Is there a shortage of STEM or not?

If you look for technology job listings by common tech degree title, there are 200,000 job postings. But you can find research articles saying Americans have trouble getting hired:

>"In computer and information science and in engineering, U.S. colleges graduate 50 percent more students than are hired into those fields each year; of the computer science graduates not entering the IT workforce, 32 percent say it is because IT jobs are unavailable, and 53 percent say they found better job opportunities outside of IT occupations. These responses suggest that the supply of graduates is substantially larger than the demand for them in industry."

epi.org/publication/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-labor-market-analysis/

Maybe someone in IT/CS can explain why it seems there is an apparent shortage. Are they ALL looking to hire Indians over Americans?

indeed.com/jobs?q="computer science"&l=
indeed.com/jobs?q="information technology"&l=

Other urls found in this thread:

myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

>Are they ALL looking to hire Indians over Americans?

In short, yes.

I left IT because I couldn't deal with the massive influx of cultural enrichment and the unassailable incompetence that followed. For some reason every nog that knows how to type ipconfig is now an IT manager and questioning them on skill is obviously off limits.

>Are they ALL looking to hire Indians over Americans?

Yes. It's simply good business to bring in 20 Indian kids at 25,000/year than pay American college grads a decent wage

depends on which kind u mean

There is more to STEM than CS.

>Is there a shortage of STEM or not?
No, STEM workers are just valuable if there are only enough of them. If you import more than you need they become worthless. This is the only reason for the importation of them and every other kind of person.

Except the average H1B makes around 90k a year you fucking faggot.

I've done some interviewing for programming jobs. The number of apparently qualified candidates I've seen who literally can't write a program to save their life is mind blowing.

I've interviewed three or four people with masters degrees in Computer Science who couldn't write code on par with FizzBuzz. It just, makes no sense to me. Perhaps other STEM fields are like this, where people apparently have the qualifications, but somehow, against all reason, are dumb as rocks.

My best theory is that college is teaching abstract theoretical stuff that's only useful for the 0.01% who will go on to discover new things. Again, using computer science, I was terrible as a student. Constantly on the verge of failing, never really understood the math and abstract stuff, way behind everyone. As a professional though, I've been doing outstanding, working at some of the biggest tech companies in the world.

The difference is computer science in school is teaching you about abstract theories and math. Stuff that is probably useful if you are on the bleeding edge of academic research. In business though, the job is more like "Read some documentation on existing libraries. Figure out which ones you need. Carefully connect them together while thoroughly testing and documenting your stuff.".

Not in tech, no. There is however a need for armies of workers meaning that companies want to increase the labor pool to spur competition and drive down wages.

Thanks for the insight user.

I don't know if it is just the style at my college, but none of the classes ever "teach" you how to code anything. I would think they'd do programming like a music course, drilling and coaching you doing established pieces until you got it down.

Instead, the instruction and teacher serve as a "guide" for you to "discover" the material on your own. Need to know Python for an assignment? Better learn it over the weekend. No wonder people have shit fundamentals.

College needs to decide definitively if it's vocational and skills based or theoretical "cultural enrichment" focused.

There is not.

CS student here, you pretty much nailed it. The way CS is taught at universities really makes it a stupid degree to require people to have for many development jobs because CS is not programming, it's mostly theory, coding shit is just building the tools to apply the theory but it doesn't mean someone is good at that.

I honestly hate studying it, the professors want to run shit 10+ years behind how it's done in the private sector and from a purely academic attitude, justify it with "I'm teaching you computer science, not tech job training" but then turn around and build half their CS program on the needs of surrounding businesses that complain CS graduates don't know the shit they need for employment. They try to strike a balance between academic and practical, and fuck both up, and end up making it all more complicated and useless with their lack of direction.

Also, being in college for CS makes you really despise the spineless autists who allow the teachers to be lazy, incompetent assholes because the teachers throw out general praises on everyone's intelligence and skills after getting called out for fucking up, and the Indians who take over every computer, drool on the keyboards while sleeping and stink up half a fucking building with curry.

