Who are the best Sup Forums mechs?

I've seen it asserted that the West is incapable of making cool robots...is that true?

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I wish we saw more of these guys...

Exosquad had cool ones.

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examples?

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Well, we were supposed to get a cartoon.

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Personally i think western robots get shit because they aren't as sleek or perfect, they tend to be blocky and industrial. Personally I always preferred the blocky transformers to the visual jargon of the bay movies.

Western artists cannot design a mech that does not look like ass

you fucking wot?

>Pacific Rim
>Gennedy Mechs

You can't say we didn't improve upon it.

>No manes
>Generic zoids
0/10

Is this a toy tie-in? It looks like one.

Why don't people consider the Iron-Man suit a mech?

Traditionally mechs are much larger than a person and piloted rather than worn as armor

does mecha hulk count?

Tony doesn't really ascend to mecha levels till hulk buster armor.

Eh, I'd say no but a decent argument for it counting could probably be made. So I guess it's a borderline case.

I ended up liking Voltron, but thought the Lion designs were a bit meh.

I do like their individual weapons though.

I think the Titan is a good example of iconic mech design. It manages to look modern and retro at the same time.

>Personally i think western robots get shit because they aren't as sleek or perfect, they tend to be blocky and industrial.

/m/ here, I'm honestly of the belief the western/eastern mecha distinction is pretty much a load of bull.

Just take your example.
The original blocky Transformers are Japanese.
The new visual jargon in Bay movies is 100% western cinema and design.

It's just robots are an actual genre in Japan while they're incredibly niche over here so Japanese make a full spectrum of them from hyper-realistic to not-gay capeshit whereas most people ever see more than one western production (which is imitating anime anyway) and think that there's some sort of actual schism going on.

Surprisingly, it's not.

You have not seen enough robots. Japanese mecha run the gamut aesthetically, besides how blocky =/= "industrial".

If anything I've heard what you say dissuade people from robots. They say "this isn't complex enough, it looks like a toy" or something like that even if something like a real car, tank, aircraft, household electronic device, etc. tends to be rather flat geometrically because that's how it works best.


I agree with this man on many things.

Here's my question; why on earth is the USA so averse to robots? People easily gobble up cape shit, magic shit, or mystery shit, but why not some metal?

And when they do, why is it that it's always the same franchises or same problems? Transformers, "Voltron", Power Rangers, etc. People see robots and immediately these franchises come up. Other times you get people saying "why would anyone do this?", "square cube law!", "it's for kids!", etc.

Why the distinction?

Also, why do people say "mech" and not "mecha"? It's an abbreviation of "mechanical", why cut it off further than mecha?

BIG DUO!
ES IST
SHOWZEIT!

DU MUSST STIRBT

NEIN

>meh
At least they do differ from each other when compared to the original anime incarnations.

Original Go-Lion had them all identical sans coloring.

Legendary Defender Lions actually do differ in looks and in functioning.

nanomachines

does this count?

*DU MUSST STERBEN

Man those made awesome toys too.

This is true.

I'm making a mechanical themed boardgame and I'm having to outsource illustration and design to the Philippines because the best the USA can muster is boxy shit, hyper complicated and overdesigned grim shit or gay transformers.

The only western robot designs I usually like are Transformers, and those are usually designed as characters instead of armor.

So perhaps western designers need to think of mechs more like characters in their own right instead of just the weapon the guy will pilot?

But if the mech is a character, what is the point of a pilot?

>mecha

Fuck you, phone.

THE SOUL

it took this long to post him?

He's not a robot
For you

You're lying!

Mecha and mech are not synonymous.

Mecha is Japanese, usually humanoid.

Mech is western and all it requires is a human pilot

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NIGGA DO YOU EVEN DYNAMO JOE?

L O Y A L T Y
O
Y
A
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T
Y

>Here's my question; why on earth is the USA so averse to robots?
They're gay and convoluted, if you're going to have fantastical elements/powers in a show you may as well stick it on a biological/magical character instead of mecha which is already impractical before it starts juggling skyscrapers.

Also, censors won't let living characters be gored to death or blown to bits in mediums marketed toward children or general audiences, but it's fine if that happens to robots, giving the impression they're weak.

So a pile of poorly drawn complete shit is your example of a good design?

Thanks for totally proving my point.

I wonder if a lot of American artists just never got over the 50's and 60's when it comes to robots. They still seem to want to do things like corrugated hose arms, small bars bolted together for arms/legs, and simple geometric shapes for bodies.

