Doing a rewatch of this

Doing a rewatch of this.

Why do people hate the first season? It's comfy as fuck.

I enjoy it, but it looks quite different from the rest.

Early season 3 episodes with Buffy and Faith > Season 2 > Angel > Season 1 > rest of season 3 > the rest of the garbage seasons

That doesn't bother me. It's pretty much the only season where everyone is likable and the MOTW are simple but work to develop the characters than some of the later, more celebrated ones.

I love it as well, dunno why it gets such a bad rap around here. That said, 2 and 3 are better and more refined.

I legit dont' get the hype of S3. It has some good eps, sure, but most of it feels like filler. It doesn't have S1 or S2s outfits to make up for it, either.

Everyone just wanted lesbian Buffy. That's all.

Season 1 is just average. No real stand out episodes but nothing really bad either.

I don't think 3 is better than 2, but 3 has Faith going bad, and in general a lot of interesting character interaction. Buffy getting mentally tortured by Faith turning evil is satisfying as always. And all of this is coupled with great MOTWs, so overall pretty good.

Go watch the recaps/guide from PTN on youtube along, won't regret it.

Also agree, frist season is somewhat trashy, but in a cute way.

Her going bad was the dumbest thing ever. Granted it's worse in retrospect given that she goes not!bad for no reason, either.

It did have some good eps like Anne and Helpless. The rest are mediocre or miss and rely on magic-induced OOC stuff like candy and AUs.

I didn't say her going bad made sense or was good writing. I said that her going bad made Buffy feel "betrayed" and hurt, while also periodically fucking her over further by poisoning Angel etc.

I guess I have a soft spot for Buffy getting tortured. It's the same reason I love season 2 when Angel turns bad, Buffy feels so betrayed she can't take it, she keeps getting beat and feeling guilty. I have a perverse appreciation for that kind of thing.

That said, the Faith-turning-evil arc might not be amazing in Buffy, but they utilise it impeccably in Angel with the redemption arc. She tortures Wesley and is then forgiven. I loved this turn of events, and especially Angel drawing a line between him and Buffy when it came to protecting and believing in Faith (representing the independence of his character and the importance of his mission).

It's sort of where the show perfected its tone, kept consistent with classic one-off episodes, and it really just represents the nostalgia most people feel for the series. It also has the Faith arc, which works really well and isn't shoved in our faces right away but actually happens after we've gotten comfortable with her, along with a villain arc that works. It's missing some of the stakes of say season 2 or season 5, but that doesn't really hurt the story.

The biggest flaw with season 3 is Angel. It kind of held Buffy back from developing further and actually having the chance for a love interest that wasn't forced. Couldn't be helped since it was the set-up for the spinoff, but it is the only real dampener. Season 3 outfits were hella comfy tho. A lot more noticeable than s2 imo.

And desu I think the S2 evil angel arc both dragged and missed some crucial opportunities. Aside from Passions, nothing really notable happens until the finale. It's just this dude lurking around for half a season being kinda dickish. I think the novelty of it at the time is why it's so lauded, but it falls flat on rewatch. Compared to a more solid arc non-romantic arc of Buffy & Faith, and much more solid one-offs, season 3 just works.

I thought it worked desu. We got used to Faith, she made a mistake that seemed totally in-character, and long-simmering issues culminated in a bad reaction by her, then even worse when confronted by Buffy's privileged lecturing and moralizing. Like you can understand Buffy's perspective and not blame her so much, but it def didn't help Faith face her shit. And then she sought refuge where she got the one thing she never had. They even managed to make her relationship with the mayor poignant.

Her not!bad arc might have seemed more disjointed since they set it up in Buffy but didn't really make it explicit until Angel, but if you watch the season 4 2-parter back to back with her appearance in Angel season 1, it flows well. She wants to stop because it's becoming overwhelming how much she can't bear to look at herself, and switching bodies to a new person didn't change anything, it just made it that much more clear that she couldn't escape herself. I honestly can't think of another example where a storyline of semi good guy going villain then back to good guy was as nuanced as this, or didn't rely on some savior love interest to motivate it (a la Charmed).

Faith's storyline doesn't work for me because it's completely inconsistent. It's totally clear they had no idea what to do with her after abandoning the suicide arc. One minute she's there, one minute she isn't with no explanation. None of her motivations work.

Ultimately in S3, none of it matters a lick. As far as Buffy, Willow, Giles and Xander go, you could eliminate it completely after Anne and it wouldn't make a difference. Even Angel, after some interesting character stuff in the Christmas ep goes right back to normal.

