>In the geek pantheon, the comic “Batman: The Killing Joke” has an almost sacred place: A one-off written by Alan Moore, it’s almost as revered as “The Dark Knight Returns,” ....
>But somehow, the movie (which opens today), at least in its treatment of Batgirl, has gone very wrong, and at an otherwise cheery San Diego Comic-Con, a screening and panel on “The Killing Joke” turned into a real mess.
>Apparently the expanded role for Gordon, who is the librarian daughter of the police commissioner, involves her dressing up as a way to attract Batman, having sex with him, and then getting shot and paralyzed by the Joker. The paralysis part has been part of the “Killing Joke” mythology — which exists at a side to the usual Batman story, a bit like the Gnostic Gospels — and it’s been controversial among feminists. (Moore has nearly disowned the comic, and is not proud of the way he treated her.)
>But by giving Batgirl, portrayed almost like a daughter to Batman in much of the standard story, a sexual relationship to him, the filmmakers have complicated things. And even though she takes up more space in the movie than in the comic, she now plays two stereotypical roles in the plot: She is both a sex object (for a paternal figure usually presumed to be much older than her) and a female victim whose injury drives the plot but leaves her high and dry. The fact that Batman seems to snub her after their romantic encounter doesn’t help.
>A Joker cosplayer asked the writers why they would downplay Barbara Gordon, such a strong female character, and make her story more about the men in her life... the writers insisted she was still a strong female character. Konrad ... himself sarcastically shouted, “Yeah, by using sex and then pining for Bruce.”
>That’s when co-screenwriter Brian Azzarello seemed to put it all out there. “Wanna say that again? Pussy?” he asked.
>A report by The Hollywood Reporter adds some context to the heated discussion:
>“I don’t think she’s pining over Bruce at all,” said Azzarello. “She’s pining over the violence.”
E>xecutive Bruce Timm acknowledged “it’s complicated.”
>“I actually like that in that opening story both Batman and Batgirl make a series of mistakes and then it kind of escalates, because Batman kind of overreacts and then she overreacts to her overreaction,” said Timm. That’s a very human thing.”
>“There’s clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it’s there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its’ there in the Adam West show,” said Timm. “It’s subtle, but to me it’s always been there.”
>Azzarello has a reputation for being contrarian and cantankerous at times. It’s entirely possible that he was reacting to the way the comment was made—shouted from the crowd by a writer who describes himself as frustrated with the film—and not just the content of the remark itself. But, whether he felt he was being heckled or not, his response is crummy. Even if Azzarello disagrees with fans’ reaction or feels attacked, to be so dismissive sours the relationship that fans have with Batgirl, the filmmakers, and DC as a company. The creators can stand by their creative decisions, sure, but they don’t have to be assholes about it.
Noah Richardson
So how long until Sup Forums starts defending the sex scene and everything else as quality because the Great Enemy agrees with them? Sup Forums would call the sky being blue a SJW lie if they had to.
It wasn't that bad. it wasn't great but heaven forbid you portray a character as flawed.
Thomas Williams
>five seconds of barbara taking her shirt off >"sex scene" please.
Jace Diaz
Azzarello is such a sad sad human being. Needs to learn when to not be a big fucking cry baby when he gets criticised, he acted like a 12 year old kid there.
Levi Jenkins
Killing Joke is probably the best story in DC history, bringing the keks and feminist assblast time and time again.
Jeremiah Johnson
>Moore has nearly disowned the comic, and is not proud of the way he treated her.
This implies that the reason Moore has disowned the comic is because he feels bad about the way he treated Barbara which is blatantly false. He disowned the comic because he thinks capes are stupid now.
Ryder Perry
>this is my favourite story because it makes people I don't like angry
You have to be 18+ to use Sup Forums.
Jeremiah Hernandez
>“There’s clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it’s there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its’ there in the Adam West show,” said Timm. “It’s subtle, but to me it’s always been there.”
Timm, shut the fuck up.
Levi Mitchell
>geek pantheon Stopped reading there.
Caleb Evans
>Timm, shut the fuck up.
You mean that deranged pervert asshole with crushing women issues Azzarello?