They seem to fall back on Rosie, Bender, Wall-E, Marvin, way too much.

Because it is a distinct look which was part of the culture and is cute so it fits for making ones that are not trying to pass for humans or be intimidating.

Still looks like they are holding onto some aesthetic that came along in the 50's. Almost like it has become some kind of tradition.

Optimus Prime and all the G1 Transformers are Japanese, user. They're some other toyline that was bought up.

Which is the point. If you have things where it is a war setting they will be closer to tanks with legs. If it is a domestic servant that is specialized for one task like sweeping up dust and has no purpose outside it, it will have smooth form and lack of features. If it is alien, it will mimic organic structures with pistons and wires and having the feeling of being overwhelming.

When you need a cute robot made out of scraps that is friend to children, the raygun type is ideal.

Well, you know what? Those elitists are missing out. A cool robot shouldn't have to conform to anyones beauty standards. Be they slick and spikey, or boxy and industrial, what matters is what's on the inside. As long as you're not some bag of flesh hiding under armor and pretending to be a robot, you're cool by me.

I'M LOOKING AT YOU, EVANGELION.

The Hammer was so fucking based. It was a wonderful look at the insane amount of money, manpower, maintenance and redundancy would probably be required to have a giant humanoid robot as a weapon.

Objectively wrong. The humanoid form is that which is the pinnacle of evolution, so the farther a machine deviates from it, the worse it is.

>The humanoid form is that which is the pinnacle of evolution
>pinnacle of evolution
>evolution

But that's wrong.
Mecha is simply an abbreviation of mechanical; it means mechanical stuff, right down to shit like your toaster. Japanese robots aren't usually just referred to as mecha, but as robots. If you ever actually watch something like Mazinger or Gundam, you'll notice that the characters don't ever really refer to their machines as "mecha"- Mobile Suits are Mobile Suits. A Zaku is a Mobile Suit. A GM is a Mobile Suit. Mazinger is called a robot, Aphrodite A and Boss Borot are called robots, meanwhile the various automated or semi-automated machines Dr. Hell sends are called Mechanical Beasts.

Mecha need not be humanoid; just look at the Crab Gunner. It's a tank with legs, and it worked. In-series (Dougram) it was a formidable Combat Armor despite its age, and yet machines like it, such as the Tequila, Desert, and Blizzard gunners, continued to be used amongst newer Combat Armor models. Various mecha franchises have non-humanoid robots; Giant Gorg has the colossal excavator type Dinosaur, L-Gaim has Machineries, Gundam itself has a medley of conventional combat vehicles as well as the Zeek wonderwaffen referred to as Mobile Armors. You get stuff like the Ball; simple space vehicles converted for combat use, but in no way humanoid at all.

Where do you get this weird idea that "mech" refers to something different? It's used to refer to the same machines in context every time.

Dude, of course they aren't called "mecha" in universe.

Besides, even a cursory google says I'm right.
Mecha is a Japanese thing. That's undeniable.
And it means giant fighting robot.

Mech is a more western term that refers to things like the machines from MechWarrior.

You ask anyone here, they'll generally agree of the rough definitions I've given.

>And it means giant fighting robot.

Just google that shit on Japanese google and see what happens.
The whole genre in japanese is called "robotto anime."

No really.
メッカアニメ(mecha anime) vs ロボットアニメ(robotto anime).
Put each of them into google and see what happens.

>Machines from Mechwarrior
You do know Battletech is a game made by some Macross fans who were trying to bring those anime to the US?

Why is /m/ called /mecha/ or not /robotto anime/?

The terms are arguably more similar than different, they more refer to a genre of sci-fi or concepts in sci-fi rather than specific machines. The lines have been blurred at least since Gundam came out, because as points out Ball and Guntank are both counted as mobile suits.

At best the Japanese term "mecha" can include or be used as a translation of the term "mech" as well as vice versa.

>logic
Why should a man be able to do those things? That's even worse IMO. Leap tall buildings in a single bound? X-Ray vision? Why and how can this be supported? There is no biological basis for this but it goes unquestioned.

Why should "practicality" be a concern? It's a fictional setting, have fun. Again with the weird aversion thing; some guy using magic to pull off some weird stuff doesn't make any more sense, when you think about it, than a robot doing the same thing. How is a machine weaker than a man if it's destroyed? Are you talking about the old "use robots instead of humans as goons" thing? That still doesn't mean that the robots have to be weak; it depends entirely on how you depict them. If your enemy consists of android goons or mecha piloted by goons then now weak they are depends on how weak you make them.

