The great memeland

I can't wait for it to fail

demoshelsinki.fi/en/2016/08/30/thousands-to-receive-basic-income-in-finland-a-trial-that-could-lead-to-the-greatest-societal-transformation-of-our-time/

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>People think everyone will quit working when they receive a basic universal income

LOL completely ignoring that most people work because they want to, because they would get bored sitting at home all the time.
i.e. most people that are nurses are people that just love to help people and don't really care about the money.

>people work because they want to
stay mad waggie

Ah yes, that's why those coal miners get in there every day. Because they love coal mining.

Finland is about to launch an experiment in which a randomly selected group of 2,000–3,000 citizens ALREADY ON UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS will begin to receive a monthly basic income of 560 euros (approx. $600). That basic income will REPLACE THEIR EXISTING BENEFITS. The amount is the SAME as the CURRENT guaranteed minimum level of Finnish social security support. The pilot study, running for two years in 2017-2018, aims to assess whether basic income can help reduce poverty, social exclusion, and bureaucracy, while increasing the employment rate.

THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING WTF?

Actually yes.

The premise is the same. Take a coal miner and give him paid time off. He will either try to find something else to do or do work around the house.

It's actually abnormal to want to stay indoors doing nothing all day.

You would still get an enormous amount of money compared to people on basic income if you were a miner though.

>this is what wage slaves actually believe

Every nurse I know complains about their pay and rants about how frustrating their job is

>wage slaves
okay so what would you do with your free time if you were unemployed whats a better alternative?

Automation is taking over every industry, including mining... the profits made by corporations through advances in technology never gets passed down to workers. In fact, they only fire workers and hire more robots to work for free. In 30 years literally every industry will be automated by robots, including doctors and artists. When this happens only the owners of the mega corporations will have any wealth, and all of society around the globe will be living off of cockroaches. This is unless we create a basic universal income... and with all things timing is everything. We cannot wait until the robots take over, we need to make it available now so that people can survive the automation transition.

Funlan is very slow to change and they only just fell to the Sweden effect by following Noway after being indecisive for years. Norway is starting to wake up and backpedal but it'll take a while for Finland to do the same

You're retarded

>I can't wait for it to fail

...why? Basic income is the inevitable future because of the impending automation of everything.

Why do you look forward to good things failing?

You're actually retarded.

>most people work because they want to
sry senpai ur retarded

Hi any fins on Sup Forums give me citizenship im just as autistic as most of you ill pay in runescape gold.

As someone who does hard manual labor with large amounts of time off work due to seasonal changes, I go crazy and have to keep myself busy doing shit when I'm off work.

Humans were made to keep themselves busy, especially physical things. Perhaps you two are cucks and have never worked a real day in your life.

here comes the wagie ragie

>completely ignoring that most people work because they want to

Confirmed for never having known any POC

those coal miners wont just quit working and give up their house and boat and shit so they can sit at home

it will just put a lot of peoples minds at ease that live paycheck to paycheck. might not have to scramble to come up with 20 dollars for the rent anymore. living like that fucking sucks

This would only somewhat work if the wage for their job was also lowered
If they get their regular wage stacked ontop of this free money its just shitting on everyone else

It still wont work though, will cause hyper inflation

>hyper inflation

If that's the case, just what in the fuck are we doing now that's any different?

Basic income doesn't increase the money supply though. People will high incomes will be paying in more than they get out, but funding the rest. It's essentially negative income tax for the lowest brackets, which makes more economic sense than a minimum wage or welfare.

Automation is the reason basic income is needed for. If people could stop working, they would.
However, as technology advances, more and more jobs can be automated and the cost of automating them drops. At some point, a human can not compete. It may not happen now, nor in 10 years, maybe not even in 20 or 30. But at some point, it will happen to just about every job there is. You've heard of McDonalds replacing cashiers with machines, right? Well, the cashiers had to find something else to do to earn money to buy food and such.

However, at some point in future, there'll be a time when there simply will not be anything left to do because everything is either automated or, if it can't be automated, already being done by someone else. This'll lead to a massive unemployment.
Mass unemployment will lead to a shortage in customers. Machines don't need the goods they produce, so they can't replace humans as customers. If nothing's done, then a large part of the population will have nothing to buy stuff with, which will lead to a slow death spiral because money will no longer circulate and just gets stuck on the accounts of the top 1%. No matter how much they spend, they'll never be able to keep the entire economy running themselves.

What does basic income help with? Well, it gives people money to spend on goods - which means there'll be a reason to manufacture those goods in the first place.

goverment should give you free money every month
because they can print more LOL

this is what people believe

We're already getting free money in the form of unemployment benefits.

Basic income will replace that, reducing bureaucracy and removing incentives to avoid working.

