/hcg/ Hypercrisis general

Trying to be hip edition. I have little to contribute and it will be slow because captchas, but I'll do the best I can.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq-_SviLVAhy1xISPECRHxTXQmryaw-xH
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

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OP here, that was all I had.

This may be a stretch, but

Are the Beyonders representations of bad writers?

>All-powerful beings capable of manipulating reality
>Running weird experiments that destroy everything
>Found outside of the Multiverse

It feels like they could be the writers, toying with the fictional universe and fucking up, but continuing to do so for kicks and giggles.

It's probably too far fetched, but...

I'm not familiar enough with Marvel to comment.

And on DC's side, there really haven't been any new revelations relating to Rebirth to require revised analysis.

I mean, after Titans it's pretty apparent that the Speed Force is involved with wanting the DCU to go back to pre-New 52 elements with it sparking the memories between Wally and Barry, then Wally and the rest of the Titans, but we haven't had any other big reveals that would require a new threaad.

OP here. I just wanted a Hypercrisis thread for kicks and giggles.

You seem to know DC. Why did Doctor Manhattan fuck the Multiverse? What does he want? Is he evil now?

who are the middle circle?

In the letter pages of Showcase #82, the premier of Nightmaster, writer Denny O’Neil writes that Nightmaster may fall into the limbo of obscurity

Nightmaster is later seen in Animal Man #25, trapped in Limbo. It’s seems that O’Neil’s words ended up being prophetic.

>Why did Doctor Manhattan fuck the Multiverse? What does he want? Is he evil now?

Judging from Johns' interviews, he's trying to explain that Manhattan isn't actually evil, but is a metaphor for how the comic industry learned the worst lessons from Watchman's critical acclaim and trying to shoehorn in its style and thematic material in everything afterwards.

I don't know whether the fact that Johns is ALSO shoehorning in Watchmen where it doesn't really belong is appropriate symbolism or a shocking lack of self-awareness.

Either way, we don't know his motivations or means at all yet, just that he's involved and Pandora blames him for everything going to shit.

No, Johns is. Manhattan achieved enlightenment at the end of Watchmen and transcended his comic book existence, forever leaving the second dimension. He was encouraging readers to grow out of comics.

Johns is a literal fucking retard though so I guess Manhattan made the DC universe (shitting on the creative work of everyone who's ever worked on a DC comic) because Johns sits at home eating cereal and watching cartoons and banging action dolls against each other. Rebirth isn't Hypercrisis, it's Corporate Synergy.

He came back in Shadowpact later on, post-Infinite Crisis, but for all intents and purposes, he's right back there now.

So, it's stupid shoehorning, like having Angela on the Marvel Universe?

this guy gets it

this one is a pleb though and probably doesn't belong in this thread

>He was encouraging readers to grow out of comics
This is retarded because 1. then how would they get money 2. comics haven't been specifically for children for quite some time and 3. it implies that the medium of comics is purely for immature individuals, but that's like saying Television is a terrible medium that only exists for sitcoms and reality shows

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There are no plebs, only the uninitiated. He doesn't understand yet that everything is a part of the Hypercrisis, whether intended or not.


Johns unfortunately doesn't really do big cosmically-symbolic narratives well, and has a tendency to carve out preexisting concepts and characters to fit those narratives when they don't belong. Morrison at least makes OCs to serve those metaphorical purposes when necessary,


It's nice though that they're holding off on developing that aspect of Rebirth in favor of getting the actual heroes' stories off the ground first. The one thing that Johns ACTUALLY does well is selling the characters involved at that ground level, and as with any narrative, if you sell the characters, their motivations and purpose within the narrative, you sell whatever comes next because you're invested in the characters and what happens to them. Rebirth seems to be going that route, and by most accounts is succeeding on it. Once the characters are more established in their new status quo we can worry about the big, cosmic implications of all this.

I'm still flabbergasted that I never caught the "Multiverse map looks like electron orbital shells" connection. I mean for fuck's sake, I have a degree in biochemistry.

true I shouldn't bully him

Compare and contrast Solaris

To Intelectron

The archetypes of the Seven Soldiers.

Toppest of keks

>there really haven't been any new revelations relating to Rebirth to require revised analysis.
I've had one new theory concerning the current nature of the JSA.

Simply put, the Earth 2 characters aren't the same guys as the ones we know and love.
When Alexander Luthor remade the universe, the end result was 52 separate but identical earths, as shown briefly in 52.
Then after Mr. Mind chewed on their history, they shifted into something closer to the way they are now. The support for this is from Countdown Arena, where I recall several Flashes being pitted against each other, namely Johnny Quick of Earth 3, the Tangent Comics Flash who wasn't a speedster, and Jay Garrick of Earth 2.
And at least parts of Countdown were canonized in the Multiverstiy Guidebook with the destruction of Earth 15 by Superboy Prime.

