Nationalised rail services - Yay or Nay?

Nationalised rail services - Yay or Nay?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=1jgvqFAUaG8
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

YAY

>Trains
>Transport for paupers and the mentally ill

Choose both

depends if you can walk from one side of your "country" to the other in less than a day

Yay. I don't claim that nationalised is flawless, but all privatised rail services are shit.
And since traffic is already bad and fossile fuels are finite, every country should aim towards quality public transportation.

No stupid idea desu.

Not everyone uses trains so forcing everyone to pay for the trains is dumb. Just buy your fucking tickets.

I think the UK aptly demonstrated that privatizing rail services is a bad idea.

They should nationalize some of it, never really had a problem with the one in your pic. But my local train station is a fucking run down pile of shit compared to the places around it. The same fucking trolley has been rusting in the alleyway next to it for at least as long as I've been alive.

Funnily, my father works for one of the outsourced companies which runs parts of the rail network. They're allowed to cause something like 3 million in damages per year before they're even considered for firing, a crash like that with some fatalities wouldn't even meet that line.

YAY, if you disagree come to america, use the trains, then kill yourself

NO

The need a better watchdog to check spending though.

Nationalisation leads to Union power, which leads to Strikes.

yes because trains are evil and the companies are racists cause they made Jeremy sit on the floor cause of how full it is they should make Jeremy leader cause he will save the rails from being too crowded but we should let more refugees and immigrants in aswell cause he also wants that but they wont effect the rail network at all because when nationalised there will be more seats cause Jeremy said so that poor old man made to sit on the floor by the evil racist Richard Branson and his non communist company we should all become communists aswell because Jeremy told us to.

Yay

Maglev pls

who's Jeremy yor boyfriend? haha gay

Italy has a full nationalized railway system and the performances are very dissimilar from place to place.
Some lines are slow as hell, some trains are very old (80s) and the service isn't that good either.
Some other lines are a marvel instead, especially the high speed railway from milan to rome.
I think that the bad service is due to the very cheap fares, English railway system is very very pricey in comparison.

The tracks should be owned by the state, the trains should be operated by privates (who pay the time slots they use to the state).

That way you get free market competition and you can still force updates to the rail network.

The problem with public services is that there are right wing retards that will sabotage them as much as possible, so that they can """prove""" that private companies do it better.

So while I'm for nationalized rail services, I'm wary of the whole notion that they all suck, because they always do just fine until someone tries to fuck them over to prove that they aren't that great.

But it's kind of like pointing to Venezuela, pretend that they have a free market economy and then say that see? Free markets don't work. It's retarded at every level.

Of course free markets also work according to its principles. And I'm very much for say, cafes, being run by private entities. But when it comes to things like fire services, police, healthcare, schools, etc. I'd rather have the public do it.

Simply put, if a private entity fucks up and loses marketshare in say, the hot-dog market, then well, I've eaten inferior hot-dogs once or twice. If a private entity fucks up a schooling, then you can ruin the life of a kid.

It's not that say, a charter school can't be a good thing, but there must be some oversight and regulation.

kek no.

Nay

Rail transport was created privately and private railroad created the greatest rail system in the world in the UK. It was only after nationalisation and the Beeching cuts that it all went to shit.

A single death is worth at least 500K ya dingus.

Let's not even talk about the destroyed locomotive (at least 1.5M) and coaches (250K each)

Paid for with lottery earnings, casino earnings, and other non-tax funding?
Okay.

>Just buy your fucking tickets

People shouldn't have to remortgage their houses every time they want to go a few hours on a train, m8. It's ridiculously expensive here.

Yay for tracks,train itself should be private and public (japan)

depends if they're abos or not desu

mostly only abos ride the trains here

Worked for Japan!

youtube.com/watch?v=1jgvqFAUaG8

>mostly only abos ride the trains here


why, there is no petrol to sniff in there

But Japan's rail service is a long term mess, because they just build rail tracks to employ people.

>Italy has a full nationalized railway system

That's not even true.

Stop living in the 1970s for fuck's sake.

The tracks are state-owned (RFI, Rete Ferroviaria Italiana SpA), the trains are not (Trenitalia SpA).

Both companies are part of the Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane SpA holding (which is 100% state owned) but it doesn't matter, RFI is forced by law to sell time slots to any operator without prejudice.

The railway service sucks because our regions don't put down enough money for new competitors to make an offer.

