I think I realized why the DCEU has been a disappointment at best, failure at worst so far. The problem is Superman. In pretty much every other incarnation of the character (inb4 NOT MUH...), despite skepticism by the public, the world is a better place because Superman is there. However in the DCEU, Superman being on Earth has directly or indirectly caused nothing but tragedy.
-accidently signaled Zod and brought him to earth. (OOPS) -got Congress blown up -didn't bother to move Zod's ship from the middle of the city which allowed Doomsday to be created - Lex signaled Apocalypse to invade earth using Zod's ship.
I know DC/Warner is on the course they've set right now, but I wish they'd just wait a few years and hard reboot the universe. What do you guys think?
Joseph Bailey
Superman being dour and sad and boring is certainly a large problem in the DCEU but it's secondary.
The main problem, very simply, is poor executive decisions. Snyder was not the right director for Superman films. Goyer was not the right scriptwriter. They were bad choices.
Mason Gutierrez
Yeah I'm sure everyone would have loved the film if Superman was closer to your fantasies
Nathaniel Robinson
Not saying that. But it probably would have been better received if they took his characterization from almost any of the comics from the past 50 years instead of the sad, mopey Snyderized vision of Superman.
Parker Reed
Why doesn't Supes interact with any of the people he saves? There's no dialogue like "don't worry I've got" or "no thanks necessary" they just extend their hands towards him while Hans Zimmer horns blare in the background.
Dylan Baker
Because Snyder is a hack
Andrew Phillips
No reboots, mulligans do overs etc. Stick with something and own up to it. So fucking sick of the lets start over bullshit.
Also why the fuck can't Superman have doubts at the outset of his career? Why the fuck can't he eventually grow into the Superman we know of? So sick of the fucking "not muh" bullshit. Everything has to be status fucking quo all the time. that shit bores me i have seen it before.
God forbid they attempt something ever so slightly different even if they don't hit the mark with it.
Noah Lewis
>that shit bores me i have seen it before This. Unfortunately it has been proven time and time again: people really do just want the same shit over and over. People are comforted by familiarity.
Jayden Carter
>God forbid they attempt something ever so slightly different even if they don't hit the mark with it.
I'm not going to give the movie a "You Tried" sticker when it fucks up on this level. It's not an elementary-school art competition, it's a fucking movie and execution matters at the end of the day.
If Zack had pulled it off everyone would be singing his praises as someone who did something bold and new and dynamic. But BvS was a colossal writing failure, so he didn't.
>YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING TO BE THE SAME
I want it to be good. Whether that's by keeping the status quo or going in a bold new direction, I don't care. But the end quality is what matters most.
Andrew Price
>fucks up on this level 90% of the biggest complaints about the movie are "WAHHH, BATMAN KILLS" and "BOOO, SUPERMAN IS SAD". That's not objective criticism. The rest range from people being too dumb to follow basic plot progression, or not being able to read even the shallowest of subtexts in a characters actions.
Matthew Mitchell
They could easily have done something new and different without shitting all over the core aspects of the characters.
Austin Scott
>That's not objective criticism
Of course it's not, there's not such thing as objective criticism. Everyone's personal criteria for criticism is informed by their experiences and personalities.
> "WAHHH, BATMAN KILLS" and "BOOO, SUPERMAN IS SAD"
Both of those were done poorly. i agree the whining about it can get childish, but we had a movie where Snyder's bloodlust and love for Batman produced a character directly contradictory to the story he was telling and he reduced Superman to a plot device with characterization replaced by dime-store symbolism.
Bruce Willis in Unbreakable was a depressed, insular person who was afraid of what he could do and how it could affect the world, but M Night still managed to find some time to actually characterize him and give us reasons to care about his arc. Depressed and sullen characters can still contain multitudes as long as you fucking write them as people.
Blake Thomas
>reboot the universe Why not just retcon BvS and SS out of the continuity and keep Man of Steel? MoS was a pretty good movie, and while I agree that it's too grimdark, that's perfectly fine as long as the sequel movie is lighter and more boy-scout ish to show the contrast between Superman's origins and Superman being an established hero. Give us a proper MoS sequel, a film that introduces Batman without dwelling too much on his origins, WW, Flash, etc and then Justice League.