I hated the S3 outfits. They made no sense for the character. It's clear they were trying to make her different from Faith, but you do that by making the side character different, not suddenly dressing your main like a 50's housewife.

Idk, I think her outfits really fit how people that age dressed in the 90s (if they were rich). Like the chrome shit, the diaphanous shirts, the junky accessories. Def hardcore 99 trends there.

How was it inconsistent? They spent like 2 eps showing her torn up/living in denial. Most shows would just have her go to the mayor 2 mins after killing the guy, but she has the denial phase.

I will agree that it does seem like she disappears for a bit mid-season, but it didn't seem super inconsistent. It's kind of realistic in that someone can manage to live functionally for a while and people not realize how messed up they are because of their past, until a really big accident happens. I think Faith was just really good at keeping up appearances and seeming chill until she did something she couldn't take back. You kind of see hints of it in her very first ep when she can't face that old ass vampire. And they drop little hints with her being negligent enough to almost get Buffy killed a few times. It's not like she was super well-adjusted before it went down.

Actually if anything, the ep with Gwendoline showed how she was always just one parental figure away from completely turning on Buffy. So take a situation like accidental murder and then bring in the Mayor to comfort her, and boom you have a bad slayer. Maybe it was severe in the sense of how quickly she became willing to actually murder Buffy & the others, but it didn't feel like a huge stretch.

I enjoyed every season of Buffy and don't understand why others don't

4 was the worst obviously

Buffy's not supposed to be rich. All of them, save maybe Willow, are "TV poor". She's not Cordy. Then in S4, she's back to more stuff girls her age wore.

It's inconsistent because she feels guilty, then she doesn't. Then she does. And doesn't. Ok, that's complexity. I could buy that. Then wham, she's ending the world and killing professors.

Gwendoline worked well, but again, she's right back to being buddy-buddy two eps later.

Ultimately I think the problem boils down to she's supposed to be this kind of dark slayer aspect when she's more of a dark Willow than Buffy.

16mm film stock

Bad quality film is the only reason Willow, Xander and Cordy pass as Freshman.

What are you talking about? Joyce owns an art gallery and her dad has a job that lets him have a secretary and take said secretary to Spain.
Buffy also explicitly mentions that he would often buy her love with money in lieu of spending time together (Pretty standard 90's upper middle class child complaint).

I made the rich comment because she clearly wore like 5,000$ couture outfits, which was unrealistic. But I don't think she was TV poor by any means. Her dad had some important job in LA and her mom was an art gallery director or w/e. She was like the upper end of middle class probably.

Until he cuts them off after S1. I get what you're saying, but as I said, it's TV. That's the explanation why they don't have cellphones in earlier seasons. They can't afford them.

S5 is best dressed Buffy.

Season 4+ gets kind of samey, unfortunately. Season 5 did have a few noticeable ones, but mostly it's jeans/leather pants and a cardigan/sweater. Season 7 makes a decent comeback tho.

>Season 4
>it's a Riley shaves his pits episode

>4
>not 6

Reminder that Movie Buffy > Show Buffy

>Buff wearing clothing covered in cherries throughout season 1

Subtle, Joss "If you can't win, force it in" Whedon

Season 2 > Season 1 > season 3 >>>>>>>>>> season 7 >>>> season 6 > season 4 > season 5

Reminder that Sarah Michelle Gellar is one of the few actresses Whedon did not actually fuck.

But then again her career died after Buffy, so maybe she should have been sucking more dick.

I've read she got herself blacklisted from most studios by refusing to promote a flick after the studio took it from the director and butchered it. Sucks 'cause she's a decent actress. Even in shitty films/shows, her characters are usually likable.

I doubt he got Carpenter, either. SMG/CC and Joss are well-rumored to not like each other. Probably he tried and they weren't having it. Neither were interested in his little Shakespeare orgies.

>buffy thread
>no ackerfag

What happened? Did he kill himself?

>SMG/CC and Joss are well-rumored to not like each other. Probably he tried and they weren't having it.
I think it's the opposite in Charisma Carpenters case. And in the case of most of the people who don't talk to him anymore. They sucked his dick for the role and obviously that's not a great way to start a friendship. Might also explain why Whedon got so unreasonably vindictive over Carpenter getting pregnant. She was one of his girls.