The only carrier that can make a buck with the money they are offered is Trenitalia, because they have a massive economy of scale and they already have the trains anyway so they might as well use them.

This is why we have tons of private cargo companies, because the state is not involved in that and the prices are competitive.

Doesn't Australia use Diesel trains?

>going from Austin to Dallas tomorrow for a baseball game
>have to drive because no rail system
>Truck gets 20mpg highway and I'm not even a Rangers fan
Texas needs a high speed rail system and the railroad commissioner should be in charge. I miss Kent Hance.

Bullshit, the British railways were built privately and demolished publicly. The UK is the perfect example for private railroad success. The nationalisation killed it and built a shoddy house on the excellent foundations that formed its corpse.

Considering the vast distances aussie trains are probably diesel like the murricans', maybe they're sniffing that?

Absolutely we need a nationalised rail service, here's a picture of the train I have to commute on. It is absolutely jam packed and most days I have to sit on the floor.

There's only limited amount of railways available and constructing railways is very expensive especially with all the needed safety and environmental regulations associated in building them. Due to this they can't be just build everywhere and need to be shared by trains.

if private enterprise would own a railway it could simply not allow competitors from using the said railway or it could ask them to pay for using the railway (using the freedom to compete to restrict the freedom of others). This would generally be a huge mess because you'd sometimes have to buy train tickets from multiple companies to get to places and the prices would be higher because there would be all these useless middle men and contracts and whatever to make things far more complex than they should be.

All this would make trains a shitty transportation option when you could just instead get a much cheaper bus ticket making railways even less profitable for private sector. Private sector is generally very bad when dealing with finite resources and natural monopolies.

That being said railways and trains could use a innovation or two to make them less expensive to use and less of a hassle to maintain.

>Transport for paupers and the mentally ill

Maybe is Straya, only the middle class can afford trains in the UK.

Poor people takes the bus.

So, basically like us 1970 through 1990.

They revamped a few hundred locomotives (E636 class) and then decommissioned them all less than a year later.

They ordered 25 locomotives for the electrification of Sardegna's network (which is still completely diesel in the Lord's year 2016) and they thought it a great idea to order 25kV AC locomotives and try them out in Sardegna since it's a separate network from the national one, but they never did electrify it and so they were NEVER FUCKING USED EVER.

They were demolished 2 or 3 years ago.
They tried selling them to the Serbian railways just before demolition but the deal didn't go through, probably because the Serbians realized that buying 1980s locomotives that were never tried out in real life conditions and probably still had a lot of glitches, on top of being built with components that aren't even made anymore, was a fucking stupid idea.

if you commute - get a better job so you can easily afford the annual cost. assuming you commute into london or a city you should have a fairly high wage anyway, otherwise what the fuck is the point in living in a city.

if you don't commute - be more organised and book in advance

the truth is driving long distances will cost a similar amount in fuel costs to booking an advance ticket

nationalisation is never a good thing in countries with a high population, the free market is an excellent motivator for decent service and efficiency. the second you remove that motivator everything goes to shit. you think trains are unpredictable and regularly late now? that's nothing compared to what they would be like if comrade corbyn got his way.

Nay

I'm a libertarian, so no.

here is the privatised bus service I ride to work from.

A bus comes every 5 minutes, always plenty of seats. clean, comfortable. Has AC and wifi.

Rail meh. Nuclear power yay.

Thing is, British railways can never be profitable without charging so much for tickets no-one could afford to buy them.

It's a choice between nationalisation, privatisation still propped up with a ton of public money, or no railways and gridlocked traffic everywhere. We can't increase road capacity because our cities are too old and you'd have to knock half of them down to build bigger roads.

Virtually every industry that the public can't survive without should be nationalised tbfh

How old are you? When we had nationalised railways they were absolute shit, many more delays and missed trains than we have now and the prices increased more each year than they currently do

Anyone who wants to go back to that wants to do it out of pure ideology not pragmatism

>Technically privatized
>Still run by the same companies

Privatization in italy is a joke, just look at the cable communications, fastweb is the only company who placed just a few km of fibre in the major city centres.
The railway system is the same, the companies are for the 95% state owned or region owned.
Good luck with the "privatization".

>tfw as an American I get to shamelessly drive a oversized gas guzzling SUV while eurocucks have to pack themselves like sardines in a dinky little railcar to get to work every morning

feels good senpai

How do you not like straight talking, honest politics, user?