A cursory google says you're wrong. Wikipedia says:
>The term Mecha may refer to both scientific ideas and science fiction genres that centers on robots or machines controlled by people.
>These machines vary great in size and shape, but are distinguished from vehicles by their humanoid or biomorphic appearance.

Mech (disambiguation)
>is a term used in science fiction for a large, pilotable robot.

I posted an Ottrich earlier. How does that look human? It isn't even explicitly a fighting machine; all Walker Machines save the Combat Mecha, e.g. Xabungle itself, are part-time excavation equipment, the Ottrich especially so. How is anything in MechWarrior different, fundamentally, from what you want to distinguish as "mecha"? They're all just robots. People can refer to any mecha as a "mech" at any time, it doesn't change anything at all. I don't get the line you're trying to draw here.

I still agree with that guy from earlier. There's no real divide I can actually figure out.

Because /r/ was already taken by then.
Look at 2chan, their board for this sort of anime is also called robo (ろぼ).
They even go further in things like Patlabor where the titular robots are called labors since that is the translation of the original Czech word that was adopted into English to signify, well, robots.

It's been blurred waaay longer than that dude, even Mazinger had non-humanoids. Animal shaped Mechanical Beasts or other vicious machines have been a staple of MOTW mecha shows.

Like most words, there are no harsh lines.
Sometimes there are grey zones that both belong and do not belong to the general definition.

To most people unfamiliar with Gundam or Macross or other "robotto anime", they'll say "mecha" are giant Japanese fighting robots. Generally humanoid.
Of course in the actual anime involved, there are robots that are not humanoid and are not called distinct from the ones that are.

Just google image search "mecha". If there was a common theme, what would it be? Giant Japanese humanoid robots. There are some that are not, obviously, but far more that are.

What happens when you google image search "mech"?
Western sci-fi war machines of generally less humanoid, but not necessarily, design.

I'm not talking strict definitions. I'm just saying what the world generally felt to mean.

>Here's my question; why on earth is the USA so averse to robots?

It's actually kinda weird because people have no problems with robots in video games.
A lot of vidya has tons of robots all around the place. Heck, it's hard to think of a Sci-fi RTS that doesn't have any and series like Mechwarrior used to be AAA properties of the highest caliber back in the day.

But the point of my post has been that that sentiment doesn't make a lot of sense, they're fundamentally the same thing.
If anything the google test you put out here is evidence of this; it's Google here in the states showing how people draw a line that isn't really there, at least not on any solid or verifiable basis.

>tfw user uses an image you posted yesterday to explain Big Guy and Rusty to Baneposters.
I don't know how to feel.

Okay Sup Forums, here's a different question. Look at this image here. If you -didn't- know this image was related to an anime in any way, shape, or form, where would you have guessed it came from?

Man, somewhere, in some alternate universe, there is a Starship Troopers adaptation done by the Exosquad development team.

>I'm not talking strict definitions. I'm just saying what the world generally felt to mean.

Look, man. I don't want to sound rude but I've never really heard of that destinction, not even online.

People always called them robots. Pacific Rim was a movie about giant robots, so does the theme song of Megas say the eternal phrase "Chicks dig giant robots.", whenever I talked to friends about these, no matter if it was my old Mechwarrior game or TTGL, it has always unanimously been a cool giant robot.
Heck, Saints Row 4 even parodies it with the protagonist calling this power armour they have a robot while the mechanic desperately tries to explain that it's a power armour and that's something else entirely.

>that is the translation of the original Czech word that was adopted into English to signify, well, robots.

[citation needed]

>They even go further in things like Patlabor where the titular robots are called labors since that is the translation of the original Czech word that was adopted into English to signify, well, robots

That's actually really neat.

I think I latched onto Gundam because it's what I know best, I'm not altogether knowledgable about the history of Japanese science fiction prior to the late 70's/80's. I think a key difference between mecha fiction which came out post-Gundam was that there was now a subdivision within the genre between Real Robo and Super Robo. Divisions such as that formalized the genre, whereas before I think one could argue that Mazinger's Mechanical Beasts could be classified as being similar to Kaiju (but then again, a counterpoint would state that Mecha had already differentiated itself as a genre way earlier with Tetsujin 28, if I'm remembering correctly either Mazinger or Getter Robo subverts genre conventions established then).

