has become a bullshit word that means "thing I agree with" or "thing I don't agree with" depending on which side of the spectrum you're stupid enough to desperately cling to without question.

If you define it as "movie included competent intelligent female characters who want to escape from a rape dungeon" then I guess it's feminist enough.

Yeah.

For example, I still read Ales Kot's works, I just won't spend any money on them once I discovered what a shitty person he is.

He's talked a lot about feminism and brought the creator of The Vagina Monologues on set to consult. He's "openly" feminist.

I don't care whether a creator agrees with my political views or not. I've loved stories since I was child and had my favorite cartoons and books. If I follow a creator, it's for the content they put out. But if their politics bleed into their stories or art in such a way that it disrupts the narrative, then obviously I'm going at least to roll my eyes.

With liberals, it's usually worse. Because modern liberalism is about tilting at windmills, and walking on eggshells all the time in order to avoid doing anything "offensive" or "insensitive". When that translates to storytelling or art, it means the creator is going to spend more time mulling over what tropes to avoid so they won't get called a bigot while at the same time having a "Diversity" quota to fill. So he or she has this big list full of restrictions on one side and another list full of guidelines on the other. And, worst of all, a liberal creator is not even going to wrest these restrictions, but accept them with gusto.

So the result is this inoffensive, toothless, meek product that is 90% propaganda, 10% actual art/story. This mirror for the people in the creator's hugbox of choice to continue admiring themselves like Narcissus at his lake.

A more incendiary author - like even a nazi - will instead opt for going all out. Sure, the work might most likely suck and be covered in chips freshly shaken off that creator's shoulder, but at least it can be judged in a more rounded way and for what it shows, not for what it held back.

When you read Miller's post-9/11 stuff you say, "Goddamn this is really extreme but those were extreme times and on some level a lot of people felt this way...."

When you read Sim's post-whatever the fuck happened to him stuff you say, "Holy fuck dude get help."

Except that his comic created the blueprint for all small press publishing companies and proved that they could thrive in a direct market? Come on man.

He brought her as a consultant because she actually has experience dealing with victims of human trafficking.
I'm not saying he's not feminist but it's not like he consulted bechdel on how to write dialogue.

I love Steven Universe.
No matter how gay or misandric Rebecca Sugar makes it.

His particular flavor of madness-induced drivel leaned closer to traditionally conservative views, and conservatism has been under attack for decades now.

A message can be moderate and still come from an ivory-tower liberal, which is what pretty much all Hollywood writesr are.

>liberals
>modern liberalism
> "offensive"
>"insensitive"
>"Diversity" quota
> inoffensive, toothless, meek product that is 90% propaganda
>hugbox

I don't let other people bullshit get in the way of my happiness: I've got enough of my own.

>conservatism has been under attack for decades now

Explain how using specifics

>even though he's all into feminism now.

I say this completely without irony - there is literally nothing wrong with being a feminist. There is no shame in thinking that women deserve to be treated as equal and should get fair representation and acknowledgement. Feminism as a whole is not a dirty word, but people who claim to be feminists dragged the word through the mud and tainted it. There is nothing inherently aggressive or mean-spirited about being a feminist, but a large amount of people who claim to be feminist sure as hell are angry and spiteful.

>I also prefer
>memeing it up
>over retorting
>with actual arguments

Calm, collected, moderate, rational thinking? Get ready for the (yous)s user. Sup Forums and Sup Forums are already here in full force.

The problem is never usually the "-ism", but its "-ists".

Pointing out how your argument is nothing but meaningless buzzwords isn't meming it up

It's probably my own bias, but I personally can't really think of anything that has good quality but doesn't agree with me politically/socially/etc.

As in, usually anything that disagrees with me is always low quality, while stuff that agrees with me varies from good to bad.

I'd like to think as an objectively minded person that the people I disagree with put message over quality, but it's possible I chose the message that had the best quality to be true.

So I don't know. Stuff like CAD, Dobson, squirrel girl, and Whor is shit quality by shit people, but SU and Zootopia are good quality works with a message that's right of those previous crazies, but is still generally left of center.

Man when that shit goes bad, it goes bad regardless of side look at Holy Terror
I agree liberals do it more often because they think it's okay to inject that crap into the narrative, like it's some kind of noble cause.

That's awful.

Except that's not feminism that you're describing desu senpai. Feminism is nothing more than female superiority doctrine.

>Get triggered by word
>"N-nice b-b-buzzword, shitlord!"

And just throwing "buzzword" which is a buzzword in and of itself at somebody isn't retorting. If you think I'm wrong, then point it out like an actually thinking creature or shut the hell up.

This hit the nail on the head.