Eve and the apple

the bible says:
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Usually it is interpreted that god became angry because adam and eve went against his rule to not eat the apple, and that the knowledge of evil means that the evil came unto the world, and thus god banished them from the garden eden.
however i believe that the part "knowing good and evil" really means that she became aware of the evils that are already going on in the world, and that the paradise was more something like a set of mind just like the saying "ignorance is bliss" being unaware of all the bad things makes you think there are only good things making you live in paradies.

also there is this part
"For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God"
for this i have to explain a bit more. in some old cultures, (especially the sumerians) the mythology states the gods coming to earth, distributing it among themselves and rule over the parts, creating the humans and giving them technology and civilizations in order to make the human work to fullfill the gods desires. now to make someone blindly follow your order they shouldnt be too clever or they wont be easy to manipulate.
which leads us back to the bible. according to it the only difference between man and god is the knowledge which when achived will prevent you from being manipulated and decide your own fate, do you become a generous god using your knowledge for everyones advantage, or do you use you knowledge to manipulate others to your own adventage only.

So maybe adam and eve were the first decendends (symbolic for all the people living under that god) of one of the sumerian gods (for adam and eve of course the only god) who learned too much and could see through the manipulation and gained free will being able to see through all the tricks.
There are multiple cultures claiming they were visited by blond haired, blue eyed and white skinned (or at least 2 of those attributes) people who gave them technology and helping them found a civilization.
are those the sumerian gods? or maybe are the people of adam and eve (since the sumerian gods allegedly distributed the earth and everyone raigned over one part, but there were at times reports of multiple of those people) who shared their new found knowledge?
do you think my interpretations are right?
Is everyone who gathered knowledge (and if so which knowledge?) a god?
Are adam and eve just the first decendents of one of the sumerian gods?
Are the Gods (or the god) actual living beings, or just a metaphor?
If they are actual living beings, where do they come from?
what do you think?

this is a very strung out train of thought

but yeah it kinda falls under the whole ancient aliens category
me personally i think its a entertaining thought but unlikly

What evils were going on that their eyes were opened to? The garden of Eden was paradise. All animals were tame (God gave man dominion over all the Earth and the beasts) food was plentiful, and the climate was optimal (Adam and Eve were comfortably naked). It's after they eat that everything goes to suit.

well, i dont say its necessarily aliens. for example i believe there were previous civilizations, before the sumerian. those eventually got destroyed by something, and may some of them ware able to keep the knowledge from the old civilizations and build it anew with unbelievable technology for them they were celebrated as gods. of course i also thought of the gods being aliens (just didnt write it in the opening posts so people dont instantly brand me as lunatic xD) but its not the only possibillity.
also there is the chance of god being a metaphorical thing

the government loves you. it only does whats good for you and always will. there are no possible threats as the government will protect you from them surely.

maybe it was all just propaganda and the apple gave them the ability to think for themselves making them able to see through it which destroyed their paradise.

the whole thing with there being supre advanced civilizations thousands of years ago is that if they were that advancded they would without a doubt would need a material that could withstand alot, for us to day plastic and metals, both of which if left alone would be there thousands of years, i guess what im getting at is that if they were advanced we would have found something of theres that they had made either intentionally or unintentionally that would have servived the ages

>everything goes to suit.
You mean, God made everything go to shit. The fruit was not some sort of magic spell that made things bad, God just changed the conditions because his creations had the audacity to think for themselves (an outcome that he, being omniscient, already knew was going to occur).

i dont even mean super advanced. like some people who know of architecture, knowing how to build pulley. how agriculture works. how to tame animals that kind of stuff

>literally had one rule
>think for themselves, immediately fuck it up

Good jobs guys

see it that way. if the apple just is symbolic to be able to think for themselves, it wasnt their fault because they couldnt have thought of any consequences on only did what told. god says "dont eat the apple" they dont eat the apple. but then comes the snake it says "eat the apple" so eve eats the apple. then eve tells adam to eat the apple and he did it. they never talked back because they just never thought themselves

reproduction was the fruit, after they did it they felt ashamed and covered up. they were genetically pure, their reproduction has led the human race into a spiraling degeneration.

but why is it the fruit of wisdom then? or the tree called tree of knowledge?

I think Adam and Eve are an allegory for the first humans to truly gain consciousness. And when I say first, I mean the first of their epoch or era which has extended to today. Would not surprise me to learn other humans achieved consciousness tens of thousands of years ago but it was lost to an extinction event or what have you.

Germanbro, check out Julian Jaynes' Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, an interesting read if you haven't before.

family trees, we span out across the globe, we gain knowledge as a human race, warfare, genocide, technology. we will never regain the innocence we once had in that garden nor the genetic purity it is forever lost.