Leo Reed
>Why the fuck can't he eventually grow into the Superman we know of? Fuck you, that's what you said at the end of MoS
Alexander Watson
You don't know a single thing about storytelling.
Parker Bailey
Sup Forums in a nutshell. Why should we expect a board dedicated to reading capeshit comics and watching children's shows to actually know anything about storytelling?
Luke Kelly
>hopeful superman is a fantasy
It's your edgy-god-Superman that's the fantasy. Hopeful Supes is the real thing.
Xavier Nelson
>It's new and different! Being different from something that's good and successful doesn't mean you will also be good and successful.
Eli Jenkins
I have NEVER seen a defense of the DCEU that didn't rely heavily on the courtier'ss reply fallacy and at this point I doubt any even exist.
Nathaniel Nelson
Why he never fucking smiles,Jesus smile all the time. I am hoping that en Justice League he will come back with long hair flying graciously from the sky smiling with the sunlight falling in his shoulders or something like that.
Logan Morris
I wish you people learn how to talk without buzzwords. then maybe you could be taken seriously. ah well
Michael Walker
There was one moment in the Smallville fight where he caught a solder falling form a helicopter and said something like "are you okay". Then it just went back to blowing shit up
Nathan Rodriguez
>Apocalypse Fucking casuals.
Julian Hill
>Anything I dislike is buzzwords. Yeah you have room to talk.
Ryan Richardson
Yes, user, all the criticisms of the script and editing and direction don't exist, everyone is just an idiot who didn't get Snyder's genius.
Aaron Jones
I would go through the laundry list of the buzzwords you DCEU apologists use on any given day, but I'm not a raging faggot like that.
Liam Reed
People just say "BAD SCRIPT" and "BAD EDITING" and "FUCK SNYDER". I've heard a few legit criticisms, because they certainly do exist, but 90% of it is just people parroting shit to sound like they know what the fuck they're talking about when they actually don't and are just cranky because "NOT MUH SUPERMAN"
Benjamin Watson
>"NOT MUH SUPERMAN" I've never heard anyone say that before. You're certainly an original thinker. Not like those DCEU haters.
Carson Bell
Oh please, negro. Don't pretend like every motherfucker out there isn't salty over the fact that Superman didn't wink at the camera while saving a cat out of a tree. Because they are.
Thomas Davis
I'm mad that they're jerking off Batman again. I'm tired of him.
Luke Clark
Why bother reading this thread at all? Sup Forums is one of the shittiest boards to talk about movies. You are talking to an idiot that probably asks why Superman called his mom "martha".
They can't accept this movie doesnt focus on the brightest days of superman but in his struggle. This superman is their superman too, it's just that the movie choose to show the hard part and not the easy victories. The fact this movie has us looking at superman doubting himself doesnt mean this superman doesnt smile when he saves cats, it just means that stuff wasnt footage worthy. That belongs to MoS 2.
The movie isnt about Superman saving the day, is about Superman facing doubts and a Batman that is not longer a hero.
Ethan Taylor
>I'm mad that they're jerking off Batman again. >I'm tired of him.
But they didnt. you are mad Batman won the fight. You are just a fanboy.
Easton Howard
>It gave us an incomplete look at the character why is everyone acting like it's incomplete!?
I just think it's pretty telling that the movie shares so many elements with JLA: The Nail. And even more telling that you Sup Forums tards don't even know what that is.
Jaxson Bell
That's what Superman does. You don't fucking change the original superhero and make all dark and broody for the sake of teenage marketability without some backlash.
You want an edgy Super-god? Why don't you wait until they make a Supreme movie instead of supporting WB shitting on the paragon.
Asher Bailey
>you have to bring outside context into the movie! That's not how movies work you fucking faggot
Easton Baker
>that hair REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Nathaniel Barnes
>But they didnt. you are mad Batman won the fight. No, I'm mad he was in the movie at all. And that he's the sole former of the Justice League. I'm mad that WB's only real tactic has, is, and always will be "Stick Batman in it. If we can't, make the characters as Batman as possible." They've been doing this for fucking years. Whn everyone was complaining that their space opera superhero movie was a mess of three different scripts, mediocre CGI, and took far too much time on earth with boring romance arcs, they heard the problem with Green Lantern was that it wasn't dark or edgy enough (their words, not mine).
