Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
I would be insulted if someone kowtowed to me and told me "Oh here, we made Falcon white so you can have a white superhero." like no, motherfucker, I don't want your fucking damaged goods.
I found a simple solution.
Stop reading capeshit. Marvel and Dc are doing whatever they can to get people talking about them, before it was killing their heroes now its making them minorities.
/thread
Because wholly original characters don't sell. With Riri, this way if she proves popular enough, she can be spun off into her own series and identity once Tony Stark returns.
If you'd like to prove them wrong, then buy Mosaic, one of the rare books being launched by the big two starring a completely original character.
>New Black Lady Iron Man
Oh neat
>Bendis
Nope.jpg
>now
DC was doing this back in mid 00s and the 90s
we've been saying this since spider-man, no before all that. they will never learn op.
I'm more upset that any time there comes time for diversity, they just add in a black person instead.
It's not just a cape thing. It's a media thing.
Because it's less expensive to just make an existing character a certain race/gender/sexuality/etc than it is to actually come up with an original character that happens to be that race/gender/sexuality/etc?
Something like that, anyways.
Don't bring DC into this, mousecuck
Because niggers start fights and white people are too chicken to finish them
back to Sup Forums
I dunno, man. You've got Chulk, Robbie Reyes, Sam Alexander, Kamala Khan... the black ones tend to get the most attention, but I think that's just because they're the highest profile ones (Spidey and Iron Man, and FalCap, if he counts).
It's not really a media thing, or even a Marvel thing. It's a Bendis thing.
It's been awhile since I've actually bought any capeshit comics (Not including Invincible) So I'm with you on that.
I will look this up.
>p-please don't insult my precious company, they can do no wrong
The Big Two are shit, capecuck.
As a black guy, I don't get why they just don't use the black characters currently created? Most of them aren't doing shit, so why not use them? Or create new original ones.
>actually caring about Ironman comics
>actually giving Bendis attention
Nigga what are you doing?
Arab Dr Fate
Arab GL
Pakistani Ms Marvel
Korean Hulk
Yup, because I would rather originality than repackaging I am a Sup Forums.
I thought Sup Forums was love.
Black basketball player turns out to be inhuman, powers allow him to possess other people.
I give it 12 issues.
They didn't change anybody though. And it wouldn't matter if they did.
You clearly don't read comics
Legacy characters have been a thing for decades
>now its making them minorities.
>now
DC did this to about dozen characters back in the 00s and 90s.
And unlike marvel now, they "permanently" killed off some of the originals, like Ollie and Ted.
...
Duke.
It's not like Hulk/Ironman/Cap sales are steller
This actually boosts sales
Whor sells better than male Thor
Kamala sells better than Carol ever did
>DC
Duke .
Because you're not satisfied
push orginial character->complain about pandering-> push old character->complain about pandering/why not use my fav Z lister -> push character to replace legacy like dozens of others before them-> complain about tumbler agenda->start from top
You cape fucks aren't happy and just looking for reasons to go Sup Forumsumbler.
And if they don't boost sales, you can bring the originals back and trumpet their return for a sales boost.
Win-Win
They're doing neither atm. They even brought a white character back to replace his black replacement.
Riri is an original character though, she'll just be putting on a familiar suit of armor, it's not like Tony Stark suddenly transformed into a 15 year old afro girl.
Who did Duke replace?
Yeah, Larkfags are triggered because black youth usurps that title.
You're arguing with someone who doesn't actually read comics
Its too bad mosaic is doomed to die. Regardless of its quality its got no chance. The last new minority cape character to be succesful in a solo book I can think of is spawn.
Damian sells better than Duke.
True, but they don't need to call her "Iron Man".
Tweak the armor and call her something else.
She's not going to be Iron Man. She's just making her debut in that book.
Names matter
No one will give the book a chance otherwise
Yeah cos robbie reyes and the question don't exist. Wally west was a figment of our imagination like earth 2 green lantern and hawkgirl.
But they do need to call her Iron Man or else nobody else will care.
Robbie Reyes is a marvel character though.
Double Checked em
In all fairness, I don't read these comics because they are iro man titles and written by Bendis, but even I know that Riri isn't a race/gender swapped character. I'm just trying to help that user see this too.
Were you this opposed to a title being passed around when Monica was running around calling herself Captain Marvel? Honestly this doesn't bother me at all, a name like Iron Teen would be acceptable, but her using the name that everyone accociates wuth the armor makes sense too.
Damain is Bruce's partner as far as the company and most of their creators are concerned, it's just one influential writer who doesn't seem to agree with it and there in lies the entire problem. If Duke was Bruce's legacy or the new hit then he'd be the one starring in Super Sons and Teen Titans, if he was interesting enough he'd have been going up against Rose and Slade, neither the company nor the creators can draw any mileage from him in those circumstances. So he'll be a token character in Batman while run around in a dumb looking costume in All Star.