If they had no concept of good and evil, how could they make a proper judgement call on whether or not eaten the apple was right or wrong?

I would challenge your assumption that a judgment call factored into the situation at all. Hell, I'd challenge an assumption that choice even played a part in the A&E allegory.

In fact, that's the point of the story. A&E were first humans to obtain free will, breaking away from the shackles of being a part of the beast kingdom and becoming the rulers of the beasts and earth. Using that newfound consciousness and free will to become stewards of the Earth.

read so a bit like what i said in and how does the tree of life fit in there? only thing i thought of was the following

there are 2 trees, tree of life and of knowledge. gaining the knowledge makes us mortals apparently but how could it effect one that it would make you mortal?
getting the knowledge of evil means you see it from there on everywhere being exposed to it, it will stress you, you will get angry and sad about the state the world is in. and it is already prooven that stress and anger and such stuff shortens our life. now the tree of life is in paradise but we cant return there since its destroyed by the gained knowledge and you cant return to eat from the tree of life. to get rid of you worries and live a long (maybe eternal?) beatifull live. maybe it was a way of telling us about how such thought will negatively effect us (just look at pic related to proof my point

shameless selfbumb because i want to keep the discussion going

Here's the real question: with the knowledge you have now, would you return humanity to that primordial state of not having consciousness if you could?*

Put another way using a modern metaphorical work: blue pill or red pill? Mindless meat bag (but with the true nature of the world hidden from you) or an illuminated human (but awoke to the horrors of the world)?

*Leaving aside the messy details of an incomplete hypothetical.

Proof that the sooner we get artificial wombs in traps the better

Eve took the red pill

i would always choose the red pill because the only way to make the world a better place is to be able to see what goes wrong in the first place. if enough people have the red pill i believe we can finally build a real paradise ourself.
is see each and everyone who is redpilled in the role of morpheus, the dreamer (he is the god of dreams in the greek mythology after all) who dreams of a better world and in order to achive it he distributes the red pill to others/gives information and tell them of the truth in order to find the chosen one (the chosen ones?) who can use that information and frees us all. however i dont believe its is something done by one single guy. the people have realize everything themselves. you cant free someone who doesnt know he is in prison.
the chosen one would be someone getting his hands on informations and makes them public which will open peoples eyes. some guy knowing what we know but having the platform and credibillity so people hear and believe him. something like that

>9And I went to the angel and said, “Give me the small scroll.”
the scroll being information/knowledge/the red pill
>“Take it and eat it,” he said.
basically read and understand
>“It will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.”
reading/learning it will be interesting, being sweet as honey. but once ingested and understood and connected with other things the bitter truth opens up to you
>10So I took the small scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it; and it was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned bitter.
he did what the angel said and its just like the angel said
>11And they told me, “You must prophesy again about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”…
the angel tells him to spread the knowledge

note, this is from the revelation, the part of the bible where time nears its end and its about to be decided which side will win the war.

Spitball with me on this then:

Do you think other animals are conscious? Assuming not, or at least not in the same way as humans, why haven't we seen even one other species gain consciousness as humans have?

I don't think any other animals are conscious in the same way as humans. As to why... well, that's when my thoughts tend to break down and I ask myself more questions than I am answering. Was it simply evolutionary and it's just luck of the draw that we haven't seen another conscious species? As in, give it another 10'000 years and maybe by then dolphins will develop it? Or was it a case of divine intervention, the gods showing favor to their most advanced life form? Alien intervention?

Well
Some people need to know,
Like neo in the matrix
Others need guidance to their best version of themselves.
It's not so complex.

>note, this is from the revelation, the part of the bible where time nears its end and its about to be decided which side will win the war.

so while in the beginning we werent ready to take the read pill to gain the knowledge (god didnt want us to eat it after all, and assuming the god is indeed a good one as said in the bible the reason should be we werent ready). and seeing how the knowledge destroyed our paradise we probably really werent. however then the endtimes begin, it is shortly before the final decision is made. its now eternal damnation (slavery?) by the antichrist (illuminati, secret governments, jews or just general corruption?) or we finally turn to god (becoming gods ourself as it is multiple times mentioned that humans are just like god, or even are gods.) and decide our fate ourself and step up to those. and in order to do that as many as people have to know whats going on

Fascinating, huh? Presented with the option of returning humanity to Eden versus our current reality, you and I both choose current reality.

