Who was in the wrong here?

...

Guatamarvelans for eating this shit up

Cap. dude knew they fucked up and still went full war criminal, and also turned into Bucky's bitch

Tony had Spidey so he alright

Iron "Globalist Cuck" Man.

one of the things I hate the most about these superhero movies is are the inconsistent powerlevels
how the fuck is cap a match for tony?

weren't they double-teaming him?

What? How does that even make sense? The whole point is that Bucky was framed and everyone else is wrong for trying to imprison them without investigating the bombing.

>is are
too early in the morning for me, sorry

He's not. It's why it took both Bucky and Cap to even stand up to Iron Man and despite that the only reason Cap was able to walk away was because Tony didn't just fucking waste him when given the chance.

I mean how can cap stand his ground and take hits from tony? he even punches him and tony visibly gets hurt
cap is just a really strong and fast soldier without superpowers, he really doesn't fit in

Tony is literally the cause of everything gong wrong in this movie. There were two major points of conflict. Here's how they look:

>Sokovia Accords
Tony makes Ultron against the wishes of literally every other Avenger, Ultron (Tony's creation) then proceeds to almost destroy the world. Tony responds by pushing through legislation LITERALLY NAMED AFTER HIS FUCKUP to regulate the other Avengers. Tony proceeds to ignore this like ten minutes later in order to pursue a personal vendetta, because in this movie he is a fucking idiot.

>Bucky
This one is at least forgivable because it was made clear in the film that Tony wasn't being rational. Still, he straight-up tried to murder a guy who--while, yes, is a Russian cyborg murdervillain--is also and primarily a victim of brainwashing. This is something that he knew to be fact at this point.

Tony was wrong in both cases; the former, by being a huge hypocritical dick who was fucking up the Avengers because, at best, he was guilty about how badly he had fucked up earlier and, at worst, because he was unable to see how it wasn't the Avengers that had caused Sokovia and needed to be stopped, it was literally 100% him.

The latter case was just him trying to murder a super buff brainwashing victim.

Like, I like IM1 and I like the character but as he appeared in Civil War he was objectively in the wrong on every count.

tony is just some faggot in a suit of armor

Cap in MCU is way, way fucking overpowered. But even in the films he isn't at all a match for Stark.

To be fair, Stark technically "won" the fight since he had both Bucky and Cap pretty much incapacitated but neglected to finish Cap off for obvious reasons. That being said neither of them should have stood a chance. That scene where Bucky tries to disable the core of the suit and Stark just obliterates him and is completely unfazed is how the whole fight should have went

Stark was right for the wrong reasons.

Cap was wrong for the right reasons.

MCU Cap has superpowers. The "peak human" nonsense went away about the time he started tossing motorcycles.

tony can't fight for shit so when you put him in an enclosed space in which he cannot fly then he becomes a lot less powerful. yes, he has lasers, but cap has a shield that can deflect anything.

that suit of armor makes him the equivalent of a demi-god

>Tony makes Ultron against the wishes of literally every other Avenger, Ultron (Tony's creation) then proceeds to almost destroy the world. Tony responds by pushing through legislation LITERALLY NAMED AFTER HIS FUCKUP to regulate the other Avengers. Tony proceeds to ignore this like ten minutes later in order to pursue a personal vendetta, because in this movie he is a fucking idiot.

Not really a fair criticism considering they ended up needing Vision who was what Ultron was supposed to be to begin with. Plus the movie implies that Ultron basically created himself

Steve Rogers pls go

>tony is just some faggot that's a walking/flying tank
ftfy, a fist-fight with Iron Man that doesn't leave Cap in a puddle of goo is not realistic in any way, shape, or form.

he could just fly in circles over cap and spray him with missiles
cap would be defenseless

the writers.

I understand they needed to have Civil War. But everyone's motives were dumb especially Stark's.

He's super fast, strong, and smart. Whatever the "super" power level is, unless Tony is going for the kill he couldn't win that fight even 1v1.

Film critics.

Helping to fix your fuck-up after it almost destroys the world isn't really the same as not fucking up.

Also I should correct myself; he doesn't ignore the Sokovia Accords to pursue a vendetta, if I'm remembering correctly he does it to go help Cap (which is exactly what the accords are supposed to prevent), then turns murderous later. Either way the dude's a hypocrite, just want to be clear.