The key part here is that this was Jay Garrick of Earth 2, who was quite young.
After the events of COIE, the JSA weren't from Earth 2, but New Earth, the future template for the 52.

Maybe I'm talking in circles, but what I'm saying is that there are two Allan Scotts now.
Allan Scott of Earth 2, with the dead boyfriend, and Allan Scott of Earth Prime, father of Jade and Obsidian.
Which has the implications of the possibility of two Power Girls.

Is there any issue with my theory?

Yeah, but it was Alan Moore saying that. That's like his whole deal

We actually see the post-Infinite Crisis/52 Earth 2 in an arc of JSA. It's the "Thy Kingdom Come" storyline under Johns, where PG gets sent back to her "original" Earth on the new Earth 2 only to find that there's already a version of the classic pre-Crisis JSA and Infinity Inc there, along with a new (old?) version of herself.

Obviously the events of Flashpoint fucked that up good since the Earth 2 we see post-New 52 is much, MUCH different.

There's two ways that I see this. The first is that the Multiverse has a tendency to replicate aspects of itself when they are removed in some way.

Secondly, in biology this happens sometimes with DNA during the process of replication in cells. Whole genes can accidentally be copied and then might wind up on different parts of the chromosomes (or even on a different chromosome entirely) through other processes. This is a natural part of genetic mutation and shuffling that results in the variation in populations. These copied genes are called "psuedogenes" and usually because they're in the wrong place, they just become "junk DNA" if they are unable to be activated or read by the cell's transcription machinery. But if they are still functional, they usually don't wind up performing the exact same function as the original. Because of their new location, or further mutations that happen to regulatory mechanisms or the protein coding sequence itself, they can sometimes wind up creating entirely new proteins, or allow for the same protein to be expressed at different times in a cell's lifecycle or in different kinds of cells from the original.

The same happens in comics. If you wind up with two copies of the same character or world in the Multiverse, they never stay exactly the same for long. One will either be shut down and never used again, or will mutate to serve a new function within the setting.

I saw this in Morrison Doom Patrol and realized it fit with the new 52 reboot of DC.
You kill the gods in Flashpoint
Slaughter the sacred animals like Detective Comics and Action Comics.
Rewrite the mythologies is obvious
You build roads in holy places like Mr Freeze retcon or separating Lois and Clark or Barry and Iris.

>Slaughter the sacred animals like Detective Comics and Action Comics.

What's "slaughtered" about them though? They just went back to their original numberings, and Action Comics had a few really good New 52 arcs.

>build roads in holy places
I don't like the idea of holding up particular aspects of a comic universe like that as sacred cows that must never be touched. You take that mindset too far and that's what the Gentry support, just rehashing the same storylines in shallower, more toxic forms each time and not allowing anything to progress or change or develop in these settings. And I actually defend Snyder's version of Freeze from that Batman annual issue. Fight me.

It's more a matter of making those changes with good stories in mind, which didn't happen in many regards with the New 52 reboot. In too many cases they just wanted to do things "different" and make it "accessible" while not having a good idea of anything to fill that void with.

explain convergence earth spread.

I've been trying to make heads or tails of Convergence for a goddamn year.
If the New 52 universe is the same as Pre-Flashpoint but with 10 years of moments removed, where the fuck did Clark and Lois come from?

I cannot make an answer with the information I have.

Are Earth's Pre-Flashpoint an Pre-ZeroHour the same one and Earth one as the base?

Infinite crisis says via characters vibration codes are same from previous un-merged Earths.

Is Earth 16 the pre-Zero-Hour Dc or Earth 8 which Kyle Rayner came from?

We see the Earth 4 and Earth X on the spread but no Earth S.

Earth 2's Justice Society is the real ones so says Deimos but aren't the prime earth are too?

Here is the hypercrisis playlist for anyone who is interested. If you think a video should be added, just post a link here and if it isn't stupid I'll add it to the playlist.
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq-_SviLVAhy1xISPECRHxTXQmryaw-xH

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How do the Endless, the Emotional Spectrum, and the Seven Soldiers relate to each other?

52 post get

It's all speculation, but I think the idea is that each part makes the next. Combined, the archetypes of The Knight and The Reporter represent hope. And combined, the emotions and Hope and Anger make Delirium.
I think it's a little unrefined, but I also wasn't in whatever thread it was made in so I don't know the reasons for the placement.

Brainiac stole Metropolis from a point in the timeline and the universe replicated it in its absence.

They're all groups of sevens important to the structure of the DCU.

I get the impression Moore still sees a lot of merit in the comics medium, he just doesn't find most characters' issues to be relatable to most human beings' existence. And he fucking hates the kind of people that run the comics business for the most part, of course.