I think the ones who are still friends with him today are the ones he didn't fuck. Because again, it's hard to be all buddy buddy with your boss when he made you suck his dick for the job. So I think that rules out Alysson Hannigan and Amy Acker.

SMG is that person in your life who always gets into trouble because they try to stick up for people and show some loyalty/decency no matter how much it screws them over. She apparently used to lobby for the crew to be treated better and get more breaks and shit. Really admirable person.

I didn't know she got blacklisted though, that fucking sucks. Makes sense why she did a bunch of off the wall indie flicks in the 2000s though.

>Why do people hate the first season?

Font was shit

There is no way he didn't have some involvement with Acker. She was his main squeeze before Glau. He has a type, and it's petite dark haired girls.

I don't want to come off as defending Whedon because I do think he's shit, but the whole pregnancy thing is way overblown.

Tim Minear and other writers have all come forward and said Cordy was always going to be evil and was always going to die in S4. It had nothing to do with her getting knocked up. The only thing that changed was instead of being Jasmine, she was controlled by and gave birth to her. Yes, they were annoyed she waited so long to tell them, but there is nothing to suggest that motivated them to ruin her character. Especially when it wasn't Cordelia.

The shit he pulled getting her back was pure asshole, though.

I think that involvement only went as far as friendship. Her, Joss, and Alexis Denisof are all close friends to this day, because they all bonded over being theater nerds. She's definitely his type, and I'm willing to bet my left nut he wanted to bone her, but I honestly think they're just friends. Not sure where Hannigan fits into that, but I know she's married to Alexis Denisof so I'd hope he didn't fuck her.

Either way, those two plus SMG are the ones I'm most confident didn't get casting couched. The rest are up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

i watched angel probably about 7 years ago in tnt reruns at 5 am, and liked the show enough to buy the box sets used

just last year after rewatching angel i decided "man, i should really watch buffy, this shit is still good"

what the fuck, i know WHY its so different, but jesus christ why is it so different. im not saying buffy is bad, but overall its worse. probably about 1/4 of angel couldbe considered not good imo, but thats still more good episodes than buffy, and buffy got two more seasons

the mayor, faith, giles, babby wes and cordy, all of that shit is good, but its just mired down in subpar episodes that you need to slog through to enjoy the rest. angel season 5 spike is amazing, yet while going through seasons 3-7 of buffy, i had absolutely no clue how the fuck people liked him, let alone thought he was her "true love" or some shit

dont get me wrong, i enjoyed watching it, but alot of it was harder to get through than it should have been, and not because "omg, its soooo hard to watch spike do the rapes to buffy" but just because it was hard to want to keep watching shitty villains do their shitty story arcs to shitty characters

other than the mayor, the master, and maybe dru, do people honestly like buffys big bads?

>There is no way he didn't have some involvement with Acker
>he literally wrote both her and glau in balarena fantasys for him to watch
>he literally put acker in one with a self insert of him
>he literally cut her scene for glau

he couldnt give two shits about acker once his retarded pet came on the scene

Yeah I honestly can't see SMG having gone through that. She described the casting process once and it was insanely long and tortuous, sounded too realistic to have been "I sucked his dick and got it." Like they apparently had a hell of a time finding the right Buffy.

Willow I could sort of see him having messed with, or wanting to. She was a last minute replacement, and it makes you wonder who wanted her in.

The point I was trying to make is that he went from being good pals with Carpenter, to apparently hating he guts and going out of his way to screw her over. That all seemed to happen after she got pregnant. I think maybe he was a little possessive and didn't like that somebody knocked her up.

Only one I'm 100% Yes about is Dushku.

I'm fairly sure Noxon, too.

How did they think the show would work without her? It makes no sense, she was the only bit of levity and sentiment it had. I get the idea of Angel's journey being a descent into torture to show how committed he was to his journey, but the synergy of the show was just off without her, and it was never more obvious than when she came back that one time and suddenly it felt like Angel again.

Don't get me wrong, I came around to season 5, but it was definitely missing somehting without her.

Angel was meant to be a different type of story, one that feels more 'current', since it's grimdark and about a lone antihero fucking up constantly. Basically every show of the last 15 years.

In contrast Buffy was still about the classic hero's journey and meant to be way, way more lighthearted.

But Acker still appears in his projects. I don't think she got replaced. The ballerina scene in that one episode with Acker might have just gotten cut because she's not that good of a dancer, or the scene just wasn't important.

I seriously cannot see the boss who's dick you had to suck starting out being a close family friend for over a decade. That just doesn't happen.