>deposit money you got from a loan

...wat

What do you mean, your goverment is paying bureaucrats and they spend the money

They are not the rich 1% bourgouse that just hoard all the gold and dont give it to the poor peasants!

Your argument for basic income fails if you want to give less money to bureaucrats, because they will just go on basic

I would definitely keep working if I had my basic needs met. I'd do voluntary work and pursue my dream of becoming the next Salazar.

So you actually believe that the money you use to pay for something doesn't go to that company's or that person's bank account?

These trials always succeed.

The reason is that people know that the free shit has a definite end date.
If it ever becomes a permanent part of social welfare anywhere, I would expect the results to be much different.

Anyway, at the end of two years, this will be heralded as a success and the gradual march back to serfdom will continue.

>beeing that brainwashed

The idea is Unemployment Benefits discourage people from actually seeking work seriously, because your benefits end the moment you take any kind of job. Which means people hold out for a long time waiting for the highest paying opportunities before finally getting back to work, if ever. Under a Basic Income system, people could take whatever jobs they wanted and still get the benefits. Since there is no Bureaucracy involved under this kind of system, it ends up saving money as well.

I don't think you have any idea how inefficient the system right now is.

To get unemployment benefits you have to go through lots of paperwork. You need government approvals and will have to do lots of dumb shit. All the time you're doing that you could be looking for work instead and the government bureaucrat might be doing something that's actually worthwile, or better, he could be fired (actually: do not refill the position when he retires or moves)

And most importantly, having a job while on government benefits will reduce your benefits, so in many cases you're actually better off not working. It's just not worth it. With the way basic income is set up, you always have an incentive to work.

It's worth it to experiment with it.

There has to be some way of keeping the money in circulation. In the past it has been (and still is, to an extent) the need for the rich, or owners, to hire people to manufacture goods so they can sell the goods... to the people they're paying to manufacture them. That's been the basis of the entire economy for the last 200 years.
Let me simplify the basic flow of money:
Rich man --(pays wages)--> Middle class workers --(buys products and services)--> Rich man

Basic income is not needed to let lazy people laze off all day and get money for nothing.

Basic income is needed to ensure that there'll be consumers to buy the products made by robots.

Guess where the refugees are headed?

t.Alberto Barbosa

Did you miss the part where we've had free money as part of our welfare system for decades? It's already permanent, the thing they're trying experiment is to see what happens when you remove the discentive to sit on your ass all day.

Robots aint free
Resources aint free
Energy aint free
Land aint free
Software engineers aint free

If you think your marxist robot land can actually come true, you need "evil rich people". Who actually work on razor thin margins, but i guess you dont care about that, just care about your jealousy and resentment

Here in the US, if you are working, you can get actual money and food from the government.

All you have to do is find a shitty very part time minimum wage job and you're set. You get money, housing, free utilities, and food.

>people are against universal basic income

The cost of all of those things will be dramatically decreased as production and technology increases.

Hell, we'll be able to have robots program and repair other robots.

Your argument only holds weight at the very beginning.

This would mean you'd have a lot easier time finding work and you could accept even an internship or enroll to some course or take classes with less problems. It would also likely be paid "in advance" or at the start of a month instead after each 30 days of unemployment.

More on this infographic, I'm having trouble making sense from it

polish people are usually not very bright

Then the actual relative cost of good they produce will go down along with them
If theres anything humans can still do, like entertainment, sucking dick, making paintings. things i can't conceive of because im not from the future. They will get paid ridiculous amounts in relative cost of goods . Aka 1day of work for as year of living better than people live now

I am 28 years old.

I have been a NEET since 18. Well not offically but I am an eternal student. I play games, shitpost on Sup Forums, watch anime, fap.

This has been my life for 10 years now. I can't imagine going to work when internet give me everything I need.

If UBI came I'd do the same shit until I'm 90 and I die.

It won't come and I'll probably have to find a job soon.

What's the incentive not to sit on your ass all day? Free money forever?
Yeah. This should totally work.

You deposit $1000, the bank takes $900 of that and spends it, you still have $1000 in your account. The bank just created $900 out of thin air. The cycle continues infinitely to the point where now something like 97% of all money in circulation is digital, and this is why.

>If nothing's done, then a large part of the population will have nothing to buy stuff with, which will lead to a slow death spiral because money will no longer circulate and just gets stuck on the accounts of the top 1%. No matter how much they spend, they'll never be able to keep the entire economy running themselves.
You actually believe a 99% disapproval rate won't start a war

This is the same argument marx used while industrial revolution was happening
Its basically proven false, humans find new ways to generate value

>Let me simplify the basic flow of money:
Rich man --(pays wages)--> Middle class workers --(buys products and services)--> Rich man

Look at all these rich fucks and their businesses.
Not everyplace is a shitty Nordic model which makes life exceedingly difficult for the small business owner trying to succeed.