If you want to hate your fellow human beans more, study CS in university

Half the time for me at least there's no "teaching" in the class, the professor just uses the class time to have you work on the current assignment and he's there if you need help but otherwise he's not involved and you just figure it out on your own or with your "team" of autists.

This pic makes me cringe. Aren't German officers trained to shoot? Or women are just given a gun because the training is physically too hard for them?

>Instead, the instruction and teacher serve as a "guide" for you to "discover" the material on your own. Need to know Python for an assignment? Better learn it over the weekend. No wonder people have shit fundamentals.

I only ever had this shit with professors who were in academia most of their lives. Ones who worked in private sector had a few assignments like that, but they were set up in a way to teach you the best way to quickly research what you need and they fully encouraged you to use Google if needed, just document what you copypasta and explain what it does or any questions you have.

I've only ever liked the professors who approached it from a practical, work-based attitude. You learn more and in less time.

Let me break it down for you
>company doesn't want to pay 1st world wage for an engineer/computer tech/whatever
>they put out an ad offering an absurdly low starting salary for a position requiring absurdly high amount of qualifications and experience
>when nobody applies to eat that shit sandwich they go to INS and say they need a Pajeet because there's not enough Americans to do the jobs
>Pajeet comes over and does the work for half the pay for a few years and then the company ships him back when he starts to realize the kind of leverage he has

I had one class where the professor had a PhD and at one point when asked about working in industry he turned to the T.A. and said, "why don't you answer that, you have more experience in the field than I do." The college eventually forced him to get an internship or something.

Hmm i guess everyone wants to hire experts or specialists with many years work experience but only greenhorns are available.

So are the Pajeets actually competent or is it like that Disney bullshit where the Americans need to train the Poo-in-Loos to do the work?

it is very tough for white americans to get jobs in the tech industry. I know because i've experienced it

im going to study CS where its a joint operation thing between the university and a big tech firm, so people who work in the tech firm are teaching you stuff

am I fucked?

I think they do everything just right, no fingers on the triggers since they have not found a target. This is most probably just a show to show average joe public that the police is here and can protect them.

Americans just aren't studying at the level they should be. I was at a graduate student reception at my school yesterday and between 85-90% of all students there were international, the vast majority from India. I'd ask them their field and nearly every single one of them was computer science. I asked the program coordinator about it and he said that they are in desperate need of domestic applicants but no one applies, so international students fill the spots. American education and work ethic is just pathetic now, prajeet really wants to escape the shit streets so he studies his ass off whereas Johnny and Brittany want to get a bachelor's in psychology and expect a 6 figure job handed to them without any effort or skills.

No that's good. HP in the U.S. used to do that, they'd train you for free on condition you'd work for them for X number of years. Something must have changed in the law, or just the general bubble burst that things like that no longer exists in America.

>Womyn police
>probably had training
>still has girl stance
Why do women shooters ALWAYS have girl-stance?

Notice how most colleges advertise their campus as "fun" and "socially vibrant" and the "perfect college experience" and other vague bullshit that has nothing at all to do with learning. Education has become a complete racket.

But the problem is the system where people pick their own degree path without any unbiased guidance. I've known so many Business majors who bought into the fantasy they'd be CEOs after graduation and then got shit jobs. The colleges just see them as marks to exploit, and the students lack the intellectual curiosity to get good info.

I can tell you've never shot a gun before.

This mostly sums it up. American worth ethic is pretty horrible right now, but that doesn't mean it has to be a race to the bottom. There are a lot of companies that would rather hire an American and actually have to according to the H1-b visa rules, but there are enough people. Part of the problem is that corporations have gotten really good at nabbing the smart Americans.

And it isn't all millennials. I know a lot of older people who have equally horrible work ethics.

Colleges are for the most part just inflated money rackets, they up tuition every year for more "fun" and "socially vibrant" activities, to add more useless administrative jobs to the point where they NEED new students (who shouldn't even be there in the first place) to sustain them. These are the students who lack the intellectual curiosity to really do anything with their education besides complain about their student loans and beg for bigger government.