They never go into that because the story, of course, played out differently than intended. They could add another Cordy to replace her like they did with Spike and Anya on BTVS.

There were a lot of rumors of Charisma being unreliable--not knowing lines, being late, missing marks--that go all the way back to Buffy. Greenwalt was a big reason why she was kept on. Once he left, her days were probably numbered.

If she banged anyone, it was probably David Greenwalt. I don't think she was couched though. The casting director said she was hired because she showed up late for the audition and was basically Cordy about it. Everyone else's fault.

>obvious than when she came back that one time and suddenly it felt like Angel again.
i know not all of Sup Forums buffy fags like them, but im a massive fan of lindsey and lilah, and his part in that episode was just amazing. hell his part in season 5 was overall just great

honestly, iv watched leverage and the librarians just for him, because he literally plays one character, and its the same as the one in angel

People don't like Lindsey? I always thought he was great.

>The casting director said she was hired because she showed up late for the audition and was basically Cordy about it. Everyone else's fault.

pottery

>checked full house

I liked Lilah and Lindsey. I didn't mind Eve, either, desu.

Cordy never did anything for me on either show. She was alright until S2, I guess. From S3 onward of Angel I couldn't care less.

People hate the first season? Faggots. It all goes to shit after S3 anyway.

theres a few people in buffy threads that voice a large negative opinion of the two of them, and other than that, no one really talks about either

i personally loved both, and think that lilah was an amazing plot arc for wesley

also, as bad as people consider season 4 angel, it proved that wes was a better watcher than giles, and faith was a better slayer than buffy. buffy beat angel "im the protag so it needs to be impossible to beat him till the last 5 minutes of the episode" style, but wes and faith legit beat angelus at his own game
punished wes and repentant faith were both amazing

in fact, angel just made every buffyverse character that was in both series, hands down better

Buffy stomped Angel 3 times. It was never a question of her beating him in a fight, but whether she could bring herself to finally kill him at the end of it.

>that one time buffy punched angel in the face, and almost started crying because he hit her back
like pottery

>angel's show
>everyone acts like a kid

Neither show could write the characters of the other after they split. Angel's super OOC on Buffy and Buffy/Willow are super OOC on Angel.

>watching the show in HD for the first time
>get to the S3 finale

oof, the CGI for the Mayor's final form is baaaaaad. Like, PS1 graphics bad.

Lilah was the best and so fucking hot too

I have not bothered to watch in HD. Even in the fixed versions everything is so DNR'd they might as well be cartoons.

Angel 5>Buffy 3>Buffy 4=2>Angel 4=Buffy 5>Angel 3>Buffy 6>Angel 2>Buffy 7>Buffy 1>>>>Angel 1

I enjoyed them all too but 1 is the worst. Internet hyperbole just amplifies everything

>I doubt he got Carpenter, either. SMG/CC and Joss are well-rumored to not like each other.
Carpenter hates Joss because he knocked her up with a bastard then wrote her out of the show when she didn't get an abortion

>So I think that rules out Alysson Hannigan and Amy Acker.
You just want your waifus to be pure

Yes after he found out she sucked Joss's dick

>other than the mayor, the master, and maybe dru, do people honestly like buffys big bads?
Angelus was the big bad of Season 2 faget

Maybe she has stockholm syndrome

>i know not all of Sup Forums buffy fags like them, but im a massive fan of lindsey and lilah,
They were great and should have been in it more. Also Wes and Lilah>Wes and Fred

Angel was OOC on Buffy to begin with. It's like he suddenly has depth, humor, substance, swagger, etc on his own show. Nothing could have been better for him.

I kind of liked Buffy on his show. I agree the punch thing was stupid, but she seemed...idk, off-balance? More like just a regular 19/20 year old? It was kind of a refreshing change of perspective for her. Something about the scenes on her own show kind of give off this "I own this" self-assured vibe. It's like on Angel she had to actually live in an adult world.

wow I put way too much thought into that rip

Buffy was the best slayer because she's utterly ruthless. She loved angel to the point of obsession and still fucking murdered him right there.

Possible. Getting fucked by a walking thumb has to screw you up.

Buffy on Angel season 1 was heartbreaking.

WELL GOSH

>you will never emotionally abuse her and constantly remind her you're thinking of another woman while fucking her
jdimsa

The after is OOC, not the before. The main problem with that ep is you're apparently supposed to forget everything Faith did because she sheds some tears. It fails on every level.