But does that have to do with minorties or more because the medium is largely ignored?
How many insanely popular characters have there been since then at all?
Deadpool
Harley
The majority new original characters fail or slink off into the background. Even the white ones taking up an old mantle don't have a guaranteed path to success. Nor are they always remembered. Who here is screaming about "the first" Captain America? Or thunderstrike? Anyone going ape shit when war machine really was in the Iron Man seat?
Well, there's a difference between replacing a white character with a minority character, and turning a minority character white. To illustrate the difference, it helps if you check your privilege.
No, seriously, this is the sort of thing that "check your privilege" actually refers to before Certain People started using it as a strawman against any social justice information they don't feel like understanding.
To elaborate, minorities live in a notably different social context from whites. Being white is seen as a "default" state by society, with any minority group being an exception to the rule. This can lead to actual people in those minority groups feeling alienated, as if they're not "really" part of society, especially if all they see in the media is white people.
This was even more prominent in the times when superhero comics were beginning to take shape, when overt racism and sexism was the norm, and nearly all characters were white males. Because many of the genre's most popular heroes were conceived around that time, they were almost all white males as well, and the few who weren't had a tendency to be highly stereotypical. While society has changed from those times and bigotry has fallen out of style, the genre has a tendency to reuse old characters instead of making new ones. They do make new characters, but those are almost never as popular as the classics.
However, many of those characters are legacy characters. Their superhero identities aren't unique to them, but passed on from hero to hero throughout the ages. This gave comic creators a way to include minorities while keeping their iconic heroes. This can be good or bad in execution, but as a premise it works and makes sense; there's nothing keeping the Green Lantern Ring from passing to a black man, or Tony Stark from making an Iron Man suit for a black woman.
Oh christ I got my mexicans mixed up. You know who I mean the blue beetle. Is it jaime.
Wow feel racist now. Also hungry for mexican food. Id go ti tijuana flats but no dinero.
This. Or don't buy or discuss these kinds of books and try to influence others to do the same
Remember: Your outrage ultimately gives Marvel more money and proves Brevroot is right about fans
When did I say insanely popular?
Invincible is a success but I wouldn't necessarily call it insanely popular.
I like that they literally made her She-Prowler but that wouldn't sell so they call her Iron Man.
>check your privilege
I wait with bated breath for nobody to understand a word of this because of their white victim complex making them honestly feel like they now get some proverbial short end of the stick.
That's if everybreply doesn't HAPPEN to be from a minority.
It's not OK, it's just a cheap business tactic.
>Changing an existing character is going to cause more headlines than rebooting a black hero no one knows about. Look how much more we talk about Black Iron Maiden vs. Moon Girl.
>Character familiarity. People don't like giving new things a chance, ESPECIALLY if they have to read it. That's why characters like Black Panther have to be introduced via Captain America for people to get to know him and like him and why when something like Ant-Man does well, it's shocking because Marvel didn't think it would. You can cast big actors to help put butts in seats though, hence Chris Pratt and whatnot.
>Copyright laws. Asking someone to make a new superhero means the creator gets modern-day copyright benefits. Marvel does not want to share the profit so they'd rather race/genderbend an existing product to get away with it.
>turning a minority character white.
how often does that happen?
>Being white is seen as a "default" state by white society
Fixed for honesty.
> This can lead to actual people in those minority groups feeling alienated
Because they're aliens.
>>Copyright laws. Asking someone to make a new superhero means the creator gets modern-day copyright benefits. Marvel does not want to share the profit so they'd rather race/genderbend an existing product to get away with it.
How does that law works?
Is it only effective if the character receive a solo book or even if they're part of a team of heroes (like that new inhuman girl in Uncanny Avengers)?
Honestly one of the reasons Spawn succeeded was that they never focused on his skin color and lips and instead just decided to tell a sometimes decent story. I think he had a run-in with the KKK once but that was it, Al Simmons just happened to be black.
>had a run in with a bunch of kkk faggots
>turned their leader black when no one was looking
>let his boys lynch and hang his sorry ass
Spawn was filled with 90s edge, but goddamn if I didn't love that shit. Honestly when I was a little kid I didn't even know he was black until I saw the movie
>Who here is screaming about "the first" Captain America?
Steve?
Isiah Bradley was 1) not meant to be the original Cap and 2) a one-off character for a miniseries. People care a lot about his grandson, though.
>Or thunderstrike?
He's pretty beloved on here, man.
Comics reached a "click bait" level of discussion.
Like, people don't even read and are already mad about the title of an article about the change of a character. It's just fucking dumb. Sometimes I think I'm talking with people who read gossip magazines instead.