>calling cap "super smart" compared to tony

Not him, but "smart" is a really weird metric when it comes to Marvel heroes anyway. Like, Cap probably couldn't engineer an anti-gravity panel on the fly like Tony could, but he's explicitly mentioned as superintelligent (at least in the comics, I forget if this is ever made explicit in the films--even if it isn't, it's clear by the fact that he can do his shield shit) to explain how he does his insane supercomputer-tier geometry to get his shield to bounce the way he wants.

It's like in the Marvel universe "Smart" has a bunch of different, non-overlapping subcategories.

>Helping to fix your fuck-up after it almost destroys the world
Again, this makes no sense. Thor makes it clear that they NEED Vision, and Tony didn't actually create Ultron. If he didn't do what he did there would have been no Ultron, but also no Vision which would have presumably fucked them come Infinity War.

Not to mention that Tony was basically brainwashed after seeing the literal end of the world.

>it's a "one of the characters we wrote isn't the right power level for this scene, lets adjust it" episode

In prison or in this movie?

>scarlet witch fucks with banner's head
>it's not his fault he nearly destroyed a city :)

>zemo fucks with bucky's head
>it's not his fault he was killed tony's parents and a shitload of other people :)

>scarlet witch fucks with tony's head
>OMG WOW HOW COULD HE MAKE ULTRON WHAT A RETARD EVERYTHING IS HIS FAULT!!!

I think he means cap just has a superior mind for tactics and combat than does Tony.

>hey guys we're all killing a lot of people and causing a lot of damage on our epic adventures
>let's hold each other accountable so we can be responsible with our powers, you see I've devised a system where--

>NO TONY MUH FREEDOM MUH BUCKY MUH MUH MUH MUH

>Again, this makes no sense.

Let me break this down for you.

>I don't stab you

This is good.

>I do stab you

This is bad.

>I stab you, then drive you to the hospital. You get all better. Maybe you even get an X-Ray that detects a brain tumor and it ends up that you would have died of cancer if I hadn't stabbed you.

This still does not mean it was good of me to stab you.

Tony created a god damn weaponized AI to police the world after everyone (including the only other supergenius) on the team told him that was a mucho shitty idea, and then it proceeds to bootstrap itself into a supervillain and almost blow up the world *exactly as everyone told him it was going to*.

Yes, the world didn't blow up in the end. And, yes, Vision's great. But that does not mean that Tony was not being a reckless asshole who directly caused the deaths of some absurdly low number of people considering the colossal amount of damage Ultron did.

If we're going with "he was brainwashed" then, sure, let's go with that. That doesn't make him "right", that just gives him an excuse for being a huge reckless asshole.

Based on what? The scene in Civil War where tony beats the shit out of him? And if you say that was his AI it doesn't really matter since they're effectively the same thing

Well if there was no Ultron, Thor might've still been on earth, and Hulk definitely would've still been on earth. So they couldn't be that fucked cum Infinity War

>Tony makes Ultron

This is Ultron in Strucker's base, where Tony found the AI.

>85962486
Thor is pretty clear after he comes back from his magic pool bullshit that they need Vision for some reason. Obviously we don't know why yet since he didn't do shit in CW but that doesn't invalidate the scene

Captain America is never wrong

>This still does not mean it was good of me to stab you.
I mean, if the guy knew about the cancer beforehand and was trying to save you then yea, it actually does mean it was a good thing. Nice job contriving a shitty analogy that defeats your own point I guess

What the fuck are you even talking about.

>That doesn't make him "right"
...he was right though, he just fucked it up the first time because he was paranoid thanks to scarlet witch.

So basically, Thor should have killed Iron Man in Avengers 1

>he just fucked it up

That's a hell of a way to say "almost caused humanity's extinction event."

If we're going with brainwashing, that's cool, but if I brainwash you and tell you to murder someone you're still doing a bad thing. Maybe I can't blame you for it, maybe it's not your fault, but it doesn't make it right.

Like, nobody's going around saying Bucky was "right" to kill Tony's parents. That was super fucked up. And, regardless of whether Tony was brainwashed or not, Ultron was decidedly a bad thing.

Maybe then we would've got a good Spider-Man movie.