Ethan Davis
This is a non-issue. The "sex scene" is about four frames of Barbara taking off her shirt.
Her attraction to Batman is not the only reason she's Batgirl nor is it at all the focus of her side story. It's actually quite a nice little foil to the main plot with Batgirl meeting something of a Joker-light, their relationship mirroring Batman and Joker's albeit compressed.
If you're upset about the side story you're either an idiot who doesn't understand the difference between comics and films or a whiny brat. If you're upset about the "sex scene" you didn't watch the movie. If you're upset about other people being upset about the "sex scene" you should grow up.
Stop giving these vultures hits.
Ayden Gomez
>>“There’s clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it’s there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its’ there in the Adam West show,” said Timm. “It’s subtle, but to me it’s always been there.”
So basically "They were my OTP when I was younger and now my fanfic is canon!"
Levi Hall
Go back to bed Azzarello
Julian Thompson
>now I see you're unfamiliar with BTAS, Justice League, and basically everything Timm has done.
Get out.
Juan Cruz
I mean, the sjws are all freaking out over meaningless shit as usual, personally I just thought the film was too short and didn't have good focus.
Jace Gomez
Instead of just having a Batgirl story, at the very least have her origins story in there somewhere. Just "following batman for 3 years" is pretty weak.
I felt the film would have been much stronger if it showed Dick leaving and Bruce taking in Babs just to try and replace Dick. But Babs is unfit to be Batgirl because she didn't have that drive of tragedy that Dick had. She just did it for fun and then add in all that sexual tension and stuff.
Parker Williams
He didn't add that shit till Beyond and now doesn't mean right now at this very fucking moment.
Gavin Reyes
>Salon
So, overexaggerated bullshit spun in a way that it's "oh so creepy and vile against women"? Why can't bad flick just be bad?
Ryan King
But having Dick around and making it her origin wouldn't fit thematically. The whole point was that the Babs story simultaneously established her in the minds of the audience so her paralysis would have the required impact and mirrored the relationship between Batman and Joker in the story proper.
Ryan Robinson
His exact quote : > I’ve never really liked my story in The Killing Joke. I think it put far too much melodramatic weight upon a character that was never designed to carry it. It was too nasty, it was too physically violent. There were some good things about it, but in terms of my writing, it’s not one of me favorite pieces. If, as I said, god forbid, I was ever writing a character like Batman again, I’d probably be setting it squarely in the kind of “smiley uncle period where Dick Sprang was drawing it, and where you had Ace the Bat-Hound and Bat-Mite, and the zebra Batman—when it was sillier. Because then, it was brimming with imagination and playful ideas. I don’t think that the world needs that many brooding psychopathic avengers. I don’t know that we need any. It was a disappointment to me, how Watchmen was absorbed into the mainstream. It had originally been meant as an indication of what people could do that was new. I’d originally thought that with works like Watchmen and Marvelman, I’d be able to say, “Look, this is what you can do with these stale old concepts. You can turn them on their heads. You can really wake them up. Don’t be so limited in your thinking. Use your imagination.” And, I was naively hoping that there’d be a rush of fresh and original work by people coming up with their own. But, as I said, it was meant to be something that would liberate comics. Instead, it became this massive stumbling block that comics can’t even really seem to get around to this day. They’ve lost a lot of their original innocence, and they can’t get that back. And, they’re stuck, it seems, in this kind of depressive ghetto of grimness and psychosis. I’m not too proud of being the author of that regrettable trend.
The comic was damn near perfect, why change anything?
Nicholas Anderson
On the adaptation : > As with all of the work which I do not own, I’m afraid that I have no interest in either the original book, or in the apparently forthcoming cartoon version which I heard about a week or two ago. I have asked for my name to be removed from it, and for any monies accruing from it to be sent to the artist, which is my standard position with all of this…material. Actually, with The Killing Joke, I have never really liked it much as a work – although I of course remember Brian Bolland’s art as being absolutely beautiful – simply because I thought it was far too violent and sexualised a treatment for a simplistic comic book character like Batman and a regrettable misstep on my part. So, Pradeep, I have no interest in Batman, and thus any influence I may have had upon current portrayals of the character is pretty much lost on me. And David, for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway.