I think the difficulty of talking about mecha as a genre of science fiction in America comes about because our own genres divide sci-fi into camps like Military Sci-Fi or Space Opera. Gundam and most real robo shows like it would fall squarely into this category (although clearly there are limitations to this assumption: can you imagine Eva being counted as "military"?), while Super Robo might be shuffled into Space Opera (again: Big O clearly doesn't belong there despite being Super Robo). This is why many reviewers found difficulty in describing Pacific Rim in terms other than "like Transformers".

Anyone else just use mecha as the genre and mechs for the suites themselves across most lines?

I only have the wiki link for Rossum's Universal Robots, but the word "robot" is derived from Czech "robota", meaing "forced labor". It's not inconceivable that the "labor" from "Platlabor" came from RUR, as that play is incredibly influential within early science fiction.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R.

>[citation needed]

I actually happen to be fluent in Czech.
Není to až tak divný, kdýž si uvědomíš, že dokonce takovej dolar je ve skutečnosti přebraný slovo z Českého tolaru.

Yeah, the kaiju thing makes a lot of sense, in-series Mechanical beasts are just called kikaiju.

I'm not sure if "real and super" is a good divider either really. It separates some stuff by tone and appearance, but arguably it's all robot nonsense again in the end.

Voltes V plays well into that second point; technically the Voltes team is part of a military establishment, but would you really call Voltes a military show?

Fundamentally, yes, but we're not talking about fundamentals.

Words are like flavours. You can't always put them in boxes that never overlap with anything else.
Things can "taste" similar and some people will "taste" a greater difference between two things while others won't "taste" any at all.

Japanese and Western walking warmachines are both very similar. Definitely.

But there is generally is a difference, even if you can't quantify the exact difference.
It's like describing the difference between Coke and Pepsi.


The google tests shows that there is a difference in the "taste" of mecha and mech.
Mecha are generally humanoid and more like giant humans. Smoother lines and more fantastical.
Mechs try to be grounded and generally don't try to look like humans (aside from bipedalism, which is common).

You can have Japanese robot animes that have more of a mechish feel (like your image) and you can have Western robots that feel more mecha than mech.
Pacific Rim, for example, rides a little closer to the mecha side in terms of Crimson Typhoon or Gypsy Danger, but Cherno is more Western mech style.

It's a spectrum that is based on feeling. So it's really hard to hammer down. But there is a spectrum.

>I don't want to sound rude but I've never really heard of that destinction, not even online.
The google image search test shows that there is a distinction in the general groupthink

>Mecha are generally humanoid and more like giant humans. Smoother lines and more fantastical.
>Mechs try to be grounded and generally don't try to look like humans (aside from bipedalism, which is common).

I don't need Google to tell me that ain't true.

>Voltes V
I'm an /m/ neophyte, wut be dis?

>kikaiju
I think today we would translate this as "mecha kaiju", but the older translation is reflective of a time prior to a familiarity with Japanese monster tropes, so the American concept of "mechanical beast" or "mechanical monster" was a good approximation of what exactly is connoted by kaiju. Shit's fun to talk about.

I think the real and super divide was more articulated by people within the industry, such as its creators, and for better or for worse they became the talking poitns (point of comparison: Scott McCloud established the framework for discussing comic book rhetoric). That doesn't mean we have to take the terms as gospel, and as signposts of the genre they've been interrogated and made complex.

I think tone and appearance both lend themselves towards establishing different aesthetics, which mecha have used to make a variety of points. Shit's hard to talk about tho.

>grounded
I could post some SRMTHFG if that helps.
Or Acceleracers, that'd work.

It´s Animatrix all over again

>The google tests shows that there is a difference in the "taste" of mecha and mech.

Wait a moment, user.
Do you happen to be a fan of any work in the genre or are you someone with a blank slate?
Because Google tailors stuff specifically according to what you've been looking at.

For instance, I could put "How to become the next Fuhrer and form the sixth Reich" and it would still show me a picture of a pony in there.

You have difficulty with generalizations, eh?

Tell me when a shoe stops being a shoe and becomes a boot instead.
You can't draw a stiff line with only one type on one side and only the other on the otherside.

You can just do it in Incognito mode so it doesn't use your references

Anyways, while we're pitching fits about definitions, can someone tell me where power armour stops and mechs/mecha begin?

>So a pile of poorly drawn complete shit
no, I'm talking about Titan.

I think the real difficulty when talking about two cross-cultural concepts which are ultimately more similar than different, and which to boot have influenced each other greatly over the years, is the difficulty of navigating both translation and the particulars of the concept.

Transformers embodies this difficulty: in Japan it's clearly a mecha show, whereas in America it was science fiction with giant robots. Although considered an American show, the Japanese brand of Transformers had a distinctly separate feel, including a season full of mostly humanoid characters (and KissPlayers...but that means talking about KissPlayers).