Someone who thinks comics are something to be outgrown probably couldn't have produced his run on Supreme, Promethea or League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Which reminds me, do these threads really need to stay bound to DC stuff? They always return to that and Morrison, and although they cover a lot of interesting ground they almost feel like ads for a book Morrison might write one day.

There's a lot of metafictional stuff in works like LoEG, and big long running takes on the concept of multiverses in the like of the Super Robot wars series and their spin offs (which /m/ may be better qualified to discuss, but still, characters from that have basiically interacted with a lot of anime and videogame universes).

They don't have to be tied to DC stuff, but it's easier to see the connections there. I wish I was more familiar with mecha shows to contribute to talking about the Super Robot Wars multiverse.

Alright, I can't quite yet grasp the Hyper Crisis, but I am really interested in Final Crisis. I hear it is a little harder to access than most of Morrison's work though. Like it is supposed to read like an epic starring a pantheon of gods, not a Justice League team-up? And just in general has stuff some people dismiss as shit, but actually has some abstract substance and meaning behind it?

So tips for reading Final Crisis would be appreciated.

Nothing that complicated, you just will probably need to reread it a couple times.

Also helps to familiarize yourself with Kirby's New Gods work.

I'm not fully versed in it either, but there are some interesting parallels to DC's multiverse and history, like how original characters in ealy crossover games that would makes the likes of Gundam, Ultraman and Kamen Rider work together would return as themselves in the SRW Original Generation games, and how those tie into Namco X Capcom and Project X Zone, whose protagonists reflect some interesting dynamics regarding games and players.

For one, Final Crisis: Superman- Beyond 3D is vital. If you can get a pair of 3D glasses, it'll help even more.

But it is the collimation of a bit of stuff, particularly his JLA run, and it's smack dab in the middle of his Batman run. So read Final Crisis first, then when you get around to Batman, read it again.

And read some of the tie-ins too, like the Green Lantern issue is only important to John's War of Light, but the one about the Tattooed Man is important.
And give the Aftermath books a glance too, D.A.N.C.E is fantastic.

Also hit up COIE if you haven't already. The first before the Final.

In the Lantern system, yellow is associated with fear and red with rage, which aren't emotions one would readily associate with the Flash, yet they're classic aspects of the Kryptonian symbol of hope - then again, that's usually depicted contained in blue, which is the color of hope among Lanterns...

Another character heavily associated with the same colors as the Flash is classic Captain Marvel, which is in peculiar circumstances in history and the current scheme of things:

- did very well in its early days and prime, so it connected with its audience

- DC gets litigious due to similarities to Superman and makes it cease publication. The character with the blue of hope in its colors gets to stick around, the one without does not.

- a few years later a comics company called Timely takes on the name Marvel, which under different circumstances clicked with an audience some years before. They would later acquire the rights to use the name Captain Marvel for a character too, and never let go.

- DC would alter acquire the rights to the original Captain Marvel character, but its common aspects with Superman tend to push the character to the sidelines, most of the times replicating in the comics the legal conflicts of years past, or to mock an older age of comics. Unable to promote the character's name due to the Timely/Marvel acquisition, its status has been in a near-limbo since.

- Marvel kills it Captain Marvel and keeps passing the name around very different characters, few to none of which connect with the broader audience on a significant level.

On some level the hopelessness bruoght from both DC and Timely/Marvel undermining the character affected both of them and the character negatively.

Nowadays one of the elements of the character's mythos, the Rock of Eternity, which among other things contains totems for the seven deadly sins, is at the very center of Multiversity's multiverse map, curiously shared with the Orrery of Worlds.

I tend to see two possible, non-mutually-exclusive meaning to the placement of the Rock of Eternity at the center of everything:

- as an embodiment of virtues that enabled the character to earn his powers, the structure associated with him functions as a sort of heart of a multiverse where superheroics are common

- as a character trapped by actions by different entities that hold the right to important elements of its identity, the character is functionally a prisoner of the multiverse, in a way belonging to both an none.

Not to mention that in any case a whole lot of universes may have grown over time around the center of the multiverse, and the character is one of the classic oldies after all.

You are forgetting the one other color associated with Captain Marvel. The color white, the color of life. The life he will once more have once his film comes out.

True, although I recall reading the for one one more Fawcett issues he skipped using the cape in order to try and avoid more Superman plagiarism accusations, so in a way it can be considered a more secondary color.

It's also something that never makes it to modern depictions, like how Mary Marvel has been depicted wearing red, white and even black, not to mention that one cowgirl version of her outfit.

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And there's this bit.

>Rock of Eternity is at the very center of Multiversity's multiverse map,
This made me think. All the universes share one rock of eternity, but there are several multiverses.
What if the rock and multiverse works like black holes and galaxies. When several stars circle a black hole it makes a galaxy and different black holes make different galaxies. Maybe different Rocks of Eternity attract universes to make the different multiverses.