Starting a TV universe? We can't use Batman? Better use Batman-lite! And then lo and behold look what the third show was. Batman before Batman!
Batman winning the fight it this movie was obvious from the second its title was announced. That was a given, because he's their sacred cow.
I just want something else. I want Shazam or Booster Gold or hell even Aquaman. Batman is a meme that's been run into the ground harder than rickrolling. But you're not going to accept that because you're still busy dickriding the character.
Eli Lee
This. He okayed Batman killing because of a Dark Knight Returns panel. He wants to do this middle school philosophy shit and just shove it in everyones face, but its just not fucking fun to watch.
Honestly, Nolan having as much free reign as he did probably fucked them over from the beginning. It got Goyer in, made Snyder try and emulate a better filmmaker, and delayed their universe by years while they rush to emulate what little success they had with the Nolan trilogy and play perpetual catch up.
>we will never have George Miller's Justice League with Flash being the protagonist
Brody Green
daily reminder that was the only time Superman saved anyone while wearing his suit besides Lois Lane for the entire film, and first half of BvS.
Adam Smith
Most importantly the only reason they were given the job in the first place was because WB had to rush a movie out to keep rights.
Every other time this happens it ends badly and yet we're supposed to think this case was special because of kino memes.
Owen Nelson
But that's the point you dumbass, you don't need more context than what you watch. When you start saying why he isnt saving cats, you start the argument not muh. He does all that shit, it is just not in the movie since there's no need of that.
It barely shares anything with the nail, but if it does share something is the impact superman has in the world and in Batman.
>daily reminder that was the only time Superman saved anyone while wearing his suit Did you miss when he saved the 7 billion people?
Isaac Taylor
The entire DCEU feels like missed 3 other movies leading up to it
Justin Diaz
>“I was surprised because that’s the thesis of Superman for me, that you can’t just have superheroes knock around and have there be no consequences.”
Adam Ortiz
>It barely shares anything with the nail, >Paralyzed guy campaigning against superhumans because he was injured in collateral damage >Batman kills because because Joker killed Robin > Superhero is framed for the destruction of a government building > Lois has a subplot uncovering the conspiracy >Lex works with and then betrays the government, making a kryptonian.human hybrid that the heroes need to team up to fight. > Jimmy Olsen dies
I guess you're right. There are no similarities there to anything in the DCEU at all.
Luke King
>accidently signaled Zod and brought him to earth. (OOPS) valid but had to happen else kent wouldn't become superman in that form.
>got Congress blown up Lex was responsible and also lined the inner part of the wheelchair with LEAD so superman couldn't see
>didn't bother to move Zod's ship from the middle of the city which allowed Doomsday to be created Wasn't superman's call or jurisdiction but the US government
>Lex signaled Apocalypse to invade earth using Zod's ship. He communicates to Steppenwolf which is lead to story setup for the justice league movie.
Adam Wright
>It barely shares anything with the nail, but if it does share something is the impact superman has in the world and in Batman. I don't think you fully understand how what you said is so stupid. You're saying that the DCEU, which starts with Superman and in which he is supposedly an influential figure, shares its view of the impact Superman has on the world with a story where Superman doesn't exist to have an impact on the world.
And the sad thing is that I actually agree with that. But that's the problem.
Joseph Flores
>what are references? >what are homages? Fucking retard.
Lincoln Martin
I guess you're right. MoS does share many superficial story elements with the The Nail. Except for of course the tone and overall concept.
Benjamin Clark
>I guess you're right. MoS does share many superficial story elements with the The Nail. BvS you mean.
Ignoring the goal posts you're moving >We're going to "homage" a story where one of the title characters doesn't even exist. If Superman really has an impact on this universe you shouldn't be referencing a story where the entire point is "everything turns to shit because there's no Superman".
You do that, and you confirm that your universe *doesn't have a Superman*.