Nathaniel Flores
Go away, Rich. Heckling is not criticism.
Blake Williams
just have some fastforward or time skip to show how good she is. She's better than Dick in fighting, detetctive work, and everything else anyways.
I just felt there needed to be something more to connect babs and bruce. The movie played out like 2 separate TV episodes. Hence having her replacing Dick in the beginning would at least give Batman's sense of responsibility to his soldiers and more of a father/daughter relationship as well.
And I am disappointed the sex scene was too short and showed nothing.
Kayden Martin
You got some Barbara bra action. Brabarabrabra.
James Green
It seems SJWs are after Azzarello now, and even providing their own revisionism. Some other guy shouted in the middle and wouldn't repeat himself after being asked to. Azzarello called him a pussy after that. But for SJWs, it was for criticism.
Also, Batgirl wasn't like a daughter to Bruce when TKJ was made. She was in her early 30s during that period, before they de aged her to make Dick and her an item.
Brandon Jenkins
The sky isn't blue
Carson Watson
>She was in her early 30s during that period, before they de aged her to make Dick and her an item. Wait wut? I always thought Babs and Dick were always around the same age.
Cameron Rogers
tl;dr, Timm's insatiable desire for older guy/college girl action has finally bit him in the ass.
Grayson Peterson
>jackass makes a publically rude comment that could have been handled a million other ways to be more productive >another jackass responds rudely to said comment, again that could be handled a million other ways to be more constructive and productive
>only one of these people is a mysognyst ignorant asshat who deserves death at the stake for "fridging" (let's be honest it's not that severe) a female character/enabling timms shitty ship
Facism is cool as long as it's in the name of "good" right?
Blake Harris
>user, the side story is important in creating an emotional connection with Babs and as a foil for the events of the main plot >HURR JUST SKIP AND SHOW SHE GOOD AT FIGHT
Jason Walker
Condense your damn threads. Use the before making a thread. Read the existing threads. Fuck.
Brayden Lopez
They needed 30 minutes of Bruce on Babs fucking. Not 2 seconds.
Caleb King
>emotional connection with Babs
Considering everyone thinks she comes off as an insane bitch in this version, that clearly failed.
Jack Campbell
>In the geek pantheon Four words in and they've already convinced me to disregard whatever they have to say.
Nicholas Green
>The paralysis part has been part of the “Killing Joke” mythology — which exists at a side to the usual Batman story, a bit like the Gnostic Gospels — and it’s been controversial among feminists
I still don't understand this bullshit, she was a much better character in a wheelchair than she ever was in a batsuit. I guess because it predated sjw shoving minorities/cripples/deviants into roles its some form of female shaming to em.
Cameron Walker
>gizmodo >salon
Brayden Scott
>everyone thinks she comes off as an insane bitch lol wat? Project much?
Isaiah Carter
The theater I went to last night was packed and everyone clapped at the end because Americans.
The only people that care are just gay, because I definitely got turned on.
Connor Rogers
I'll criticize it for the right reasons not for sjws reasons which is what most are doing
Evan Robinson
>does not take no for an answer in an obvious danger situation/something she is not ready for >hatefucks her boss >fights crime for fun
Jace Bennett
Yeah, if the sky was blue, how come its black at night? Checkmate, atheist!
Noah Williams
>almost kills a guy because he pushed what she thought was her boyfriend into some crates forgot that part
Logan Nelson
WE WUZ SKY
Landon Collins
Really Moore? You don't particularly care for the direction comics have gone, despite the fact that you were part of the force that drove it there?
What an ass: you had a chance to write Batman comics, you gave us this grimdark status quo, and now you tell us "oh if I could do it things would be different".
Brandon Perry
what did I just read
Leo Evans
>people can't develop or change their opinions over time The "status quo" of comic books has rotted your brain.
Luis Richardson
Protip: They can be the same thing.
Poor writing is poor writing. Having to defend it or change your argument so you can still call the people who agree with you wrong for pedantic reasons is childish.
Ryan Moore
People can change and develop their opinions over time, I'm not making some tu quoque argument here.