In Shazam! The Monster Society of Evil, above the Rock of Eternity is the where the previous universe and the present universe meet.

perhaps it is more accurately where the previous, present, and future multiverses meet rather than universe

>previous universe and the present universe
Can you tell me more about this? I get it with Marvel and Galactus so understand the idea. But in DC with The Hand of Creation and all the travelling to the beginning, reality being a mark on the overvoid, and the 3rd and 4th world with new gods how does a previous universe work?

I don't really know much. The Monster Society of Evil is the only Captain Marvel thing I've ever really read and it's also an elseworld. Although, I guess saying that it's the point that the previous universe and the present universe meets isn't entirely accurate. It's more like it's the point where the previous universe ended and the present universe began.

I've seen it with Relic and the last Green Lanterns arc. Of all the things in DC cosmos a universe that came before just seems to irk me the most, with all the outside time entities and origin of creation stuff and the Superman Beyond story.

Wait.
The Emotional Spectrum holds 7 lights, merging them together gives us the 8th light... life.
However, when alone, the lights then to fight each other, they are unstable, and can lead to death, the absence of light, black.
So, again, 7 is chaotic and can lead to death, while 8 symbolizes life.

I plan on rereading Seven Soldiers specifically looking for groups of seven with eight members.

You're all welcome.

Okay, I've got this hundred-something page wikiguide to Hypercrisis, but I don't remember where I got it, and I don't know how I can distribute it without signing up for some bullshit I'd rather avoid.

How do I give this to someone else?

can you put it on pastebin?

Copy the link and post it here.

It's a PDF file.

Oh hey I also have that pdf. Plus the torrent file for recommended reading.
No idea how to share them.

I don't have the torrent, paste the magnet link.

Sent you a DM

illuminati confirmed

I don't know how to do that.

I don't see them doing the illuminati secret handshake anytime soon...

Open your torrent program, right click the file, choose copy magnet link, should be.

>right click the file,
Right click the file in folder or in the program?

Program.

>I don't like the idea of holding up particular aspects of a comic universe like that as sacred cows that must never be touched. You take that mindset too far and that's what the Gentry support, just rehashing the same storylines in shallower, more toxic forms each time and not allowing anything to progress or change or develop in these settings. And I actually defend Snyder's version of Freeze from that Batman annual issue. Fight me.

There's nothing new in rehashing and changing origins for the sake of rehashing and changing shit. That was the main problem of New 52. Why turn the Creeper into a murderous Japanese Oni? Why turn Freeze into an autistic serial killer with no sympathy? It just changed old shit for the sake of changing. There was no evolution, no progress.

Not really related to comic books, but a weird prophetic moment in popular culture.

In the pilot episode of the original Star Trek, Captain Pike was captured by aliens that caused him to experience totally real illusions (think The Matrix) that were often influenced by his own memories. They have a woman there as well, and are trying to get them to breed so that they can create a human population on the surface of their planet through whom to experience life because they themselves have become physically weak.

Anyway, two of the female officers from the ship are beamed down and likewise captured, because the aliens think perhaps he just doesn't like the woman they first offered him.

The first woman, speaking to his first officer, says, "what? He'll choose you? He may as well marry a computer!"

They ended up redoing basically the entire crew, and the only major character who stayed was Spock. In subsequent episodes, the actress who played the first officer actually was the voice of the computers.

What's more, Captain Pike ended up a quadriplegic, trapped in a metal case with a light on it that he could blink once for yes or twice for no, essentially "married to" a computer that was his only way to interact with the outside world.

In Supergirl in the 90s, The Spectre was able to reach back into pre-Crisis Continuity, and in Convergence Brainiac was able to use the Vanishing point to do the same.

Thus, DC seems to show that even if a universe stops existing, as they did after COIE, they can still be reached by a being that is powerful enough (Spectre) or knows the workaround (Vanishing Point).

Alright. I'll get home in about two and a half hours. Keep the thread alive til then and pray to Superman there are still seeders.
How can I upload the 100 page pdf explanation of hypercrisis?

What about the before aspect? Like these came before the big hand according to how they were explained and all contiuties so far always have thr hand at the beginning so none of those are universes from before just alternate tinelines or realities.

The Hand created the multiverse, but physical universes were destroyed in COIE, but Brainiac and Spectre could still mess with those.

Sounds like a description of what the Gentry do.

I am asking about Relics universe that existed before the hand. How does that work? All the other stuff makes sense except that one thing.

What I don't understand is, how did Vertigo become its own universe after Infinite Crisis/52 when it was always shown to be part of the New Earth's continuity during COIE? And before the Merge of worlds was Vertigo part of Earth 2's history, because there's the connection between Dream and Wesley Dodds, unless the Endless transcend universes.

That's more a case of someone in charge not understanding what Vertigo was in relation to the mainline.