Anthony Thompson
>Except for of course the tone The tons are pretty similar actually. But you'd have to actually read it to know that
Matthew Lee
He also saved the dude from law and order and his mother.
Andrew Price
If I had a week I couldn't list all of them
Eli Morales
The only thing they have that's close to being tonally similar is the fact the world turns to shit.
And it's a stretch to even think that.
Jason Turner
>Did you miss when he saved the 7 billion people? from something that was because of him what a hero
Lucas Flores
Explain how they're different, then.
Angel Evans
Here's a criticism for you: Superman and Lex exchange about 3 lines of dialog in the whole 2 1/2 hour film.
Noah Rivera
>you don't need to bring in outside context >he does stuff you don't see but it's not in the movie You're a special kind of stupid
Jaxon King
It is, in no small part, because they keep trying to cram two or three films worth of content into each; treating them like a race against the marvel films. and this Imagine if we'd just skipped the superman origins, done a proper Zod movie, then a BvS movie, then a Doomsday movie.
Superman: The Man of Steel Batman vs. Superman (vs. Lex) Doomsday: Dawn of Justice
I'm not saying keep the scrypts. That shit needs revisions from the ground-up, but holy shit superheroes do not work well in any sort of long form structure. Keep that shit short and to the point.
Connor Martinez
>>Batman kills because because Joker killed Robin That's not why he kills. Go watch the movie again.
>> Superhero is framed for the destruction of a government building Superman wasnt framed for the destruction of the building, the point was to make people ask why he didnt stop it
>> Lois has a subplot uncovering the conspiracy That's every lois plot since the 70's
>>Lex works with and then betrays the government, making a kryptonian.human hybrid that the heroes need to team up to fight.
Again, how is that not the standard of what lex does?
>>Jimmy Olsen dies This could be a valid point of Jimmy mattered in the movie, he doesnt.
Those are not plotpoints.
Asher Campbell
One story has an underlying subtext of hopefulness to it. If Kal-El had become Superman in The Nail he would have changed the world for the better. He would have inspired hope.
None of those elements are present in BvS. In fact you could almost argue that it's the antithesis of The Nail.
Jaxon Morris
>>he does stuff you don't see but it's not in the movie
Yes, and that doesnt influence the movie or the story. How can you be so stupid? There's no need for any extra information for the story to work.
Noah Barnes
>If Kal-El had become Superman in The Nail he would have changed the world for the better. He would have inspired hope. Confirmed even harder for not reading The Nail. But just for the sake of argument are you saying that BvS has no hope?
Camden Mitchell
Its okay to like these movies, its just the fanbase for them has gotten cancerous. Personally I think they do a few good things but as a whole theyre a mess and dont warrant high praise
Isaiah Mitchell
>hurr durr but superman does show up, confirmed for having not read it Alright smart guy, what was the Nail about then? How did Superman's big reveal at the end change the concept of "A world without Superman"? How was it anything other than ending the story on a high note?
And please enlighten us with those shoehorned "hopeful" scenes that Zack Snyder threw into BvS because of the backlash of MoS.
Cameron Cooper
>with characterization replaced by dime-store symbolism. But the symbolism is only in the church scene & cross pose in space, it doesn't have time to replace ANYTHING, the regions elements are beyond fucking irrelevant.
Easton James
He does a lot more then just that, this corner your painting him into is far more damaging then anything Snyder has done. >teenage marketability Yes because wanting a adaption that takes it self seriously & in a mature manner instead of just perpetually dismissing the character as for toddlers equals being a immature teen.
Ryder Lopez
>they heard the problem with Green Lantern was that it wasn't dark or edgy enough That was a major fucking problem. It should have been exactly Training Day in space.
Alexander Nguyen
It's a little hard to save individuals when your trying to save the entire human race from extinction.
Christian Moore
The fact that you can take defending the core of the character and state that it's "painting him into a corner" just further cements the fact that you have no idea what the character was about.
You're not a fan of Superman. You're a fan of the concept of a man with god-like abilities punching people through walls.