What is Moore currently doing to reverse the grimdark status quo he unleashed on comics and is here deriding? Providence?
Moore made a name of this shit, is doing nothing in his body of work to reverse the course, instead CONTINUES in that same vein, and STILL says it's a horrible thing.
Hunter Sullivan
Bab's paralyzed soles was the best part
Blake Brown
>says cape comics are bad for trying to make mature stories with characters created for children >makes outright porn starring the girls from The Wizard of Oz, Peter Pan, and Alice in Wonderland He's just crotchety.
Lincoln Hall
>user, the side story is important in creating an emotional connection with Babs and as a foil for the events of the main plot except that's obviously not true because it wasn't necessary in the comic
Andrew Evans
>“She’s pining over the violence.” It was this. She didn't do it for Bruce but for the thrill of being out in tights and fighting crime.
Julian Rodriguez
Pretty sure the story places her after Death in the Family. At one point after Joker appears, it shows Bruce in the cave. And I think you can see Jason's bloody form on a screen. It also shows Ledger's joker sitting in the jail cell. Both done in the movie's art style
Owen Butler
Comics are not films. Comics, especially cape comics, are built on the context of previous issues and continuity. You're making something for the initiated that doesn't need to stand wholly on its own; it can work off of the emotional connections established in previous works.
Films must stand alone.
Bentley Edwards
>turned on >cartoon literally just shows her bra Jesus user, I know you're not going to go outside but look at porn or something
Ryan Peterson
I like how you had to get rid of every meaningful detail of the story so you could get to that vague hypothetical.
Tyler Turner
It's not the graphic level of the scene so much as the entire subplot of Batgirl stalking, fighting, and fucking Batman.
Like...not only did Timm shove his favorite and everyone else's least favorite ship into a movie that didn't need it, but the new scenes were to make Babs more active and give her a larger role in the story. Instead, it became "oh no! Gordon's daughter and Batman's wannabe girlfriend got shot!" rather than just "oh no! Gordon's daughter got shot!"
It improves nothing, adds fuel to the sexism/fridging accusation fire, and is based on a pairing that no one except Bruce Timm likes.
Elijah Davis
And yet TKJ is top selling as a standalone graphic novel and considered an essential first read for people with no knowledge of Batman in comics.
Julian Johnson
>Batman's wannabe girlfriend got shot! Except it wasn't that. She wasn't Batgirl at that point. Joker didn't know she was Batgirl. Batman hadn't talked to her since she quit being Batgirl
Isaiah Collins
>entire subplot of Batgirl stalking, fighting, and fucking Batman. A scene is not a subplot you massive waste of skin
The plot is about Barbara's relationship with Franz and her growing obsession with him, Batman, and crime fighting nearly leading her over the brink of insanity.
Austin Phillips
He tried to make comics adults could appreciate rather than "comic fans". The industry interpreted this as grimdark=money. He gave up on comics after that, and now only writes them when the money is too good to pass up without caring about the content.
Caleb Stewart
>make her story about the men in her life >HER story How the fuck is KJ her story? She's a ridiculously small character in it.
Gavin Hughes
...
Aaron Robinson
>professional writer yells out a bar brawl level taunt at a heckler during a panel at one of the largest, most visible conventions in the country while discussing an incredibly unpopular moment in the film he wrote >only SJWs would find this unreasonable!
jesus dude, go outside once in a while
Brandon Gray
I never really understood why that is. If you don't know or care about Jim and Babs there's not all that much impact there.
Gavin Richardson
>The paralysis part has been part of the “Killing Joke” mythology — which exists at a side to the usual Batman story, a bit like the Gnostic Gospels — and it’s been controversial among feminists
Why would it be controversial? The story is supposed to be fucked up, it's about the Joker, a bad guy, doing bad guy shit. It's not like they had a fight where Joker won just because he's a man, he just shot her point blank. Are women just aren't allowed to be hurt anymore or else it's sexist? This is stupid.
Jaxson Gutierrez
>having problem with banter what a pussy
Benjamin Scott
If this film doesn't expect you to already know the context of the relationships of the characters then they should have spent time establishing the Batman and Joker dynamic, which is infinitely more important to the movies story and climax.