Literal world peace, and yet we forsake it knowing that it would make our fellow man into something less than he currently is and has potential to be. A true mindfuck imo.

i do believe animals have consciousness, even if not as complex as ours. we humans can contemplate our effects on a global scale while animals only have a sense of their direct surroundings.
however there are some apes that are known that if one individual always screws over the others, steals their stuff, eats their foot, is aggressive and so on, that sometime the other one will gather up in order to murder the one thats always screwing them over. isnt that consciousness? even if a darker part of it? knowing how someone effects you and in return be able to take actions directly against it and being able to contemplate the effects it will have?

the thing is if my interpretation is right, and the evil already existed but adam and eve were just unaware of it. returning to that state, becoming bluepilled, wont change a thing. it will be the same like it is now just we would think it is better. while getting the red pill we gain the ability to see what is wrong and thus gain the opportunity to fix it and create a true paradise

But isn't that the allure of Eden/blue pill/not having consciousness? That is, a place where humans are not able to guide themselves but rather are explicitly guided by gods/auditory hallucinations?

A mix of the two is trouble, and I think it's where we currently find ourselves. A large group of people capable of greatness but unwilling to obtain it, but at the same time a smaller group of people fully awakened to the world but with the ability to use it for evil.

but dont forget the growing group of the ones being awakened and on their journey to awaken others to finally rise up and get rid of the shackles of the few using it for evil

The blonde hair beings are the fallen angels, it's where white people come from.
Fyi Adam and Eve were black.

why fallen angels? and when you say "its where white people come from" do you mean they really decendent from angels? if so what makes you think they were?

and about adam and eve being black, well we cant be sure about that. i mean if they are the actual first humans then probably as we come from africa, but as far as i believe they are more like to represent the first human being being able to think and be aware they might be from another time and place and possibly could belong to all ethnicities

a utopia could only exist in a state of ignorance

what makes you think that?

Goodness means nothing without evil, happy without sad, dry without wet.

100% pure anything does not and can not exist.

well, i like the nordic mythology in that regard. there is no good or evil, only behavior that is appropiate according to the situation or not (while loki the trickster represents the behavior that is not appropiate). it is of course just a personal view, but that way we can avoid the "evil has to exist in order to have good" since you can behave appropiate even when everyone else does

Read the book of enoch the angels were white good and evil, it's also why alot of whites burn in the sun its not the natural environment for them.

I have an even crazier idea OP:

It's a stupid story in a book and it never happened.

ok, will look into it at nother time. here it gets kinda late and i wont start reading a book at 2:22 am xD

maybe, but even so the author probably wanted to tell us something, give us advice. it probably wasnt written for fun since the bible was written when there were like maybe 4 guys on the planet being able to read. so what is the purpose? you dont have to believe those are actual stories, or at least not everything. but still you can try to look for the meaning in the book, and if there may are events or other tales that fit into it

Did Adam and Eve have free will before eating the apple? I always figured this was the case.

I see consciousness as not just thinking, but rather being able to reason within your own mindspace about WHY you should or shouldn't do something, WHY it is that the sun appears to move across the sky, WHY do I have the urge to kill that other ape who keeps stealing my shit?

We'll likely never know, unless and until we can teach another animal a human language. I would posit that the fact we haven't been able to do that lends credence to animals not being conscious. Not that they aren't able to learn (they are), just not language.

they had, but just look around right now, people have a free will, and yet by keeping people from thinking through reality tv, news about which b-music star has an affair whith which actress, and which dress is totally in right now, and you already have basically mindless slaves. what is a free will good for if you cant think of something to do with it?

well as you are saying we maybe will never know. but all i can say is that some animals (not even whole races but single individuals) seem to be more human than others. why are some dolphins known to save people from drowning? they could just mind their own business but contemplated that it would be something good to help

Now that I think about it, it would be kind of stupid to think they didn't have free will from the beginning. If god told them not to eat from the tree then that would imply they had the choice to disobey.

Might as well be having a discussion about Lord of the Rings.

*tips*

why? its about the early stages of civilizations, the origins of that. civilizations created politics and understanding how they formed might help understanding politics better. also its about what the bible would say about politics and how the human should be ruled over or even if he should be ruled over. its about good and evil, how does this not fit in pol? because its not about drumpf and shillary? or about which country is whitest and why its "x"?

I think assuming that Adam and Eve had free will before biting the proverbial apple is a mistake. I argue that the apple granted free will, it granted knowledge.

but isnt it said that the human was created with free will from the beginning?

another shameless selfbumb so the thread doesnt get sucked into the nether

its adam and eve not adam and steve!

did you just assume her gender?

In the Bible? No. They only knew right from wrong (or good from evil) after the fruit.

ok, then i got that wrong, but then it basically means what we have to gain to become free is knowledge, or at least the will to think for ourselfs or else we are just slaves to whoever tells us what to do

and another shameless selfbumb x)

second selfbumb in a row

third and last selfbumb. common, i enjoye our discussion so much x)