>information science
>STEM
really pushing it

To be fair there is a valid distinction to be made for education vs training though the entire concept has been ruined. ((They)) really found the seam created by the idea of breadth-wise education and used it as a reason to milk money out of feminist basket-weaving. I think most people would agree that a certain degree of breadth is useful in a STEM education, but it's gone too far.

>of the computer science graduates not entering the IT workforce, 32 percent say it is because IT jobs are unavailable

They are wrong.
There is a huge shortage of IT personnel.

The problem is you need to actually be good to be employable.
A bad programmer does more damage than improvements.
A bad system administrator can fuck up your entire company.

It's too easy to get an IT degree, it's no guarantee what you have the skills you need at the workplace.

The breadth of subjects taught in school from K-12 is so poor though, that people are learning in college what they should have learned in middle school. In large part, again the academics have ruined things with their "purity." MUCH more material could be learned if education focused on encyclopedias and expert summaries rather than forcing kids to read the source material. Why waste a month reading The Great Gatsby when its themes could be examined in one lecture?

I agree completely, the K-12 system is a complete mess. Go sit in on a 100 level writing class or God forbid a

Same here. The thing is, I know many STEM graduates who have never entered STEM job market, because they get paid a lot more in other industries.

I'm going back to school now for IT, not very excited. Computer classes are all easy enough for me but I have no interest in it, besides Sup Forums and social media I don't really use any technology outside of school. All of the other things I'd like to maybe major in (music history, foreign language) or do (open a restaurant, start a farm) don't seem like very good decisions if I want stability and work-life balance. I don't think that I need a "fulfilling" career or anything, but I don't know how good I'll do further on into my degree and career when I have no interest in what I'm doing and everyone else in my classes seems passionate about it.

>purity just a meme they pretend to uphold so no one challenges the senior professors, the department heads, and their ideologies.

lol so true. The worst was having to read Shakespeare. Let alone the absurdity of reading a play, it's ridiculous that the system seems to think understanding archaic 16th century language is as important as understanding the general themes and ideas.

Just the same as the Computer Science professors teaching the underlying the physics rather than practical applications. Like you said, the whole thing needs a page 1 rewrite.

The "college experience" is severely overrated anyway. Going to "frat parties" you'll mostly run into whores with a penchant for changing their minds and fucking you over. Pic related.

There is a shortage of STEM graduates with the exact qualifications that are required for those jobs. In addition, it is not uncommon for people working in STEM to branch out to higher paying managerial positions.

>Those people in the background

Gee, better walk along with my hands above my head so they don't think I'm a terrorist.

It's too easy to get a STEM degree. If you have a master's in engineering or post-baccalaureate licensure in the health sciences you'll find jobs everywhere you look. I'm a medical laboratory scientist, and there are so many jobs it's unbelievable.

But an IT job really requires no degree, and the ones that do want more than just a kid with a BS in CSE.

Sounds good. Any decent part-time opportunities in these fields?

Yup. I work part-time while working on my master's degree. I make enough to live very comfortably in a mid-sized city (850k). Because every hospital system, practice group, and private lab needs lots of you, you basically get to tell your bosses what's up and they either have to acquiesce or you just go somewhere that will take you.

The downside in my field is that there is a lot of stress and pressure (i mean, you can fucking kill people if you mess up) and nurses are way more retarded than you think.

Oh, yeah, and if you want to make good money go be a nurse.

I was doing pharmacy/computer scientist in college till my physics teacher had me take some Chinese delegates on tour of the school since he was busy.

I learned from him and the delegates is that colleges in the US get paid bonuses and get their taxes lowered by the government for having foreign students come (my school was Chinese, Bahama islands, Indians).

To get them to come, the school basically pays for their whole stay (housing, laptops, classes/tuition, books).

And if these students get A's, the teachers receive a bonus in pay.

But the teachers do a bell curve system of grading, so they fail other students so the foreign ones get A's, and they raise tuition for people who are citizen's of the US to pay for the foreign students.

The final nail in the coffin was there would be scouters from companies come by to look for potential employees. ALL WERE FOREIGN TOO.