Just look to all the "Captain America is Nazi now" shit. Who really reads comics, knows that Hydra isn't a Nazi. Anyone who fucking reads the recent Captain America stuff can guess miles ahead that a cosmic cube should be the cause of this.
Dumb people everywhere.
I don't know about the details but I know that a person who gets their original work properly copyright will receive high amounts of royalties from every appearance of that character. It's often why studios are so persistent in getting a creator to "sell the rights", whether it's "selling the movie rights" (Meaning they only get a one-time payment and no DVD or theater money) or "merchandise rights", etc. If I remember correctly, the guy who made Watchmen got screwed because he wasn't careful with the rights of his works. And then look at the guy who made Winnie the Pooh, doesn't get to see a dime of Disney's product.
Any creations made for Marvel and DC are under work-for-hire conditions, and all rights and profits go to Marvel and DC.
They can choose to give royalties if they want (Paul Levitz and Jim Shooter both spearheaded this at DC and Marvel respectively) but it is not a requirement.
Except the black replacement is still around, making it no different from how Marvel has a white version and black version of all their heroes.
>Just look to all the "Captain America is Nazi now" shit. Who really reads comics, knows that Hydra isn't a Nazi.
If you read comics, you'd know that the Hydra he's part of ARE Nazis. It was in the last issue of Standoff; Red Skull rebuilt Hydra as a Nazi organisation.
Should have mentioned licensed stuff, some Vertigo books characters, Icon books, and a handful of others are not owned by Marvel/DC, obviously.
Nah, it's just a means to a end. This Nazi thing always has been this to Hydra.
Except it is. Marvel either kills off their heroes and replaces leaving the old character to do fuck all. With Wally DC recognized their mistake and are fixing it, they couldn't just completely erase new Wally either
Well maybe they should fuck off back to Nigeria or Pakistan if they're upset about being minorities. Nobody's forcing them to live in white countries.
>Acting like legacy heroes of a different race are the biggest threats to Marvel comics, when everyone knows the true threat is the writing of Brian Michael Bendis
Do you even comics, bro?
they're not 'changing', just piggybacking off of established popular ips as an easier boost to popularity.
presumably it's the same reasoning with supergirl and she-hulk back when they were introduced.
...
Honestly this is only really irritating to me because
a) written by Bendis
b) Holy shit what happened to Lila Rhodes?
You don't need a brand new character, you already have a young, gifted black woman apprenticing under Stark
Even more so, with War Machine's death there is SO MUCH MORE to work with! You have potential character development to build on an already existing character. She can replace War Machine or Iron Man or take up the title Iron Patriot.
There's so many damned options to play with using Lila that don't feel like tokenism or feeding controversy.
Man, fuck Marvel.
White society. Hehe that is truly beautiful.
It all comes down to handouts and how you feel about it.
I personally find handouts insulting while others feel they "deserve" it or even worse, some sort of pride in having gotten it.
I also don't want white people creating or more accurately replacing established characters with "colored" characters as a solution for diversity.
What diversity? It's sill the same people with the same ideas and the same writing, who are these presumptions mostly white people that think they can just manufacture "diversity" as some sort of ego/moral trip and do it properly? This is just moral masturbation on their part.
You want to diversify a medium, you do NOT replace anyone, you add to what's already there, you're going to piss people off when you take away their favorite characters for absolutely no reason other than an assault on the white male archetype in some zero sum game, typical sjw shit.
Then when you get any opposition from taking away beloved things, you use it as "proof" or isms and the need to do more of this reductive take on media.
I hate sjws, who push for diversity while being mostly white, presuming to speak for others because marginalized voices and the philosophy they want to infect others with, particularly minorities creating a weak, helpless, ineffectual mindset.
I hate sjws so much and before anyone accuses me of being white I'm not, sjws are a threat to the advancement and prosperity of minorities.
>It all comes down to handouts and how you feel about it.
>I personally find handouts insulting while others feel they "deserve" it or even worse, some sort of pride in having gotten it.
>
>I also don't want white people creating or more accurately replacing established characters with "colored" characters as a solution for diversity.
>What diversity? It's sill the same people with the same ideas and the same writing, who are these presumptions mostly white people that think they can just manufacture "diversity" as some sort of ego/moral trip and do it properly? This is just moral masturbation on their part.
>You want to diversify a medium, you do NOT replace anyone, you add to what's already there, you're going to piss people off when you take away their favorite characters for absolutely no reason other than an assault on the white male archetype in some zero sum game, typical sjw shit.
>Then when you get any opposition from taking away beloved things, you use it as "proof" or isms and the need to do more of this reductive take on media.
>I hate sjws, who push for diversity while being mostly white, presuming to speak for others because marginalized voices and the philosophy they want to infect others with, particularly minorities creating a weak, helpless, ineffectual mindset.
