Whedon is lazy

So at the end of a series of well-received movies, we have the following status quo:

>Banner is on the run and in love with Betty Ross
>Tony Stark has been traumatized by the stress of all his adventures
>Tony Stark has decided to retire from being Iron Man at Pepper's request, presumably War Machine will take his place
>SHIELD has been disintegrated due to HYDRA infiltration
>everyone thinks Nick Fury is dead
>Captain America saved the world from getting taken over by HYDRA by destroying all of SHIELD's Helicarriers, but devotes his time after that to searching for his lost friend; the events of the movie have seriously shaken him

Then, suddenly, in Joss's Age of Cucktron:

>Banner forgets about Betty and wants to fuck Black Widow out of nowhere
>Tony Stark is as quippy as ever even after he releases a killer robot that nearly destroys the world
>Tony Stark is back in the Iron Man suit with no explanation and no follow-up on what happened with Pepper and Rhodey
>SHIELD turns up with a brand new Helicarrier out of nowhere and thousands of people to operate it
>Nick Fury is alive and showing his face in front of everyone
>Captain America is le quipman and doesn't even mention Bucky

So despite shitting all over the other movies at every turn seemingly with no resistance, Joss Whedon still thought he was being unfairly constrained by Marvel and threw a bitchfit anyway> What a lazy fucking hack. Thank god that the Based Russos somehow tied all this shit together in Civil War.

Other urls found in this thread:

marvel.com/captainamerica
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Civil War jettisoned stuff too though. Like suddenly Wanda's Jean Grey mindfuck powers are gone and her having a brother is never mentioned. The writers refer to the events of AoU a few times but only very vaguely, it would be exactly the same plot if AoU never happened.

People making their own movies don't want to acknowledge other people's movies.

They also forgot Ant-Man learned a lesson about prioritizing his family.

>What a lazy fucking hack.
Yup. I've been saying this for twenty years.

Bruce Banner and Black Widow makes me sick. I don't even know who's fault it is. Whedon is just the director.

>Like suddenly Wanda's Jean Grey mindfuck powers are gone

She had to get close and make her opponent stand still while unaware to use them to give people nightmares. Mindfucking wouldn't have been a huge help here, so it makes sense why she didn't do it.

>and her having a brother is never mentioned

She has a shrine to Quicksilver in her room.

>The writers refer to the events of AoU a few times but only very vaguely, it would be exactly the same plot if AoU never happened.

The whole reason the "Civil War" happens is because Iron Man gets confronted by the mother of someone who died due to his actions in Sokovia, and he feels really guilty about it. He wants to repent for the events of AoU, which convinced him that the Avengers need oversight (well, that Stark, Banner, and Wanda do). Otherwise he'd be his same "fuck the authorities" self. Also, him choosing to become Iron Man again in AoU led to Pepper breaking up with him and him getting even more unstable. Also, no AoU means no Scarlet Witch or Vision.

>People making their own movies don't want to acknowledge other people's movies.

Yes, but at least the other MCU directors and writers make an effort. Joss just entirely forgot about all the movies he didn't make and forced the Russos to pick up the pieces. Then complained anyway.

>SHIELD turns up with a brand new Helicarrier out of nowhere and thousands of people to operate it
Watch agents of shield :^)

>>Captain America is le quipman and doesn't even mention Bucky
He did he mentioned he and falcon were still looking

>Watch agents of shield :^)

But it's not canon to the movies

Then how did fury get the helicarries ;^)

Do you think Age of Ultron actually happened but there was a huge cover-up so we don't know about it?

>hey, get me a helicarrier, stat!
>OK

Wheadon wrote both Avengers films

>She had to get close and make her opponent stand still while unaware to use them to give people nightmares. Mindfucking wouldn't have been a huge help here, so it makes sense why she didn't do it.

In AoU she was seen mindfucking Sokovians from a distance and making them leave their homes.

The Civil War team was like, that's a story breaker power when robots aren't involved, and she never had powers like that in the comics anyway, so they politely ignored it as Joss's old man hallucinations.

>Otherwise he'd be his same "fuck the authorities" self.
Actually, I just re-watched every MCU movie to date and I'm pretty amazed at how Stark is consistent towards the whole series (except in-between Iron Man 3/AoU although that did get lazily explained in CW). The whole scene with Stark and the Senator wasn't so much as Stark going against authority as him believing he's legitimately the only good person to handle his own technology. All during the first movie, Tony keeps railing that he was in the weapon industry because he wanted to make the world a safer place. Then he finds out that his weapons are sold to terrorist and shit happens so he becomes Iron Man in another effort to protect the world. By not trusting the U.S government, Stark shows that he is afraid that his technology would get in evil's hand. Which was even justified by footage of Hammer trying to replicate the technology and selling it to terrorists and later on, with the senator being an Hydra agent. Joining the Avengers was just another step in wanting to protect the world and that leads directly to the creation of Ultron where he believes a giant AI could do the job. Obviously it goes bad and it makes him realize he's as much a treat as anyone else and riddled with guilt, he agrees that the Avengers would need an exterior supervision.