Jaxson Stewart
That's like saying if a serial killer follows me home after seeing me buy a new car and murders my neighbors out of spite it's my fault and it's unheroic for me to save my neighbors children who run to my house for help.
Daniel Watson
>Alright smart guy, what was the Nail about then? How did Superman's big reveal at the end change the concept of "A world without Superman"? How was it anything other than ending the story on a high note? The Nail has a sequel, you know.
>And please enlighten us with those shoehorned "hopeful" scenes that Zack Snyder threw into BvS because of the backlash of MoS. I'm not even sure what side of the argument you're on anymore. I didn't get any hopefulness out of BvS. Frankly, I'd rather Superman just stay dead. At least that would be actually different.
Isaiah Cooper
Clark's age. And arguably the whole "Wandering the wilderness" element in the beginning. as while Birhtright did it, the context and take aways were far different.
And there's the whole fact that MoS was direct marketed to churches with a sermon written by WB called "Jesus the original superhero" playing up these parallels. But you never seem to want to admit that happened.
Jackson Barnes
>I didn't get any hopefulness out of BvS
I know we should had have Bruce eating burgers with Diana
Eli Perez
I don't think we were discussing a sequel.
I'm also quite sure the user who started this "it's like The Nail" shit is the one who was implying that BvS was hopeful. I was just shitting on him for thinking so.
Ryan Morris
>Also why the fuck can't Superman have doubts at the outset of his career? Why the fuck can't he eventually grow into the Superman we know of?
They promised that for BvS.
They didn't deliver.
Hunter Green
Smiling 247 isn't the core of the character. Saving people is. Whether he saves then with mary sue ease or actually has to struggle & strive to acomplish it doesn't change such.
Robert Bailey
>I'm also quite sure the user who started this "it's like The Nail" shit is the one who was implying that BvS was hopeful. I am that user. I don't think ANY of the DCEU movies are hopeful. Well, maybe Suicide Squad is but I don't care enough to watch it.
Cameron Hughes
Clark's age isn't relevant to the quality of the story ether. The marketing isn't relevant to the quality of the story ether. The religious symbolism has NOTHING to do with the film being good or not.
Ryder Long
>They promised that for BvS. Who is the "they"? Because Snyder never promised it. His fans did. And it's pretty obvious they don't know what they're talking about and will keep backtracking.
Eli Collins
>mary sue ease
Why am I arguing with you? You don't even know what a Mary Sue is.
Jordan Sanchez
>Clark's age isn't relevant to the quality of the story ether. I didn't say it was. I'm just saying it was another Jesus parallel. >The marketing isn't relevant to the quality of the story ether. Still didn't say it was, it's just another parallel. >The religious symbolism has NOTHING to do with the film being good or not. That's kind of bullshit. For the past 3-4 years I've watched you guys talk about how Snyder's movies are like 80% symbolism and you need to read between the lines to appreciate them .You can't run that back now. Symbolism absolutely has an impact as to whether or not the movies are good, because that's pretty much all they have going for them.
Joshua Jones
That guy is in every DCEU thread and I'm pretty sure he's autistic because all he does is whine about camp, mary sues, and Donner.
Colton Jackson
The reading comprehension on this site is the absolute worst.
Ian Hill
>I don't think ANY of the DCEU movies are hopeful.
Okay. We're in agreement on something.
Hah at me coming off as a dick. 3chins is not good for my psyche.
Evan Howard
Don't lump us in with the "kino" retards. They have mostly great performances, incredible action, great world building, suspense, build up, incredible visuals going for them.
Kevin Jenkins
It's a when writers refuse to allow a character to be challenged or fail or to be shown in a flawed light. Hence Rey in TFA being considered a Mary Sue as she can do pretty much anything with minimal practice or effort.
Camden Carter
>the world is a better place because Superman is there.
Is it really? Seems to me Metropolis wasn't being targeted every fucking day by alien invasions and giant collateral damage inducing fights until the blue boyscout claimed it as his home. People come from all over the galaxy to fight Superman, whenever Brainiac isn't trying to put the city into a bottle.
Dominic Gutierrez
No it's not.
A Mary Sue is a self insert side character that is able to get more done than the main character in a fan fiction story.