Homestuck

What's your opinion on Jade?

Was she really a mary sue back then?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=g0Eo-gIWzhU
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

yes, all the characters are intentional cliches

FUCK YOU AND FUCK HOMESTUCK

PROBLEM SLEUTH WAS UNQUESTIONABLY SUPERIOR TO THE ABORTION THAT WAS HOMESTUCK

FUCK YOU

One of the requirements for being a Mary Sue is being a self-insert, so no.

Mary-Sues cannot exist in source materials.

she was based on hussie's girlfriend at the time, betel

We have long since passed the point where this is true. One might as well say that they need to be a non-canon fan-fic to be a Mary Sue, so long as we're including auxiliary elements from the initial source.

yo fags let's talk obscure slightly related homestuck music
hit me up with recs

youtube.com/watch?v=g0Eo-gIWzhU

Honestly, I'd say Kanaya is far more of a Mary Sue than Jane was.

Note: I haven't finished Homestuck.

Honestly, I'd say Kanaya is far more of a Mary Sue than Jade was.

Note: I haven't finished Homestuck.

So what does the symbol on Joey's shirt mean?

Honestly, I'd say Kanaya is far more of a Mary Sue than Jade was.

Note: I haven't finished Homestuck.

It's Homestuck's fault I do gay things with my butt now.

Target to jizz on her titties

Seh never was a Mary Sue, by definition, a main protagonist can't be a Mary sue.

Also, Jade is my favorite character.

Why are Homestuck fangirls so slutty

More like Hussie gave her the most attention in Act 5, gave her a fucking handjob and then trashed her and Rose into minor background characters whose arcs have long been finished.

It's kind of fucking weird how Caliborn is like one of the few things keeping John alive

That she's a special snowflake, of course.

...

>Mary-Sues cannot exist in source materials.
Vriska was literally intended to be one, albeit one the other characters "realistically" reacted to

And then she became an unironic Mary Sue the characters reacted to as unnaturally as any little girl's self-insert in a bad fic

>B-by definition a Mary Sue can't be a Protagonist
>B-by defintion a Mary Sue has to be a self insert
Words change, faggots.

Hey, take the word faggot! It originally meant "bundle of sticks", but now it means "Anal sex obssesed homosexual."

Likewise, maybe back on Darpanet Mary Sue meant some self insert in Star Trek fanfiction, but now it means characters the author applies different standards to in a transparently obvious way.

Feferi and Nepeta have to stay dead, but let's retcon the fucking comic to save Vriska AND ONLY VRISKA

Fun fact: Vriska was created, because oldfags bitched at Jade back then around Act 1 to 4. Hussie commented on a panel with Jade and a 8-ball and this was suppposed to be a concept idea for Vriska.

>unnaturally
>everyone was apathetic about her bullshit and only Karkat gave her (you)s

Really?

I always interpreted that as they just got tired of getting angry at her bullshit

>responds to the worst kid being called out for being the worst kid by creating the worst character in established web-original fiction

They followed along because it was easier than making a scene and work on their own problems. Which sort of ceased to exist due to the presence of Vriska anyway.

>I will turn my ironic Mary Sue in an unironic one!
>Am I not clever and subversive?

Act 5 Vriska was GREAT

All you had to do was NOT BRING HER BACK and maybe we'd be bitching about how we went from Vriska to Aranea, blissfully unaware of the Monster called "Act 6 Vriska."

That and the time on the meteor, being stuck in close proximity to her probably lead them to learning to tolerate it given they didn't lynch her

I still maintain that Hussie always intended to bring her back in some fashion, Aranea was just a not!Vriska/seemingly "good" Vriska thrown in there to taunt us

So what sort of reaction was intended when Vriska trashtalked (Vriska)?

One became a better, albeit very emotional person that didn't want to be the hero anymore and help the effort, the other still wants to be the hero for selfish reasons but only became 'better' in the sense that she learned you don't need to kill or threaten people to get them to do what you want.