He'd need to kill Amy Pascal too

Your arguing a strawman here since your original point was about responsibility.

It's different types of smarts.

A good comparison would be in DBZ - Cap is Goku, Tony is Gohan

Cap/Goku is by far the more intelligent in combat situations, able to think faster and adapt to unexpected events and understand an opponent's strengths and weaknesses at a glance. If Cap/Goku fight someone who has an equal power level to them, they are going to win because they have the better mind for fighting.

Tony/Gohan on the other hand are smarter in basically every other way, whether it be tech smarts or general knowledge

wut, you literally waved away bucky's behavior in your post because he was a victim of brainwashing, and blamed tony for trying to kill him

>Cap/Goku is by far the more intelligent in combat situations, able to think faster and adapt to unexpected events and understand an opponent's strengths and weaknesses at a glance.
Based on what? Keep in mind we're talking about the films here. Name some specific scenes that illustrate Cap being able to do this decidedly better than Tony.

Being pissed at Bucky for killing Tony's parents is just as retarded as being pissed at the gun Bucky used for killing Tony's parents. He was a tool used by someone else.

It's not like he was a hitman - Hitmen still get charged with murder because they could have easily said "no I will not kill someone for money" - in the film it's clear Bucky was brainwashed and had no control over his actions. He did nothing wrong because he didn't actually do anything - his body did.

Did you watch any of the iron man movies? How is tony in any way inferior in this regard?

Based on single handedly turning the tide in World War 2 and also having spearheaded covert missions for SHIELD. And as shown in CA: WS, could pretty much take out a whole ship of sentries in T-Minus 3 minutes without so much as hesitating for a minute as to what his next steps are.

I also believe he calls the shots whenever The Avengers are on a mission and is without a doubt their leader for everything they do with the exception of throwing parties.

>The scene in Civil War where tony beats the shit out of him?

>And if you say that was his AI it doesn't really matter since they're effectively the same thing

Even his AI mentions that he's no match for Cap hand-to-hand lol. I'm not denying that Tony should be accredited for having made the AI that manages to take out Cap. But Tony on his own is clearly not as adept at combat and probably warfare for that matter, as is Steve.

Also, hasn't cap mastered almost all Martial Arts or something? I think it's canon in the comics, but in the MCU it might be explained by the fact that Cap's fighting skills are drastically different and improved than in WW2 and right after being thawed in Avengers 1. So learning whole skill sets like that in a short amount of time must count for some level of intelligence too.

>Name some specific scenes that illustrate Cap being able to do this decidedly better than Tony.
How about the one where he was able to beat the shit out of Tony despite the billion dollar robot suit?

Or when he frees captured soldiers from Hydra, or uses the environment to utilise his shield effectively, or beats the shit out of a dozen highly trained SHIELD/Hydra operatives in a lift, etc

Tony's best mental feats are done by his AIs or by building a suit which then simply overpowers everything else. Cap does it all himself, on the fly.

Sure, but that kind of falls apart when Tony tells Friday to analyze Cap's fighting style, then proceeds to beat the living shit out of him. Tony would be running that on every single person he might have to fight if we're going with the "paranoid futurist" angle.

Tony is by no means a slouch in combat, he's exceptionally good at it. But he's not as good as Cap.

Just like Gohan is no slouch at combat smarts, but he's still not as good as Goku.

That said, Goku has a terrible habit of letting his guard down

That's the point - it's not Tony doing the combat thinking there, it's his AI. Tony is not as smart at fighting as Cap is.

>How about the one where he was able to beat the shit out of Tony despite the billion dollar robot suit?
how is that in any way an accurate portrayal of the fight in civil war?

>if the guy knew about the cancer beforehand and was trying to save you then yea, it actually does mean it was a good thing.

>was trying to save you

by stabbing you??????

Been watching you and the other guy go back and forth this thread, and I can safely say from a third person perspective, that you're the retard in this bout.

My original post didn't mention Tony being brainwashed at all. It said he was wrong, which he was, regardless of whether it was because of mind control or him being a huge cunt. Scarlet Witch's fuckery was brought in later, which arguably changes one's culpability, but does not change whether those actions were right or wrong.

No one (including myself) has ever argued that Bucky being a Soviet super-agent was "right". Let's go through this and hopefully clear this up:

>Tony is brainwashed and does a bad
The bad is still wrong. Tony might be able to claim innocence via brainwashing.