Every single movies is just another step for him to realize he can't always do things his own way. He can't constantly endure this much hardship and that he needs peoples to work with him in order to do good. Tony is a soon-to-be broken man that you can't let unsupervised.

She never had telekinesis either

This.

No one follows the "continuity" of the movies.

Yeah but her "probability" powers did a lot of the things her powers do in Civil War, even stuff that has nothing to do with probability, like levitating things.

Calling it TK is a reasonable MCU version of her confusing comic powers. But the mental powers were just out of nowhere because they needed someone to give the Avengers bad dreams.

>Criticizing Whedon for ignoring things from previous movies
>In the same breath going "based Russos"
The confirmation bias on this board is obnoxious.

I'd say the biggest differences CW made were turning Wanda into a meek victim and completely ignoring Scott's entire motivations.

>The Civil War team was like, that's a story breaker power when robots aren't involved, and she never had powers like that in the comics anyway, so they politely ignored it as Joss's old man hallucinations.

Considering how the only scene where she displayed mass ranged mind control lasted all of five seconds, and creates many plot holes even within that movie, this was a wise decision.

In Winter Soldier the three helicarriers that were shot down were brand new, they weren't the one from the first Avengers movie.

There's also this whole thing they've been hammering since the end of Avengers, which is his overwhelming terror of complete alien invasion. It was all over the god damn place in Iron Man 3 and in AoU it hit back against Wanda when she tried to mind-fuck him, which led to her doubting her own cause, and it appeared to be a major contributing factor to his position in CW.

>Widow gets captured
>Clint is the only one freaking out
Come on Bruce. I thought you liked her. At least act worried.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever read.
>Tony Stark has decided to retire from being Iron Man at Pepper's request
Sup Forums has been repeating this casual non-sense for several years now.
The last words of the movie are 'I am Iron Man' and frankly there's very little 'Iron Manning' taking place in Iron Man 3 for Pepper to be complaining about. He didn't even have a mainstay suit at the time, the one that was marketed for the movie was a prototype that was broken for 3/4 of the film.

Pepper was butthurt that he spent all day making doomsday suits for every possible scenario because of alien paranoia.

AoU posited that he wanted to bow out, hence his creation of the Iron Legion and his experimentation with AI. Civil War implied that since none of those things worked out he couldn't stop being Iron Man.

>presumably War Machine will take his place
In your imagination.

>SHIELD has been disintegrated due to HYDRA infiltration
This never changed.
>Nick Fury is alive and showing his face in front of everyone
If you think Cap didn't tell the other Avengers Fury was alive you're retarded.
>Captain America doesn't even mention Bucky
Mentions him at the beginning of the movie, and he and Sam remark on cold leads.

Can't be bothered to acknowledge the rest, especially the Betty Ross thing which seems like you're just upset the movies aren't following your fanfiction.

I feel like one thing the MCU had done really well is deconstructing Tony Stark's playboy billionaire persona into a lonely PTSD-afflicted, guilt-ridden superhero.

It really is the problem of a growing narrative. Because these films come out so rapidly, they have to pick and choose what they want to continue and develop. And with actors like Pawltrow or Taylor not coming back just to be love interests for Tony and Banner, they have to write around them. There are too many actors involved and it's almost impossible to give them all shining moments and keep them on the same schedule.

Though Nick Fury coming back is bullshit. There was so much potential with underground Fury, and they just waste it.

I'm not sure why more folks didn't criticise these points in AoU. Whedon practically ignored anything that occurred in Phase II.

>Banner forgets about Betty and wants to fuck Black Widow out of nowhere
That shit was really the straw for me, he so craved a contrived tragic romance portion of his shit script he forced whatever was left on the table. Tony and Pepper were a thing already, Thor mentioned Jane, Cap couldn't budge until Peggy kicked the bucket and killing her off to pair up Natasha would be a bad idea, he could have went with Clint but since he thinks he's too clever to go with the most likely pairing he's too clever by half and married Clint off. That leaves Banner, except as you said anyone with a fucking brain should recall that Banner is in a situation like Steve where he can't be with his woman but as such he'd rather be alone if that's the case.