I really have a hard time sympathizing with any of the two.

What was the point? What was Hussie's intention here?

Aranea would've been as good a character as Act 5 Vriska if the fanbase had been the same as Act 5. Killing popular characters meant bad fans couldn't disassociate the act from the writing.

No idea what his intention was, but I consider it a great upd8, because it made a bunch of idiots on Tumblr super mad because he sunk a gay ship.

It's hilarious how Tumblr Shippers will overlook really toxic relationship behavior if it's yaoi/lesbian. If Meenah had been a 19 year old guy grooming a 13 year old girl, they would've flipped their collective shit.

...

Is that Simon Pegg above crazy Griffith?

It's a sphincter.

>but now it means characters the author applies different standards to in a transparently obvious way.
Oh. That's a good way of putting it.

...

I am still fucking mad as hell that John could save literally everyone in the comic and only saved Vriska.

The Condy breadcrumbs would've been fucking BEAUTIFUL if he pulled some Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya 'My Name is John Smith' bullshit with her. John actively contributing in killing someone just felt wrong.

John is not a very good main character. He truly does suck at being a hero.

He is aware that he didn't save his friends, but just created copied, isn't he? Not that it matters to him.

>tfw there will never be a montage of john saving everyone, including the villains
>tfw equius and nepeta stay dead
>tfw feferi remains blasted
>tfw the blue dork won't reach into the fire to save aranea

I'll grant you that. Vriska's developments with John warmed me up to her. She's still heinous but at least she tried to be better.

>Words change, faggots.
But words don't change to your liking an neither has Mary Sue.

to understand the meaning of a Mary Sue, you have to understand why it is a bad thing.

And what make a Mary Sue a bad thing is that it is a side character that draw all of the spotlight to her, make all the other character useless and only there to praise her and kill any thrill or tension in the story by being able to solve everything by herself and/or making everything about herself.

By the very meaning of what a Mary Sue is, a Main protagonist can't be a Mary Sue: you can't steal the spotlight if the spotlight was already on you in the first place.

Being cool/competent/kicking ass/well liked doesn't make you a mary sue. It's killing the story by being cool/competent/kicking ass/well liked and becoming the centrepiece of a story that wasn't initially about that character in the first place.

Jade was already a main character in the first place, never pulled all the spotlight to herself and her existence didn't made the story less interesting.

Therefore, she is not a Mary Sue.

Also, Self insert and Mary Sue are actually two different concept, even if they don't exclude each other.

No, my man, that's the legendary Paul Williams

But that's soooo cliche and conventional!

Seriously, there are ways to be unconventional without going full retard.

>but now it means characters the author applies different standards to in a transparently obvious way.
That's a completely false. see This is what a mary sue actually means.

>Main characters can't be Mary Sues
lol what the fuck is this shit

here i think i found a character you might like his name is kirito he's the protagonist so by your, uh.... """"logic"""" he can't be a mary sue

>the author applies different standards to in a transparently obvious way.
>Feferi and Nepeta have to stay dead, but let's retcon the fucking comic to save Vriska AND ONLY VRISKA
1. It's Jade in the OP, not Vriska
2. it's not about standard being applied to characters. it's about selfconsitancy and making character act in a way that fit them.

Story aren't written on the notion tat "good characters will be rewarded and bad character will be punished". That would be terrible.

>impying a generic they fight the bad guys ending and then have lots of babies ending isn't even more cliched

People called Jade a Mary Sue and complained about her in general back in the old days because she was exactly what Calliope is now, and Calliope is possibly the most hated character in Homestuck around these parts.

He isn't. That doesn't mean the story isn't shit.

The most upsetting part to me is not that ships I liked were sunk or simply written out of existence, like Karezi, one of the few ships with a lot of build up and history. No, that's just part of a bigger problem.

That problem being Hussie's apparent urge to always be ironic, unconventional and unpredictable. To the point that the story, plot and characters suffer for it. That wanton disregard for any storytelling convention just because. It hurts even more because all of these ideas have great potential if only they had gotten more of an order, a structure to them.