Companies want the hardest workers for the cost of a mcdouble. They may bitch and complain, but they are making the problems then bitch about it so they continue to get away with it.

It's like blaming a fart on the dog, but keep farting anyways.

You're an idiot if you think that they are being paid 25,000 like mexicans who pick our fruit

I looked into medical lab science at one time, even did an internship for it. All the industry veterans recommended against the field. They said hospital admin was being taken over by nursing, and med lab science is a field where you'll "never get rich but never starve." I think outside of California, pay tops out around 60K and you'll always work under the pathologist.

IT is attractive to people because of the opportunities for work diversity and advancement - that is if you ever get your foot in the door.

>IS STEM IN SHORTAGE?
It depends what you mean. The issue is more that fresh STEM isn't what is desired. Experienced STEM is what people are actually looking for for hiring natives because fresh STEM professionals have huge turn over, generally shit work ethic, and vague credentials.

So, if you haven't been in the industry, it is hard to get a foot in the door. And the longer you stay on the shelf, the less likely you are to actually get hired in the field.

Ok this is a frat that is trying to raise money for a philanthropy, not at all affiliated with the school overall. These frat guys whiles spending a shit load of time out outside of their studies, are still doing more than the other 90% of the school population that is just playing vidya games all day

There's certainty a shortage in the M part of STEM, but everyone seems to only be able to read the first 3 letters

Honestly I would just start making shit up. "oh yeah, I worked at so and so for 3 years". And then just do a scattergun approach and hope someone buys it

Is there real money in M though? I would guess that its mainly academia but I don't really know. I would assume most physicists/astroengineers are counted in the E

>IT jobs
>STEM

no. only /sci/tards believe in the 300k starting

Part of the problem is math is hyped as being difficult, and it's accepted to just give up in middle and high school and say "I suck at math lol."

Some anons here have said they teach calculus in Europe during middle school. Don't know if that's true, but it would be a huge advantage heading toward college.

I have experience in physics teaching in both Russell Group and non-Russell Group unis in the UK and the difference is night and day.

STEM is very much dependent on where you went and the department you studied from. Note that this isn't the same as employability; some unis might not be up to snuff to get you a job at CERN, for example, but they'll be enough to get you a teaching job.

Don't fall for the mathematics meme. I did, and I wish I hadn't. Lots of work for no pay off. Like another user said, they want experience, because fuck training/preparing people.

>Information Technology
>Science TECHNOLOGY Engineering Math

There's a bit of truth to that. I make about 60k right now, in Ohio, but I do have room to grow on that. And the person who ultimately operates the lab is required to be either an MD or a PhD, so you will see a lot of pathologists running the place. But managers are typically MSs, which you'll see at larger systems.

Just about everybody eventually graduates from the lab to doing other things - bloodbanking, cytotech, etc. Once you can specialize, you start to take on managerial roles. You won't ever get rich, no, but I expect to make 80k a year by the time I'm 40, and job security through the roof. I'm happy with that. If I weren't, I could go to med school. But fuck that.

The jobs are there but the asking requirements are too high for recent grads.

Why doesn't she have her groin protector unbuckled??

There are (or at least was) threads dedicated just to post stories of people failing hard on programming interviews on Sup Forums. People fall for the CS bilionaire meme, and they graduate on it, no matter if they are shit on it.
Then these idiots get replaced by poo niggers and try their luck in another area. What you see in the market news? "Jerry Blanc left the IT market to sell penis-shaped blueberry muffins, see how that changed his life forever"

Not really. Here is the fundamental secret no one is willing to tell fresh graduates of any field.

You cannot expect to receive more in income than you give in utility.

There are tons of jobs on the market right now that are sales focused that pay well on a commission basis. Why? Because the company understands what you do, how much income it brings, and that if they were unwilling to pay a substantial amount you could simply sell for someone else.

So, when potential utility is vague companies will do their best to minimize the risk in hiring employees. Mathematics is only truly useful in limited circumstances, but those who would hire a math major for being a math major tend want someone with experience in their field.