Joss, being Joss, decides he's too important to care about consistency and decides fuck it, the two of them are horny teenagers now. Despite all their experience and problems and all that they're just rearing to fuck the closest available person. Said person has to be on the Avengers team otherwise the drama of the ship won't sail, so haul anchor and hoist the sails we're off!

You know if he really wanted to be the subversion clown he so clearly thinks himself to be he could and should have had Quickshit romance Natasha up so the tension between Him, her and Clint synergizes and since Quipsilver dies at the end there's no need for that cringe as fuck rejection scene. Plus Wanda and Natasha would get a tragic death to connect them. Hell Queefsliver's death could even be less retarded by having him go after Natasha, who is rightfully engaged in the battle zone, instead of random Mother's random son who's randomly left behind for Clint to pick up. It all just sorts itself out.

But no, we get the Zucchini instead.

>Like suddenly Wanda's Jean Grey mindfuck powers are gone

They're not. Every material I've seen on her for Civil War states she still has those powers.

>and her having a brother is never mentioned

Did you miss that part where Clint refers to him?

>In AoU she was seen mindfucking Sokovians from a distance and making them leave their homes.

None of them were actively avoiding her telepathy and/or attacking her.

>Every material I've seen on her for Civil War states she still has those powers.
Side material saying something doesn't mean anything.

>Side material saying something doesn't mean anything.

>Side material

Straight from Marvel's site for the movie (pic related).

marvel.com/captainamerica

>powers and abilities

>mental manipulation and telekinesis

Whedon mentioned in some interview he deliberately made AoU ignore anything that happened in the other phase 2 movies and made it so you only needed to watch Avengers 1 to understand AoU

(You have to remember most people only watched Avengers and only the hardcore fans watched everything)

Or another suggestion : Widow (with everyone's else approval) was manipulating Hulk into a romantic relation in an attempt to better calm him when he hulks out. And his departure from the team would have been explained by him finding everything out. It would even enhance Widow's double agent aspect and remind the audience that she's still a spy above everything.

>Widow gets captured
>Expects a cool sequence where we would see her evade her prison, rejoin the team and give them intelligence about Ultron's hideout
>She just calls for help and wait for everyone else to save her
What the fuck? Wasn't her whole thing being an escape artist?

>Wasn't her whole thing being an escape artist?

Nah, her thing was assassination and espionage. Even with the whole 'rescue me' thing, she at least was able to give away Ultron's HQ.

.. Even though the Maximoffs could've done that.

He literally ignored everything that wasn't his fanfic, wrote terrible romance and OOC shit instead

This was the original version. It was changed because either test audiences or Marvel execs (or both) didn't like it.

A website is side material.

If it's coming from the people who make the movies, why would it not be viable?

Some intern probably made that.

The screenwriters or directors didn't personally type up that, there was probably a note sent down from marketing telling the intern what to write.

It's "from the same people" in the same sense that AoS is. Websites are put together by some nobodies the studio hires for the website alone. The directors and writers themselves don't bother getting involved.

If something isn't in the work itself, it might as well not be there at all.

Regardless, I don't think that Wanda not using her telepathy means she doesn't have it anymore.

I don't even know why you've humored those anons so long, her manipulation of the Mind Stone to affect Vision's density was her telepathy.
This discussion should have ended

>SHIELD turns up with a brand new Helicarrier out of nowhere and thousands of people to operate it
This, at least, was explained in Agents of SHIELD.

source?

>I don't even know why you've humored those anons so long
>her manipulation of the Mind Stone to affect Vision's density was her telepathy

I forgot about that, actually.

I shall kindly fuck off now.

AoS is complete shit, though. Nobody should be expected to watch that.

>Nobody should be expected to watch that.

I thought nobody was. Haven't the movies actually contradicted the shows on a regular basis? Don't they really give no shits about what goes down in the shows?

You're not expected to watch it. That's why . But if you want to know why a SHIELD helicarrier randomly showed up, the show about SHIELD probably would have that answer. If you don't really care then you can continue ignoring it.

Season 3's finale was better than Age of Ultron.

>Haven't the movies actually contradicted the shows on a regular basis?
No, I don't think they did.

>Haven't the movies actually contradicted the shows on a regular basis?
Nope. The only contradiction is the fact that Avengers Tower isn't in the Daredevil and Jessica Jones skylines, and that's just because they had relatively low budgets and didn't want to spend any of it on a cgi easter egg. Even then, they're contradicting the movies not the other way around.

>Even then, they're contradicting the movies not the other way around.