Yes. You'll get to a point where robots can both build and repair robots. At that point you have a closed cycle economy that can support it self forever as long as there is energy.

Energy is the only real problem.

you can put niggers and chinks in ovens they are so numerous anyways

Here in Finland unless the job pays enough its not worth taking it to lose your benefits. I think you need to be making around 1500€ a month just to have a similar amount of money left over once you factor in taxes and the cost of actually being a working person instead of sitting on your ass all day.

There's a small limit on how much you can make each month without losing your benefits. I think it's around 300€ so you can do some shitty part time jobs.

We have a big burning nuclear reaction taking place in the sky utterly showering us with photons.

We also have something slightly similar happening below us, but instead of photons its shitting out heat. It's not a nuclear reaction, but it's the result of unimaginable pressure.

There are ways to harvest essentially infinite forms of energy. We just have to figure out how to do it on massive scales.

Don't you understand rich people are rich just because they are rich
where were you at commie studies 101

do they have to hold that 97% in the central bank? How do they fit into the equation?

Most of the worlds money is pecived value and if everyone started selling everything they had there would be no money.

Take stocks. Say you give the bank 1000$ it invests 900$ into stocks hoping for some returns by sellign them or dividents. It keeps 100$ to have as CASH to give people in the banks.

Say that company they bought stock of goes bankrupt that stocks now worth 0$

Say the banks retarded didn't diversify. You now have a bank that has 1000$ in it when in fact it only has 100$.

So they give you 100$ and you lost 900$.

The only real value you can own as a individual is say a gold bar or some other commodity.

The moment you money goes digital it's basically nonexistent.

It's like quantum physics. You give the bank 1000$ and then it devides that 900$ to god knows what like 900 different sources. If all of them fail they fail and you fail.

Okay, replace "Rich man" with "Owner"

I left out that part on purpose, in addition to things like "We live in a democracy an, if voters, who can barely afford food, have to watch astounding income inequality, they will start voting for leftist parties who promise to do something about that"

It counts as money in circulation as well. It can be held in a single computer. It's just numbers. There's nothing physical about it.

The fractional reserve banking cycle happens all in a computer.

Can someone make a Pepe version of this?

so how do I make money if they can just meme more into existence? What value does it have if someone can just inflate the value away?

No dingus
>Guy who gets loan uses loan to pay for something
>the company/person that receives the money then puts it back in bank
>who, by the fractional reserve system, then loans it back out again.

I'm literally talking here about millions of years.

People are very linear beings.

But if we make this closed loop robot cycle say on the moon. It could spread much like bacteria all over the solar system and then the galaxy.

If you have a close cycle robotic factory that can make others. It's you know the good old bacteria progresion.

youtube.com/watch?v=zrx7Xg0gkQ4

If you make a factory that can make 2 more factories it's bacterial progression.

What actually happening is even more scary as one factory can make an infinite number of factories assuming it doesn't break down.

We won't live to see it but if we don't nuke ourselves. We could be Zerging the universe in 10.000 years.

The only reason bacteria isn't Zerging the cosmos is because it's very delicate and required water.

Robots don't use water of oxygen.

>abnormal to want to stay indoors all day
>says this on Sup Forums

Is there a Sup Forumsack artist with shoop-skills who could turn the seal into a pepe?

The thing you forget though is that long before total automation, probably only when a few industries are automized, the people who lost their jobs will immediately start making demands. They'll ask for basic income before it's technically necessary. There will be resistance, there will be dissent, there will be rioting. At the very worst case scenario there will be an attempt to start a revolution. And of course this is all assuming WW3 doesn't break out in the near future.

While a socialist society where nobody has to work because robots have it covered is ideal, there's way too many things that could fuck it up along the way to say it will be realized with any certainty.

>Okay, replace "Rich man" with "Owner"

Who is also commonly a middle-class worker himself.

...

Robots + no basic income = Failure
Robots + basic income = survival until completely post scarcity

well, to be breif about it
>Everybody fucking does this the entire world over
>As long as all the major countries are memeing money into existence at approximately the same rate, the exchange rate stays more or less constant

and it;s not strictly true that the money gets memed into existinence - in theory, the bank DOES NOT have that money anymore, which is what cause bank collapse during great depression - when people made runs on banks, their fraction reserves were depleted, the credit notes were all underwater and they money basically disappeared.

so in theory, if there were a run on the banks right now, then THEORETICALLY, they would be fucked.

in reality, they would just meme money into existence.

If you want to make money on this, then find a way to get into bond/credit trading.

>finland becomes NEET heaven

I think we should wait and see how it goes before we start spazzing out Sup Forums.

It already sort of is but if basic income becomes a thing then it will truly be that.

Right now you can NEET all you want if you play the system just a bit.