Really, instead of mathematics, you might be better off taking accounting, a practical in demand engineering degree, or just generally just going into academia.

>I think they do everything just right
Chicken winging and chick lean.

Physicists don't make shit either.

I have a MSc in engineering and I have been looking for a job since march this year. I have applied to maybe 200 jobs.

At least in Norway it's not exactly easy. One job I applied to had 1400+ (one THOUSAND four hundred) applicants. The lay offs in the oil sector really messed things up even though I am not a petroleum engineer. I am just a recent graduate who have to compete with thousands of people with 10+ years of experience.

That all sounds logical. By chance though did you get married young or have a long term girlfriend?

I noticed for me, part of the problem with health support jobs was that if you mentioned your field to a chick on a date, they understood it as being some sort of assistant and weren't impressed. Obviously they're idiots, and would be more impressed by someone in Law School despite there literally being no jobs for lawyers.
IMO women and their hypergamy have really hurt education by their inflated expectations.

Obama has no real education.
He is a classic affirmative action "leader"

Yes.

Look at it this way; if you can competently do shit involving numbers, you're already ahead of 80% of the applicant field. People - on the whole - are fucking terrible at even basic mathematics. If you can marry that to other shit like data manipulation, you're set.

>C- in golf

jesus h christ

Why is the bitch in the pic chicken winging

The average H1B makes $90k a year. Tell me how that is not a 1st world wage you fucking entitled faggot.

+1 looks like something my senile and racist grandfather would forward in an email to the family.

"FW: Obama's Education"

That's true for a lot of STEM majors now. I've heard all sorts of stories about surgeons who can regurgitate from memory every single substrate in the kreb's cycle but take an hour to suture something a less qualified person (eg a PA) could do in a few minutes. So much of STEM has been sunk into theory that few people actually have the hands on competence they should.

Besides this being fake, there hasn't been a president in a very long time that has had a background in science. We get lawyers as presidents who know how to speak. I doubt Trump has many science classes on his transcript either.

>BASIC JOB CREATION
>F

There is a shortage of STEM at the prices that they want.

What they want are STEM employees at Asia and India pay levels. They want so many new STEM employees that the employee doesn't get to choose who he works for. Because STEM is one of the few remaining job fields where control is in the hands of the employee.

Basically, they want to pay engineers and mathematicians as much as burger flippers, and the billionaires run advertisements and campaigns that are little more than throwing a temper tantrum that not everyone can be a STEM major.

I'm the only white American programmer on a team full of Indians...I'm seriously not happy about it, but I have to stay here for a while so I can move on with a good reference.

I don't think it's about cheap labor anymore. Companies have to publicly post their H1B salaries and the ones I've seen are pretty damn good.

Sometimes my friends ask me about learning to program or getting an IT degree. I always point them in the right direction (community college classes and free online tutorials) but they never ever follow up on it.

What's fucked is that colleges basically have to keep charging more money for "socially vibrant" activities because of how higher education is structured. Colleges are stuck competing with each other for students, so they have to offer better amenities and activities than their peer institutions. It's stupid shit like, "Texas just built a new student center, so now Texas A&M has to build a new student center." The money is all financed through grants, loans, and parents so the students don't think "this student center is costing me $500 a semester." At the big schools, the universities also get incentivized to spend more money on students because money spent by the university per student is a major measure for the US News rankings.

The whole thing is set up like the Prisoner's Dilemma in game theory and all of the universities are antagonistic to each other. I don't think there's a way it can be fixed unless either the government intervenes or universities created a nonprofit to regulate them.

>no evidence that pic is legit

That same 90k would be much higher for a natural domestic employee, especially if we are looking at tech sector jobs in places such as NY, DC, and San Francisco.

I was a CS student at one point. I can probably shed a little light on this topic from what I experienced in the CS university environment. All of my professors were foreign; not a single one had an American or western European accent. The students in my classes could be split into 3 main categories: 1) foreign kids who were MILES ahead of US students. they just had been doing it longer than us. 2) a small number of autistic US kids that felt smart until they met their foreign classmates. 3) people like me who came to university to learn CS with no prior knowledge and just got left in the dust.

the point is, other countries are just better at CS than we are right now and they're willing to do it for less money. unless you are exceptionally gifted in the field, getting a degree in CS is a waste of time. don't listen to the average 16 year old shit poster on here that hasn't attended a single college course talk about how STEM is the red pill; it's the blue pill.