>implying that's not only because he wanted to be so ironic he went with a cliched ending because people expect him to not do it

We are talking of amounts of layers of irony here Shrek couldn't even fathom.

Hussie isn't an ogre, he goes beyond that.

1. I heard you the first fucking time, you samefagging retard.

2. I'm not talking moral standards, I'm talking story standards. When Vriska dies it's not Terezi acting out of JUSTICE, it's cold cruel pragmatism that's being applied. It's fitting and ironic since cold cruel pragmatism is how Vriska justified her atrocities.

But then it turns out that Terezi looking into the future and seeing that if she didn't kill Vriska everyone would die was wrong. The story twists over backwards to say Vriska is the key to all of this, contradicting itself.

She's a fucking Mary Sue. Oh and Jade is a hilarious joke with a dog cock.

Kirito is just an obnoxiously skilled/can't do wrong character. The sniper chick from the second season might be a better example for your argument.

>Kirito isn't a Mary Sue
It's very clear you're just an autist stuck on his personal definition of Mary Sue.

So for myself and the good of everyone in the thread, let's come up with a NEW definition for our autistic faggot here.

We'll call them Cocksluts!

Cocksluts - A character who the author applies double standards to in a way which hurts his story's overall consistency.

Jade is a Cockslut. A huge Cockslut.

A main protagonist that is super Cool and kick ass and always save the day can actually be an entertaining story, if done well.

>Gatson_transparent
>isn't actually transparent

All my hopes and dreams were crushed. How could you?

And we use the term "Mary Sue" when they're not.
Sounds good to me. Vriska is such a Cockslut. I think Dave is also a Cockslut at the end.

>A main protagonist that is super Cool and kick ass and always save the day can actually be an entertaining story, if done well.
That's one of the main reasons stories were told in the first place. This thread is fucking unbelievable.

seeA Mary Sue has to take the spotlight away from the maincast and kill any interresting thing to be a Mary Sue.

Having a main character being super cool in itself isn't enough to make him a Mary Sue.

Caliborn is the one thing he still has from back during the game, the one loose end remaining.

The one person who, like John, hasn't changed. Likewise, while they've all moved on, it's only Caliborn who remembers John. A Caliborn who is exactly as John remembers. Someone who he feels he can blame and beat up for for everything that's gone wrong with his life, whether it was actually his fault or not. I mean, it wouldn't be right for him to get angry at his "friends" for being happy and living their lives.

At this stage, all John needs to do is ignore the "troll" and not get pulled into his shit. Just get out of his house and do shit, because it's not like Caliborn can come to him. He lets Caliborn fuck with him because he secretly wants Caliborn to fuck with him and give him an excuse to be angry and get pulled into his shit.

>That's one of the main reasons stories were told in the first place.
Vriska is not fucking Beowulf user

>Gaston_transparent.png
>it's not tr

you FUCKER

She's not, and she's not a "Mary Sue," either. You all just latch on to a convenient shorthand by which to refer an obnoxious character who keeps getting away with being a cunt.

Yeah, she's a Cockslut. A total cockslut

>But then it turns out that Terezi looking into the future and seeing that if she didn't kill Vriska everyone would die was wrong. The story twists over backwards to say Vriska is the key to all of this, contradicting itself.
There is zero contradiction. The reason Vriska would have caused the death of everyone is because she would have tried to fight Bec Noir. John prevent that. There is no narrative contradiction about it and all of what you are mentioning has nothing to do with Mary Sue anyway.

And no different standards were applied here either.

You are badly remembering the whole thing just so you can stick a label that isn't even adequate to a character you don't like.

A character you don't like doesn't mean it is badly written. It's just that you don't like it.

>on his personal definition of Mary Sue.
I am actually taking the REAL definition of a May Sue, instead of trying to change it's meaning to "A competent character I don't like", like some are trying to do, nowadays.