A lot of the CGI in Buffy is actually surprisingly tolerable, given the circumstances. It's a network show, but not even a big deal network, just one that's dead & buried now. But they somehow managed to make it look semi-passable (for the time). Look at the CGI for Killjoys and Dark Matter, it's not much better 20 years later. lol

Also the mayor's final line makes up for it imo

You don't forgive someone because they deserve it, you forgive them because they need it.

Nah, Angel never had any personality on Buffy in seasons 1-3. He kinda finds his balls by the end of season 3, but even then barely. When he goes to LA he gets a personality transplant and it's a huge improvement

This contradicts what I said, child?

Tell that to me while I'm smothering you with a pillow.

Idk I didn't really understand your "after was ooc, not the before" comment so I made some assumptions.

If you mean the crying part was OOC, that's basically what I was agreeing to already. I just referred to it collectively as 'the punch' because I'm lazy.

Was never really a fan of Hannigan on Buffy, Willow annoyed me. Acker was cute though.

It's possible but I don't think it's likely. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on Acker not being one of Joss's conquests. Honestly the only one I'm sure he did fuck was Dushku, the other ones Whedons wife was talking about might have just been guest stars for all we know.

If we're not memeing, I really don't know if he cheated on her more than once or twice anyway. You can't believe anything either party says in this situation

is it weird i figured out jdimsa (just die in my sleep already) myself. never seen that shorthand before.

or does it actually stand for something else?

Nah, I mean, the establishing story cannot be OOC, only what follows.

Darla is completely different in S1 than on Angel. She's OOC on Angel, not in S1.

It doesn't bother me, though. I agree Angel is a much better character on his own show. I just hated how each became service to the other on crossovers because Joss is a hack. Mostly I just ignore it.

It's one of the reasons I don't get why people say you have to watch both simultaneously. Going from one to the other is night and day in terms of characterization.

No that's what it stand for.

True, you gotta take what she says with a grain of salt, and even though I like some of his shows Whedon is a huge piece of shit, so him cheating on his wife for years is not hard to believe at all.

And like I said, if it was any of them it was Dushku, maybe a guest star here or there, maybe the catering girl or something, but I don't think he was fucking all the main female characters on all of his shows. That's blatant even for Hollywood.

I totally believe his wife. She has no reason to lie and no one, not one of his very good buddies, has backed him up.

That said, the wording gets twisted around. She said he had affairs with actresses, co-workers and fans. His first affair was on the Buffy set, but it could have been someone in either of those categories. I agree, he probably got more bit players than nameable actresses.

>She has no reason to lie
Yeah ex-wives never have reason to lie about their ex-husbands and are totally objective at all times. Whedon strikes me as a pretentious prick and I hate his politics but let's be realistic.

>someone makes thread about buffy
>people talk about shitshow that was angel
never change, tv

>and no one, not one of his very good buddies, has backed him up.
All his good buddies are SJWs that are going to Listen and Believe

I mean sure technically, but not much was really established in terms of personality when he was on Buffy. He was literally just cardboard cutout love interest.

How was Darla different?

The divorce ended a year ago and they'd been separated for 5. She has nothing to gain.

It was Whedon himself talking about sexual conquests. It does not sound like some one time thing.

I think it's clear from her essay that she has no need/desire for attention or personal validation. If that were the case, she would have burned him earlier when she first found out and he was in a much more precarious position career-wise. Now he's too established, as seen by his continued work for WB. Not that this would have gotten him fired necessarily, but it certainly would have closed more doors.

It's possible she embellished, but none of it reeked of being hammed up. I think she's just genuinely disgusted & concerned for the people who might see him as some sort of icon.

It's bound to come up, but this has been mostly Buffy talk.

Which was your favorite era in terms of looks for the characters on buffy, user?

She was a whiny chick afraid to fight, as opposed to charging in to Holtz's lair on Angel.

They backed him after Ultron.

^ this. Plus the dude could have posted receipts if it was really a massive lie.

>The divorce ended a year ago and they'd been separated for 5. She has nothing to gain.
that makes the sudden disclosure even more suspect. Wants her fifteen minutes of fame I guess.

they're both shit

>I think it's clear from her essay that she has no need/desire for attention or personal validation
Then why make it all public in the first place?

Merely aesthetics? Season 5/6. Refined (i.e. evolved) 90s glory my dude. Earlier seasons were still tainted by 80s shenanigans.

>They backed him after Ultron.
Did they?

I don't think Acker, Hannigan, Noxon and the rest are SJWs.