Nay.
The exception is if the franchise cannot provide a good service

While I agree that renationalisation under Corbyn would be a disaster, I don't think the railway is suited to an entirely free market economy model. The free market relies on freedom of customer choice in order to keep prices competetive, if you charge too much they fuck off elsewhere. The railway, especially the most lucrative commuter into London business, usually has no viable competition. If you live in Stevenage and need to get to London then the train is pretty much your only option. Customers have no place left to go. Driving into (central) London is a complete bitch, the city simply isn't designed for the amount of traffic that goes there, unlike American cities which are laid out with cars in mind, with adequate parking and the like.

That means that the railways will continue upping prices until the customer simply cannot afford to pay rather than in response to competitive market forces.

The upshot of it is a privately run railway can work but it needs a strong regulatory body (better than the wankers at the DfT) to make sure the private part doesn't dominate over the railway part.

The bus from Inverness to Glasgow is truly a horrible experience. Never again no matter the cost.

Bear in mind that over here a lot of our TOCs are owned by the national carriers of other countries (Deutsche Bahn and whatever the french one is) so despite being privately owned its still the same sort of wankers running it as before.

Honestly, I think we should make the loading gauge larger.
It'll be a pain in the arse to do, but double-decker trains like pic related seem to be a good solution we can't use because we built too small.

Underrated post

passenger rail is a bad idea.

cars and roads are superior. PERIOD. faggots.

The problem with that is the relatively short term franchises. No TOC is going to take the financial hit that such work would cost on a 5 year franchise because they would never see a return on the loss they incurred when the work was being done.

Who needs when you have planes

On the other hand city rapid people movers are fucking amazing. I love how quickly you can get from one end of the city to the other by SkyTrain or how you can go places where it would be a pain in the ass to take a car for example the airport (where you would have to leave your car for a few days) meeting friends in a different location who already have a car etc

Unless you were to build a hyperloop a nationwide train network would be inefficient slow transport for Canada

yay

the railroad system is one of the backbones of a country. It helps efficient transport and will be sabotaged by selfish private companies.

same opinion about roads. they should be common utility, not bought off by the highest bidder and legally made a backyard.

That's a big problem, but if there are diversionary routes, the state could do the work on bridges and tunnels around london, working outwards.

...

these don't fit that much more people
the balconies take up a large part of the carriage and the seating layout is not very efficient.

I think they can seat like 80 people or so per carriage, not much more than a commuter train can.

Main lines should be public, branch lines private.
Main lines are vital infrastructure, require long-time planning and higher investments. all of which private companies don't care about.

We need both

Nationalised for better controls and privatised so the trains will get better and faster due to competition

I'm not sure lads.

The free market is generally efficient and works, but competition is tricky in a natural monopoly.

Personally I'd like it to be publicly owned but run to make a profit so it doesn't need subsidising. We subsidise it already even though it's privatised. My other desire would be to end subsidies and force them to compete, but I expect they wouldn't bother desu.

Diversionary routes are a (costly) plaster over a massive problem. Network Rail has to pay the TOCs for any disruption to their business caused by engineering work, therefore even if diversions are used they are kept to a minimum to save costs. It costs the TOCs themselves money in refunds and extra drivers and the like so its in their financial interests to keep work to a minimum.

It all means that because no one wants to plan long term (20 years or more) because whoever makes that decision isn't getting their big fat bonus this year. Thus they continue to try and jerry rig a Victorian system not designed for anywhere near the current capacity rather than just ripping it up and starting again.

This is what the Germans did after WWII but they had the advantage of their old railway being bombed to fuck so they had to start again anyway.

There's nothing to compete with. Where people can drive they do. Commuters (bread and butter) have no choice, they have to buy tickets using the same pricing system no matter which TOC they travel on.

just be thankful of how cheap your fuel is m8, 121.9 per litre here

If you work in the city people rather take public service because of the better infrastructure

1.05 here

The whole deal with Corbyn making the elite mad is turning out to be very entertaining.

What the fuck is the deal with petrol being sold in tenths of a fucking pence anyway? Literally nothing else is sold that way and the amount doesn't even exist as currency, just round it up or down, Jesus.