Levi Evans
>banter >professional at a panel advertising his movie should engage in bantz >only SJWs who hate banter would have a problem with this
I've run events, the only time you conduct yourself like that is if it's a late night panel or a comedy show, otherwise you deserve everything you get
Jason Rodriguez
But the film DOES establish the Batman/Joker dynamic. That's literally all the main plot is about.
Justin Thomas
I'll wait for the Armond White review desu
Logan Nelson
Fair enough, I get the point he's making.
Heck, it's not like I don't enjoy his on-going works, Providence is out of this world, some of the best post-Lovecraft Lovecraftian horror I've read.
Nicholas Gray
Porn is gross. Narrative > naughty bits.
Parker Cooper
She should have moved to an easier place than Gotham if she wanted that but couldn't keep up the pace.
Jason Ortiz
But she could keep up. She got to into it which is why she quit.
Gabriel Brooks
Keep your protips, they won't be necessary this time.
Ethan Hughes
>couldn't keep up the pace Christ, did anyone in this thread actually watch the fucking thing?
She quits because she nearly kills Franz. She sees the abyss Batman kept telling her was there.
Jackson Lewis
Does anyone have a clip of when Azzarello snapped at the comic con panel?
Jack Powell
That counts as not keeping up. Betraying your principles is not keeping up.
Joshua Jackson
She didn't betray anything. Go watch the movie
Liam Nguyen
>otherwise you deserve what you get because of the zeitgeist. Which I don't approve of. And you don't have to be a sjw, I never said that. You can be a soccer mum, a christfag, a prude, a stiff, etc, etc.
Jaxon Ross
But she would have, so she had to stop. She couldn't keep up the pace.
Henry Russell
But she didn't lol
Andrew Walker
You can also be a professional. An adult. Professional creators don't call fans they disagree with pussies in front of roomfuls of people, the same way professional actors don't flip out when they don't get the Oscar, the same way news anchors have to be very polite when they try to question interviewees on their bullshit.
You don't have to be a prude, christfag, feminist, stiff, etc to assume professionals will ACT like professionals. Banter doesn't belong everywhere.
Leo Phillips
>animated batman films that were better
Year One TDKR Under the Red Hood Bad Blood
So it's pretty good overall.
Isaac White
No clip of it yet, apparently Azzarello called a BC reporter a "pussy" because he couldn't hear the reporter repeat a question.
Alexander Nelson
>You can also be a professional. An adult. Let's be honest with ourselves here. No one involved with creating comics and cartoons is really an adult. Especially the people like ourselves who take these creations so deadly serious.
You have no business talking about behaving like an adult. And neither do I.
Robert Miller
You're basically saying you have to behave in the way others want you to to be accepted as an adult. Nigga, giving in to peer pressure is a child thing.
Austin Cruz
holy shit someone needs to get a clip
Brandon Hall
No, when you're at an industry/fan event running a panel for the explicit purpose of advertising the thing you got paid to work on, you're an adult and you act like one.
Adulthood doesn't mean you put away childish things like comic books, it means you know when to behave like a man instead of a manboy.
>You have no business talking about behaving like an adult.
As I said (although anecdotes mean nothing on a Uyghur community chalk slate), I've run events. I know when you behave like an adult and when you cut loose. There's the right time and the wrong time, and you don't get to bitch about being treated like an idiot if you cut loose at the wrong time.
You may as well post that Zen Pencils comic about going against society's expectations and becoming a viking.
I'm not talking about crushing, Japanese-style conformity here. I'm talking about having enough tact and restraint not to yell out barroom insults at someone who questioned your work in front of a room full of fans you're addressing in a professional capacity.
Jonathan Ortiz
>in a professional capacity Do you understand that some people want to change what is included in "acting in a professional capacity"? How do you think that happens? A petition?
Owen Russell
This is what autism does to people. Let this person be an example to warn others.
Alexander Fisher
That doesn't make sense, Babs showed to Jason's funeral in a wheelchair in the comic.
Ryder Diaz
He called the reporter a pussy because the pussy couldn't contain his SJW autism and decided to heckle the panel in the safety of the crowd.