>Bucky is brainwashed and does a bad
The bad is still wrong. Bucky I think has a stronger case for innocence on account of literally being programmed and unable to resist but still, that's not really the point. This does not change the fact that being a cyborg supervillain is bad, just whether we should blame Bucky for it. Same goes for Tony.

What you're not getting is, whether Tony was brainwashed or not, Ultron was fucking BAD. The Sokovia accords exist as a result of Ultron (to reiterate: bad), and trying to kill bucky--while forgivable considering how traumatized he was at this point--still decidedly bad. Tony was wrong. Maybe he was fucked in the head, but if that's the case he was just wrong *because* he was fucked in the head, he isn't any less wrong. "But Bucky was brainwashed too!" does not change Ultron being a gigantic fuckup.

Shouldn't Tony Stark's limbs break anytime he moves faster than a normal human being can move?

You're the one who invented a situation where stabbing someone was somehow beneficial, retard.

>other guy
yea, sure

I just want to jump in and point out that that was the stupidest shit ever.

How is that a point at all? The superhero is IRON MAN, you're basically arguing that Cap could kick his ass without the suit which is fucking obvious.

Why wouldn't the AI count for Tony when Cap's combat skills are derived from the Super-Soldier Serum?

Oh yea I guess we're ignoring the entirety of Iron Man 3 where he dismantles a team of supervillains using nothing but ingenuity, "combat" intelligence or whatever bullshit term you're using, and a bunch of worthless tin can gimmick suits. Not to mention outsmarting and outfighting Iron Monger in IM1 , incapacitating the fucking Hulk, saving NY basically single-handedly in the Avengers etc...

Yea Cap can fight but there has been nothing in the films to suggest that he's superior in any metric to Tony other than perhaps leadership and some other vague virtuous characteristics

What the actual fuck? Do you even know what you're talking about anymore? You've completely lost your own plot

From what i took away from the movie is, Tony realises that he isnt capable of making choices himself, and then due to one "bad" thing happening involving Scarlet thinks its a good idea to put everyone on a leash because he needs to be on one.

which only goes to show more so that he isn't capable of making sound choices because he's wrong.

pretty much tony doesn't want to feel responsible for anything so sets out to make it so he would no longer be in such a position while at the same time doing everything he can to still be in such a position.


Tony is pretty much a moron for thinking Cap is ever going to be the "wrong" guy when it comes to a disagreement between the two of them.

Good becomes Great vs I'm rich and fuck everything up before un-fucking it but not completely.


Tony - Whaaaaa Daddy died
BlackCat - WHaaaa daddy died
SPiderman - Whaaaa daddy and uncle died
BlackTony - The Government is never wrong

Cap - Trusts himself fought Nazis
Bucky - Trusts no one not even himself but mind raped
Antman - Something something not a cuck like Tonys team
Birdman - Likes having wings
Scarlet Witch - world hates me but im cool with it

In the end, cap is running it pretty much like Fury, while Ironman is a mess. Literally anyone would be a better leader.

> it's not Tony doing the combat thinking there, it's his AI. Tony is not as smart at fighting as Cap is.
That argument holds no water from any direction.
Even an idiot who has a suit that has an AI which can just beat anyone would leave the default setting to "always win all fights, if it's possible without killing or seriously injuring the opponent"

Tony is a fucking WEAPONS DESIGNER and WEAPONS GENIUS. You're telling me you're so fucking stupid you believe he wouldn't be able to figure out his suit is a more effective weapon if it by default tries to win fights?

If it was Bruce Banner, Hank Pym or Reed Richards that might make sense. But Stark isn't a a pacifist nerdotry group, what they do is weapons, weapons, weapons and more weapons. He might have branched out into some charity side-projects, but he didn't forget how to make weaponry.

The writers were fucking worthless, as in all marvel movies ever made.

But cap would just let them be woefully underprepared for the next alien invasion, and quip some shit about the power of friendship before they all get slaughtered. Tony fucked up but at least he was trying to protect the world instead of just jerking off to Bucky like cap was. He should hardly have a say in the matter anyways since he's basically one step up from black widow in terms of uselessness

The only reason that line is in the film is to make it seem like Cap is actually a match for Tony in some respect, which he really wouldn't be.