>forcing everyone to pay for the trains

what did you mean by this

Or are anglos and their burger cousins genuinely so autistic they believe anything owned by the state will be paid by the taxpayer

Umm I don't know what that picture is trying to prove? Something about roads taking way too much space or something?
There's more people in that tiny box than there are likely people in those cars on the right.

i agree actually, the main issue at present is the lack of an effective regulatory body. fares must be allowed to increase a small amount annually because of inflation, but there need to be enforced limits on the rate of increase, the current increases are admittedly too high. this goes for all transport sectors, anything at risk of monopolization at the expense of commuters should have an effective regulatory body overseeing it. as far as i can tell none of them do, our public sector is generally very bloated and inefficient.

Taking up space is a good thing, not a bad thing. We aren't ants, we are humans.

Should be 50/50. Nationalised to keep the fares down and private to keep the tech advancing and extra competition.

Cars are 100000x faster

>prices increased more each year than they currently do
Citation needed

gulag

100% yes. Private corporations are shitty af at running them.

nay. you want your little choof choof train? then fork out the money you socialist fag

100% yes.
The British system is used as an example all over the world on why privatising is the most retarded idea possible

We need a nationalized railway company that both handles passengers and freight. Private companies should be allowed to provide services also.

Tracks should always be state planned and maintained by the state.

Mega industries could have their private tracks between mines and processing plants.

I'm not informed enough on the subject to have a proper opinion

Someone meme me up brah

I would say that depends on the city. If you work in the centre of any big UK city then public transport is pretty much your only option. Street plans based on medieval roads do not make for good traffic management. Therefore driving is usually not an option and if it is parking (another monopoly only this time by the local councils via private contractors) is fucking extortionate.

It's not, while it can be convenient for some it's generally very inefficient and waste of resources not to mention the environmental impact of driving a car and new producing cars. Cities should be build for people not cars hence I am all up for better utilization of public transportation and limiting the private transportation.

>Cars are 100000x faster
The speed of your car doesn't matter if there's enough traffic. Sure it's somewhat "inconvenient" for that the bus needs to stop occasionally to pick more people but if everyone would use a private vehicle the traffic would be even more insane than it's now, especially how so many cars only have 2 or less passengers.

tl;dr
british system is laughably bad
We were pretty much the first in the world to fully privatise
Everyone watched to see if it worked
Nobody else copied us because it's shit

Trains are expensive as hell here, is that what went wrong?

A few private entities gets to milk you for money, and are incentivised to not compete, and not to better their service, because it wouldn't be good for them.

Enjoy the worst of both worlds.

What would Molymeme say?

No it went wrong because we basically said to all the train companies
"We're too scared to give you all the power so we're going to let you run the trains but you're not going to fix the train lines so we're going to spend billions on an inefficient agency that will repair them called Network Rail"

So basically train companies here earn even more profit because they don't ever have to repair the tracks or clean the train stations

the cars give every passenger a nice cozy place

in the other pictures the passengers are either left in the open like homeless children, or crammed into a container of human trash.

No, however I feel the current system is ridiculous. Taxpayers foot all the bills whilst the companies make money? One of the major problems is exclusive contracts in certain areas. Operate two companies on the Southern line (the most expensive and overcrowded) and watch as prices tumble. Fully privatise it already and set up a committee dedicated to keeping the market fair and affordable.

>Enjoy the worst of both worlds.
That's what any public-private partnership is. Privatised profits, nationalised losses. Either full privatisation or full nationalisation is always preferable to that.

Don't forget that yet another party has to own the trains and lease them to the people running the services.

While competition would be great you would have to get the two companies to cooperate (eg who gets access to which bit of track at which time) and this is overseen by NetworkRail (wankers) unlike road transport where everyone is free to go when they like. This leads to a very fertile environment for backroom deals on who gets what to maximise both their profits, and we're back with the monopoly problem again.

We'll never have these because resizing all the power lines alone would be too expensive, never mind all the tunnels, a lot of which are listed and thus can't be modified.

They tried a partial regional amalgamation of NR and TOC last year. It didn't work because the two organisations were always at cross purposes, both operationally and financially.

>rails and all the infrastructure needed nationalized
>trains are private, companies pay the government to use the rails

Wow, that was hard.

America is a multicultural and diverse country. We have very little in common with our fellow countrymen, why would we want to commute with them?

Were a nation of rugged individualist.

Now this is faggotry. All that will do is that only rich people will drive around in their nice cars and enjoy comfort, while peasants like us are stuffed into shitty public transport or have to use cuckbikes

And sometimes that leasing company is wholly or partially owned by the parent company of the TOC, ensuring nominal charges. Mr Bones Wild Train Ride