Not him, but I have to say that the distinction feels a bit false, it's drawing a generalization from too few samples and ignoring a lot of other examples. The term "mech" might not be fully synonymous with Jp. メッカ, but the two terms do not imply anything more specific than "piloted robot".

I think where the argument that Japanese mecha are "humanoid" while American mecha are "walking vehicles" fails is that it's drawing up a divide which really doesn't exist.

Gonna be honest, senpai, I don't think the distinction is rooted in actual hardware. Power Armor are mech-like suits that fit more into the category of "personal clothing" or "combat armor" whereas mobile suits and mechs are more in the category of "artillery" or "combat vehicle". The difference is conceptual rather than reflected in function or form.

>You can just do it in Incognito mode so it doesn't use your references

Are you sure? Because I wanted to give some proof to user by showing both mecha and mech on mine which is practically alike but pony fan art appeared.

The last thing we need is to call in that Barney idiot but it kinda goes against what you've said about a blank slate.

It's a normal Super Robot show. It's absolutely nothing special really, it's about a combining super robot, Voltes V, and its crew, the Voltes team, in their fight against the aliens known as the Boazanians, horned humanoids.
It's kind of interesting towards the end as the Boazanians lose themselves to backstabbing and the Voltes Team starts to find out more about itself and the origins of their machine, but otherwise it's a normal MOTW show.

Mecha doesn't have to be and isn't really super hard to talk about if you just lump it all together as one big thing. Like, Super and Real, they're there, yeah, they aren't super hard lines, yeah, but they're lines. It's no solid deal, but a deal it is. I don't think most nips think about it super hard at any rate, most Japanese kids see fictional robots nowadays as old fashioned regardless of the robot's tone or appearance.

There's a chart, though I can't find it now, which some Japanese guys made to compare various robot franchises in terms of super or real. It was a four-side chart with levels of idealism and pragmatism, with stuff like VOTOMS falling hard into low idealism and high pragmatism, and stuff like Ideon falling into low Pragmatismand low idealisnm, with stuff like Gundam falling into the middle.

I've been saying this entire time that your distinctions aren't really solid. They aren't yo. I've posted enough examples to show this; others too have spoken in a similar vein. Take it how you like.

Does he kinda count as western?

So wait, is that a picture of a person piloting Big Guy piloting something else?

IMO it goes like this:
You sit in mecha.
Power Armor you move in.
The end.

A Scopedog or any other AT is not power armor. You sit in it and pilot it with pedals and levers. Anything you "wear" is power armor.

You get stuff like mocap where this is harder to define, but this can be distinguished by how much room the pilot actually has inside of the machine. Could they walk around a little if they wanted? Mecha. Move their hand and the hand will always move? Armor.

>it's drawing up a divide which really doesn't exist.
I think there is a divide. Or at least two overlapping but separate loci.

If someone gave you 100 random sampling of piloted robots, both from the West and from Japan, you'd be able to tell them apart most of the time from their designs.
You won't always be right, but you'll be right often enough to be able to generalize.

It's Big Guy piloting his kickass ship car, which he promptly rams into the super dinosaur after flying across the earth.
Basically a guy in a suit in a ship.

Whats the sauce on this, Courage the Cowardly Dog?

>Voltes V
You don't think I'm missing out by skipping it? I think you're right, it lives up to its genre conventions more than anything else.

>Mecha doesn't have to be and isn't really super hard to talk about if you just lump it all together as one big thing.
Dividing it up into little bitty things is the (sometimes foolish) obsession of /lit/ and genre theorists. Mapping out the conventions of a genre introduced in translation to English-speaking audiences is fascinating and fucking hard. It helps to convey or theorize the complexity mecha shows are capable of reaching, or understanding what influences drove the creator/how the native audience understands mecha vs foreign audiences.

I'd say it's American-Japanese: Spider-Man is imported to Japan as a foreign US product, but was localized and adopted by the native culture to be Japanese. Much like how we consider certain American interpretations of Godzilla just as American as Japanese films (GINO notwithstanding).

I think that generalization is drawing more from the fact that a certain type of mecha have become popularized in Japan, and so the sample is inordinately skewed. Humanoid mechs might be popular, but they are by no means exclusively Japanese. My issue with the divide is that it ignores how Americans and Japanese understand science fiction, as mentioned earlier in the thread () sci-fi in the US does not classify "giant robot" as its own genre.