>I hate sjws so much and before anyone accuses me of being white I'm not, sjws are a threat to the advancement and prosperity of minorities.
If the reaction to Cannon Busters is any indication people just aren't okay with minorities period.
I'd agree but given Marvel's recent track record they it doesn't look too good. They constantly switch out previously established heroes with brand new ones just to make a quick buck off of controversy. If they did logical legacy heroes this would be fine, but they just want to feed off of outrage and don't care about making a good new generation of heroes because we'll have status quo in a month
Honestly you ask me its lose lose unless you're white or totally cool with mostly white heroes.
There's no gradual introduction of new minority heroes. They'll come, fail, fall into obscurity, and die.
Fact is you either race swap legacy characters thus alienating white fans or gradually try to make new minirity ones that are doomed to fail. Or just leave it as is. Enjoy the hero as just a hero and accept they're gonna always be mostly white. If your cool with that cool. If not...oh well too bad. Cos white people give less than half a shit about what minorities want. Theyve stated here plenty that as the majority of comic readers (as they claim) its basically whites who should be pandered too.
I hate when people do this.
They told me to go to pol some time ago. I went and saw I am very different from them. As much as I am from you.
But here isn't even a strong indicator of who is buying the comics or what.
Character "replacement" is just a cycle of capeshit. Only difference is Marvel is diversifying the replacements beyond hetro white American male yammering on about big footsteps to fill.
I thought we never knew his race until long into the run. Spawn did pretty well mostly because the edge and something fresh.
Then what do you define as success/popular? One of the things about the big two is that they trash titles that would be considered hits by any other publisher.
I use the insane term because that is pretty much the only way a character has a chance of coming back instead of falling off into obscurity.
I'm going to assume you're not American or a retard.
Because the entire fucking foundation of US is built off melting pot where you can come over with 5 cents and end up with 5 million.
I hope this is pasta. Because the level of maturity/objectivity discussion you're aiming for in this post just doesn't exist here.
Shhh. Don't let Bendis know about established characters you like. He'll terrible things to them. Just wait to he gets distracted by something shiny and hope the next author wants to develop on them. Here, I've got Arno stashed away in this box! You can hide Lila in there too until the Bendis storm calms down.
Kamala also bothered to build up a supporting cast and world that are equally interesting and important as the superheroics while Carol got stuck with KSD. Granted, creative direction for Kamala's book is now beholden to what the more important writers cook up for her, but it was fun while it lasted.
Couple of design tweaks and it's a solid, if somewhat bland, superhero costume.
Honestly, I mainly just saw a chance to say "check your privilege" and have the actual meaning of the phrase be a relevant and valid point.
Because brand new characters with no relation to any sort of legacy tend to flop hard as all hell.
Superhero comics are zombies living off the dead past, selling to zombie institutions like comic book shops. Of course they can't introduce characters without a pre-existing name.
Star Wars has an easier time of it because they have all these generic titles (Jedi Knight, Stormtrooper) that can be filled by any person of any race.
>I don't read comics
Yes, just like Barry Allan and Hal Jordan
ignore this post
misread the one I replied to
Shitting on Jaime is retarded to begin with, but you just made yourself look even worse. Holy fuck. Never post here again.
>I'm going to assume you're not American or a retard.
So, if they're not American, are they still retarded?
The problem effectively arises from overly long legacy. Most media runs on multiple franchises with different settings, different casts. Comics are stuck in one shared universe per publisher with neverending character arcs running for decades.
Anyone else trying to make their content more diverse would just add some minorities in the cast of the next work they produce after that one concluded. But capes lost ability to do it the easy way.
>Why are people OK with changing characters to make them minorities instead of giving minorities characters to call their own?
Because we know how well original characters sell these days, white or not.
Honestly it's not even that I like her that much.
It's just a far superior option to making a very similar original character without the background and options.
>the Bendis storm calms down
Until he dies, goes senile or quits the storm will rage. He's not going to get fired, unless he fucks the CEO's daughter.
>changing characters to make them minorities
You do realize that that woman isn't Tony Stark, right?
You're absolutely right, but normies who care about this kinda thing won't buy a book called "SIF: GODDESS OF THUNDER" or "IRON WOMAN" or whatever.
But they WILL buy a book that has the same name as that movie they liked. It's all about marketing to people who don't really like comics, and it works.
because characters are more than codenames and powers and using legacy names helps them stick around
He's fucking harmless in the grand scheme of things
Also Damien still exists
>"IRON WOMAN"
That's not a superhero name though, that's a command.
This isn't a chatroom you fucking mongoloid
Nobody cares what you had for lunch
Wally fucking West was a delinquent black youth for 2 years before they retconned it.
Helena Bertinelli is still black.