Oh. That's.. interesting. So the shows are not canon, but just in a way I wasn't expecting.

The shows are canon, but like any universe ever there's holes and contradictions in the canon.

I didn't realize this was such a new idea that people don't get it, especially on a comic book board of all places.

Well, she uses TK powers because that's most effective for non-lethal fighting. She could rip Iron Man to pieces but she's not out to kill.

She uses a hex sphere on Crossbones and a hex bolt against Rhodey.

She boost jumps twice on screen and twice off-screen (to get to Cap when XBones is about to boom, and when saving Bucky (and Panther as well when you think about it).

Note that she struggles with the mook in Lagos yet is fine against BP and Widow, and the control tower she holds up in contrast to the bomb in Lagos.

Its all about self-confidence, her arc is about self-belief. Wanda is "meek" because the loss of her family, and her home, means her confidence and self-worth is derived from her powers...and she's scared she can't control them. So she's feeling very low.

She's shy and talks to people one on one but not in a group. She would only follow a Cap-led team.

You would be amazed at what some people don't (or won't) comprehend.
It's nothing new, there's self-contradictions in the Bible that some people won't admit exist.
In these Sup Forums cases, more often than not, someone wants to prove themselves right about something and latching onto a little mistake and blowing it out of proportion is the easy cheat to that end.

Canon debates make a good bait apparently.

Why do people care about canon status in expansive universe written by committee I will never understand.

How do you know it was telepathy?

Surely it would have to be a greater power than something as weak as telepathy.

Maybe its faded away. I hope so.

Busiek all the way

>How do you know it was telepathy?

Because MIND Stone, and I don't think she would've been able to manipulate it with telekenisis. The best she aught to do with that would be to rip it from his head. Not make him increase his density.

>Maybe its faded away. I hope so.

Why would it? There's no reason why it would or should. And I hope she uses it again. If they don't get his shit fixed in Black Panther's movie, then I'd like to see if it's Wanda's powers that help fix Bucky's mind.

what are you talking about?

I'm saying maybe this is based on a true story.

Wasn't this whole thing done while Johansson was heavily pregnant? Think I read somewhere they had to cut back on some scenes because of that, resulting in the capture scene.

Civil War screwed a few characters over just like AoU did (Ant Man and Hawkeye not thinking about their families) but at least they fixed Tony's and Steve's arc....

he did mention bucky

>Like suddenly Wanda's Jean Grey mindfuck powers are gone and her having a brother is never mentioned

This is especially annoying since she blames Tony for indirectly killing her parents but when Tony's death bot directly kills her brother she doesn't care. Oh and her country was also destroyed and more people died

There is literally no justification for Wanda not wanting to rip Tony's head off

IIRC, Wanda was horrified at the destruction Hulk and Iron Man caused while Hulk was affected by her powers. It makes sense that she wouldn't want to use them in an offensive manner again.

why is whedon such a scapegoat these days

>everyone thinks Nick Fury is dead
That's wrong though. Cap and Widow knew. It would be expected that this informaton would be shared with their Avengers teammates.

>by destroying all of SHIELD's Helicarriers
Also wrong. He takes out the project insight Helicarriers, three specific dangerous HYDRA weapons that had just been built.

>SHIELD turns up with a brand new Helicarrier out of nowhere and thousands of people to operate it
It was implied to be the same one from the first Avengers movie, which is why Fury says it's "dusty". It was an older model one with actual propeller blades.

>Nick Fury is alive and showing his face in front of everyone
He shows his face only to the Avengers

Everything else you said is true, but more of a question of Whedon's style that you don't like compared to someone else's, not a factual inconsistency.

>Hydra could be anyone
>Let's tell everyone their greatest enemy is still alive
No

>he doesn't know about Theta Protocol

>he doesn't know who Fury's old friends are

>he doesn't think Whedon is an overrated hack

>and her having a brother is never mentioned
Actually this part is why Hawkeye goes to save her and is so attached. Remember he says "I had a debt" when asked if he was up to it

"Theta protocol" might as well be fanfiction for the amount it's referenced in the movie. Someone who has only seen the movies is expected to see it as most likely the old Helicopter from the first Avengers movie, and Fury's "friends" as the people crewing the Helicarrier.

And as for your first point, are you actually saying you think its reasonable for Fury to expect Tony or Thor might be HYDRA?

>(Ant Man and Hawkeye not thinking about their families)
Didn't both of them literally bring up their families? Wanda's like "what are you doing here" and Clint's like "disappointing my kids" since he knows the situation is big.