>tfw there won't be any way to immigrate when you fix your immigrant problems
oh well, please guide Europe to NEET empire

Says this on Sup Forums during working hours on a Monday, no less.

Regardless of how rich or poor the owner is, every single business has to have customers that bring in money. Even if that particular establishment doesn't have any employees, it's still reliant on other people who work for someone and get paid for doing so.

>All you have to do is find a shitty very part time minimum wage job and you're set. You get money, housing, free utilities, and food.

This isn't true except for food.
What you can get is reduced costs for utilities(specifically heating bills in colder states), and welfare has a lifetime cap(you can only collect straight up money for being poor for something like 4-5 total years of your life, then you're fucked). What used to be Food stamps(and are now essentially a debit card that you use for food only) are a lot easier to get, because it's less expensive for the government to pay for food than deal with people stealing and killing for food cause they're starving.

Section 8 housing is also a reduced cost housing, not free housing. This goes to about 2.1 million households in the US annually.

This all requires a substantial amount of paperwork to get going, but the system is built so that once you get on to it it's significantly easier to stay on it.

Basic income simplifies overly complicated welfare system that is used today. In addition to this, it is supposed to get unemployed people to work, because under current conditions it is not beneficial to accept a job vs just staying home. Most of the jobs that are available now are short, ranging roughly 2 days to 2 months and because someone has to pay gibmedats, labor is taxed to death. Meaning that if you get a job that has like 10-30 hours of work per week, after taxes you get less than welfare, and lose gibmedats. And when the job is over, you have to wait anything from 4-8 weeks to get back on gibmedats.

With basic income, you just get the 600$ no quedtions asked, which hardly pays your rent anyway, up to a limit when you're not considered a poorfag anymore.

Instead of providing a basic income, we should just realize humans no longer need to work 40 hour a week jobs.

As automation improves we should be working less and making more, but that hasn't happened because it's better for bottom line to exploit workers.

Why waste time and effort hiring 3 people when 2 can do the same job if we just overwork them a bit

ill do it if you keep this alive im nearly done

thanks

People shit on BI because "we'll always invent new jobs to add value with." This is true, we will.

But the numbers of jobs (or labor, or required energy and resources, whatever your metric) needed to provide for peoples' basic necessities remains static per capita. Food, shelter, utilities, clothing, transportation, health care. Most of those industries are rapidly automating people out of the equation. Soon robots will providing all the basic necessities for nearly free.

In a world where the necessities of life are basically free, it makes no sense whatsoever to require people to labor 40+ hours a week for them. Provide those items for free in the form of a BI that covers the cost living. Then, beyond that, let people do what they want - engage in non-essential jobs, which there will always be for people, which add extra value to human lives, in exchange for extra money to purchase the value-added goods and services of others. And let the lazy people subsist on the bare minimum if they feel like it, since it will cost society almost nothing to sustain them anyways.

It's not even a matter of numbers it's a matter of pay relative to work.

Pay rates have stagnated(at least in the US) for decades while the price of goods has gone up, despite workers statistically being more productive and working more hours. This is mostly because pay rates aren't adjusted for inflation, they follow a far slower curve that got shocked in 2008.

In terms of production americna workers should be working 20 hour jobs and getting the inflation-adjusted equivalent of a 40 hour week 50 years ago. Because it's easier and cheaper to produce now.

>automated artists
Why the hell would you build a robot to fingerpaint?

>40 hours a week is overworking

Millennials, ladies and gentlemen.

A bump for a based Artist.

Thank you based bong!

Yeah, productivity has doubled since 1973, yet pay has remained almost static. Theoretically, we should/could all be able to live at a 1973 standard of living while only working 20 hours a week. But instead that extra value we create has been siphoned off by the owners of capital. Indeed, much of this is precisely because automation and technology has allowed each worker to be more efficient and produce more. And the owners of technology pocket that difference, not workers.

...

If you want to be working all your time not spent on sleeping then that's fine by me but I don't want to live like that.

...

It's not that fucking simple.

A full grocery aisle, photo lab, makeup area, pharmacy, and more and yet I was skeleton crewed by corporate to the point of running the entire non-pharmacy half of the store alone for at least 6 hours a day.

I dealt with niggers all day long.

hours a week is overworking
Did I say overworking? I did not. In the same way a factory worker twenty years ago produces more in less time than a factory worker from the start of the industrial revolution there's less need for workers now to do the same amount of work for less pay relative to inflation.

>Millennials, ladies and gentlemen.
>>implying I'm a millennial

...

>Have my entire evenings free (7-8 hours)
>Have every single weekend off
>Every single holiday off
>Paid vacation and comp time
>Cozy office job

Working 40 hours a week is childs play unless you are laying down asphalt all day.

Fucking Fins with their memes lol

>what is sports
>what are hobbies
Most things that people enjoy are not actually jobs.