>B in baskebtall
kekkerino

myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

Microsoft is paying their H1Bs an average of 122k. Google is paying theirs 128k. Apple 137k.
Again, tell me how all these Pajeets are stealing jobs from GOOD HONEST AMERICANS because they are willing to work for illegal immigrant tier pay.

>Need to know Python for an assignment? Better learn it over the weekend. No wonder people have shit fundamentals.
Holy shit this, but not for Computer Science, but Engineering. At my university they expect you to know things they've never taught you, and refuse to teach you. It took 2 semesters of Electrical Engineering courses + labs before someone taught us the difference between an electrolytic and ceramic capacitor. It took 3 until they taught us what a PCB board was. They also did exactly what you said, where they said "you need to use this program to make the PCB board for your final project" and that was it for instruction.

semantics

do you also believe that computer science is actual science just because the word is in it?

you didn't read the sillicon valley lawsuit about them not hiring techs from each others firms?

>The average H1B makes $90k a year.
[Citation needed]

Hahahahahahaha a Hahahahahahahahhqhahqhqha

That sucks man, I had to do a senior computer design project with some pajeets

I'm genuinely surprised how much code they just straight-up stole.

And even with that they are paying every employee six figures. It really says a lot when they rather would pay six figures plus a Pajeet to come overseas. I guess white people just see these salaries as below them, so they stay unemployed in their parent's basement complaining about H1-Bs stealing their jerbs instead of taking such lowly pay.

>My best theory is that college is teaching abstract theoretical stuff that's only useful for the 0.01% who will go on to discover new things
I've got two degrees in ex-USSR countries. We used to think that education helps you to analyze and learn quickly in real world. No one honestly expected that you can be taught more than basis and principles for your new job.

I haven't had a problem finding a job, although it depends on if you're willing to relocate, or if the area you're in actually has a need (some areas have a lot of STEM jobs, some don't). I chose to relocate, although I could of found a job where I was, it would of been of close to half what I make now.

And some of the Indians seem to know what they're doing, some seem to have no idea, it's strange.

She has a stance of a person who never shot a gun

Can confirm this. I go to smaller university where the CS undergrads are pretty general mix but 90% of grad students are Pajeets.

When they swarm labs or common areas, you just can't escape the smell of curry and asshole.

NO. No shortage. Only "shortage" in order to import more H1-Bs.

Brutal truth is Murica does not need to train ANYONE with STEM skills as long as they can import STEM labor at 3rd world prices. Hordes of Russians, Chinese and Indians willing to work for peanuts, already trained with STEM degrees.

So, should you get a STEM degree? Not for the money. Oh God, don't do it for the money. If you were the sort of kid that was soldering his own computers together? Go for it. If you were one of the cool kids that thinks oh this is an easy way to make a good paycheck? Stay away, you'll only burn yourself out.

Frankly, unless your parents can afford to pay for your college, don't go into debt to get it. STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM DEBT. Go into a trade or something where it's just illegal Mexicans and no H1-Bs. When Trump gets elected, they'll kick all the Mexicans back across the border and you should have some job stability.

Being an Engineering student made it easier to swallow the redpill. Different races make a big difference, especially because of accents. Trying to listen to someone who grew up in India but came over to Idaho for some god-awful reason to teach and research at university is a nightmare. And every instructor in Engineering is Indian, Chinese, or some other kind of heavily-accented foreigner. I've had one white guy teach in my labs in 4 years. Just one.

I'm in stem. Until entry level salaries start seeing numbers over 100k a year, there is no fucking shortage.

Also I didn't go to college.

Do not do any part of STEM for the money. Only do it because you know you were put here on this planet to do STEM. If you have any doubts do something else.

So 90k a year is now working for peanuts?