Also I think Steve says something to Scott about how he would be outside the law and Scott says something and accepts it

Clint was the one who encouraged her to join the Avengers, and he knew that Pietro would not want Wanda to be alone in the world and also because he felt it was the safest place for them.

I think it has affected her, its why she is so uncertain and has low self-confidence.
She literally has nothing.

She feels ambivalent toward Tony. He did not bomb her parents, but he made the weapons, he made Ultron, but she triggered him doing that and naively worked with Ultron.

Yep.

i really hate whedon for starting this meme

Because he posted a tweet of himself and Anita.

There's similar throwaway lines in AoU for all the things OP mentioned, too.

I genuinely believe that whole subplot was based on Whedon seeing the gif.

hm???

test

They truly do emulate the comics well in that regard

>Directors cut could help since apparently scenes of the teams not quipping and just genuinely talking were cut along with a few explanations
>When says no, cause the version that came out in theatres should be how people see it
What kind of fucker prefers the butchered version?

He has a weird autistic problem with remixes and alternate re-releases.

He also probably didn't want to get involved with Marvel Studios any more.

Yeah, fuck that guy for trying to have a character on the team whose power is more than just explosions, Amiright? We just need more shakycam action scenes.

>Tony Stark has decided to retire from being Iron Man at Pepper's request, presumably War Machine will take his place
No, this did not happen. Literally the last words of Iron Man 3 were "I am Iron Man"

>>Captain America saved the world from getting taken over by HYDRA by destroying all of SHIELD's Helicarriers
No you autistic fuck. He only destroyed THREE PROTOTYPE helicarriers

>Banner forgets about Betty and wants to fuck Black Widow out of nowhere
He moved on and found someone he connects with. He hasnt seen Betty in seven years

>Tony Stark is as quippy as ever even after he releases a killer robot that nearly destroys the world
Yes that is his personality. He was still serious about stopping Ultron.

>Tony Stark is back in the Iron Man suit with no explanation and no follow-up on what happened with Pepper and Rhodey
See the above autist

>SHIELD turns up with a brand new Helicarrier out of nowhere and thousands of people to operate it
Agents of Shield

>Nick Fury is alive and showing his face in front of everyone
Ok and?

>Captain America is le quipman and doesn't even mention Bucky
He is in a more relaxed environement than TWS hanging out with his bros. Of course he's gonna quip. He also talked to Sam about Bucky at the beginning of the movie

>People are now unironically defending Age of Ultron and saying it's good

I hate you people, I'm thankful as fuck that you people aren't in charge otherwise every movie would have a quip every 30 seconds

Avengers as written by Sup Forums:

"Are you a big guy, Banner?"
"For you."

It's only going to get worse
Remember that whole >MUH SISTER IS DA KEY bullshit in Buffy.

>makes creative choices you disagree with
>lazy

Whenever anyone uses "lazy" as an insult in a situation like this it proves they know jack shit about writing. (Or about effort, or about words generally)

Whedon worked himself to near madness trying to make this movie, as is evident from all interviews and inside reports. In his mind he was trying to live up to the first movie, trying to make this one different and personal, and trying to meet all of Marvels constantly changing demands regarding which characters to use and plot lines to set up.

Did he succeed? No. The movie was a train wreck. Does this suggest lack of effort or sincerity? No

Here's the thing you need to get through your 13 year old skull: artists fuck up. A good writer, doing his best, will inevitably write something shitty from time to time. This doesn't make him a hack because hack means someone who is indifferent to quality, not striving for it. It doesn't make him lazy, because as we all know this poor shmuck went even BALDER trying to make this movie. It makes him a good artist who failed this time.

Criticize the movie, not the man. Or if your going to criticize the man, say simply this: he tried and he failed. Not out of laziness, but out of the sheer fact that he made the wrong choices.

Amen.

Artists are not infallible. I suggest people try writing a story themselves, then you will see how tricky it is. Its very hard to write dialogue and Whedon's tendency toward quippage is likely a means of avoiding cliche.

There's so much action in AoU where there should have been story and character, and we know Joss favours the latter so go figure where that comes from.

Without Whedon there would have been no Tom King Vision, and Scarlet Witch, whom he fought for, would likely still be in limbo or would have been permanently killed off.

Agreed on the artists make mistakes point. For every amazing Big Lebowski the Cohen Brothers have a shitty "Intolerable Cruelty" or "LadyKillers"

An artist can duck up and not be "lazy." In fact I would argue they have to fuck up sometimes. 1 because they're human and 2 because that's what happens when you try new things

>SHIELD turns up with a brand new Helicarrier out of nowhere and thousands of people to operate it
That was weird as hell watching that in the theater.