I want MatPat to leave

>physics are real
Yup. That's the real flaw in ironman.
Someone like Thor is super-human, so maybe his internal organs are super-human.
Tony is human, so if Thor or Hulk or anyone slams him, it's like Tony has just been in a head-on car collision or worse, his brain bounces off the inside of his skull at 60-150 miles per hour and they would have to scrape his limp dead body out of the suit, even if the suit itself is intact.

If he ever gets knocked feet-first instead of head-on it could be just as bad. The human body can handle positive g-forces (blood drains from brain for a second or two, then comes back and you survive) but negative g-forces are lethal (blood rushes into brain for a second or two, tearing apart all the blood vessels permanently and causing irreparable lethal damage)
A few times in the movies he does moves that so long as his head is human would result in them finding a tony-corpse with tears of blood dripping out of its eyeballs/ears/nose due to g-force effects)

>we're causing a lot of trouble
>we
Literally just Stark and Banner, and Banner at least had the common sense to remove himself from those situations. The other Avengers literally, unironically did nothing wrong

But they would have done nothing at all and just gotten steamrolled when Thanos shows up.

Look it's simple. It's like you make a burger, with buns, tomato, pickles, whatever you want but you forget the meat. No instead of a yummy meal you have something completely different, in this case a psychopathic power hungry lump of bread.

Thanos is going to steamroll them either way

>But they would have done nothing at all and just gotten steamrolled when Thanos shows up.
No, they'd have simply beaten Thanos with the power of friendship and plot armor.

Vision couldn't even beat Scarlet Witch who wasn't even capable of containing one, single, IED.

Thanos is already super-powerful, but he also has the infinity gauntlet with half a dozen infinity stones.

Hell, all the time and effort wasted on the Age of Ultron, Registration Act and Civil War could have been spent making a dozen different new weapons as powerful as Vision is, except with 0 civilian casualties instead of hundreds of thousands.

>Vision couldn't even beat Scarlet Witch
He probably could if he wasn't in love with her

But they don't know about Thanos .

Tony was the only one with the prudence to understand that they needed something more to protect Earth. He doesn't know about Thanos but he knew that there was shit out there that would come for them eventually

I feel like doing nothing is a better plan than letting the technowizard manchild attempt to destroy humanity

Being a weapon designer/genius doesn't mean you can fight, though.

Because this isn't DBZ or a video game, and power levels aren't mystical, unfailing numbers that dictate the outcome of conflict.

Just because one person is stronger, faster, and/or more versatile or well equipped than someone else, doesn't mean they can't be beaten under the right circumstances. There is a mild suspension of disbelief involved that is much easier to swallow than, say, that a guy could have been made into a technological supersoldier, or another guy could make a sustainable energy source and power armor in a fucking Afghani cave with scrap.

or you know, the writers are lazy and superhero movies are garbage

>tony wouldn't "know how to fight"
>when "knowing how to fight" is just opening his mouth and saying "HEY SUIT, TELL ME HOW WE WIN?"
I have given up on you, you are an absolute retard who should have been aborted, like 3/4ths of the marvel audience.

>it's a "Jedi have tangible power rankings and can't defeat each other outside of those rankings under any circumstances" argument

Just because Tony programmed his suit to tell him how to win fights doesn't mean it's going to do it well, or always do it well. It is technology and technology has faults just as humans do, being a product of humanity.

His suit has an AI, not a mystical omniscient augur.

Iron Man because he's a government cuck.

That's even worse because in Marvelland the government is somehow even more corrupt than in the real world, being infiltrated by a literal supervillain organization.

I don't care, he killed my mom...

To be fair Tony was also guilty over the fact he caused the Ultron situation.

Iron Man lost his balls when Pepper Potts ran off with them.

you guys might want to rewatch that scene

Tony won the fight and when he about to finish off Cap, Bucky pulled Tony's leg then Cap gave Tony a sucker punch.

I'm more salty about him beating Spidey.

one fucking punch from Peter and Cap is fucking dead. but nah, It's Cap movie, he has to win.

You.

Ultron was already half-done at the time the movie happened, Tony and Banner talk about it and that the Sceptre/Mind Stone could be the missing link.

Wanda shares some blame, but Tony isn't blameless in it.