>A character you don't like doesn't mean it is badly written.

Ah, it all comes out in the end. Behind the user concerned about the "proper definition" of the term Mary Sue is another Vriska fanboy.

Hilarious. Oh please, go on. Tell me how Act 6 Vriska is a good character. I'm DYING to know!

>Ah, it all comes out in the end. Behind the user concerned about the "proper definition" of the term Mary Sue is another Vriska fanboy.
Except not. Vriska is my least favorite character. But unlike you, I don't let my hate for her affect my objectivity.

So tell me user, how is Act 6 Vriska a good character? I mean, uh... "objectively" speaking.

...

I think what you define as Mary Sue depends on when you learned that term.

I picked up when I was first exploring English fanfiction in my early Internet days in the 2000s, and back then, the defining attributes of a Mary Sure were:

- self insert of the author
- unconditionally loved by everyone but her enemies
- can do no wrong, all powerful
- dark, tragic and troubled past

I guess the most common elements found in the varying definitions are that "they can do no wrong", are unconditionally loved and just about good at everything. But in a way where they do not feel like a real character. They need to feel fake even for a story.

Original Vriska is basically a character that behaves like an evil Mary Sue and expects the world to adjust to that. Act 6 Vriska is a weird combination of bonafide Mary Sue and Deus Ex, which Homestuck had plenty of already. The thing however is that it's not the characters liking her, but the story bending itself backwards because she is needed to win somehow.

*crickets*

...

I think if we're going to redefine Mary Sue based on how it's commonly used, we need to all admit that it means "character I don't like"

More nuanced, thought out definitions are definitely used sparingly.

It's exclusively a fanfiction term holy fuck stop it

>Tell me how Act 6 Vriska is a good character. I'm DYING to know!
Never said she was good, I said she wasn't a Mary
Sue.

My favorite moment was Vriska actually reaped out completly (Vriska) and made a wreck out of her. It would have been even better if it was Vriska instead of (Vriska), but still good.

One of the most interesting aspect about that character is that, after her death, she became ready to sacrifice everything to become relevant again. and she succeed at a very ironical cost: her own relevancy. She managed to became relevant again, and alive (ie: thnaks to her, John merge with the House cursor, which lead to him change time and preventing her death), but it turned out to be an alternate self. The one who worked so hard to get back into the game got to be served a new one by the very one she saved.

I really enjoyed that twist. But I really would like to know if current Main Vriska would get broken down if she learned the reason she is still alive is precisely because of that (Vriska) that she loathed so much. I'd really like to see that.

Homestuck had the unequivocally worst ending I have ever seen in anything

why are we still talking about it

It's obvious that Mary Sue is just "a term you don't like."

You want to drag everyone into such degrees of subjectivity that no character is bad, but that leads to no character being good either.

I disagree with people who call Roxy a Mary Sue, but I'm not going to fucking pretend I don't know what they mean when they say it. It's a commonly used, commonly understood term. Hollywood Screenwriters use it, Novelists use it, Hussie fucking used it

see

So it all boils down to the same semantical issue.

Fine, you fucking worm, name a character you WOULD consider a Mary Sue.

>it means "character I don't like"
Does it? There are lots of characters who people don't like who never get hit with the Mary Sue label. So let's stop being retarded and pretending we don't know what people mean when they call someone a "Mary Sue". We know that the term ends up being applied to characters who feel like something that came out of a crappy fanfiction, even if they're canon. A character who makes the writing feel noticeably shittier whenever the plot bends over to make them important.

There was zero semantic in anything I said.

Name a character you would consider a Mary Sue.

*crickets*
*again*

I liked the symbiosis of Vriska and Aranea's relationship in this aspect. Before Vriska came along, Aranea was content to wait for Meenah and be with her friend. Vriska wanted to defeat the final boss and regain relevance at any cost.

Ultimately, it was Aranea who achieved Vriska's goal (Even if she failed), and Vriska who got Aranea's initial desire (Becoming (Vriska)). The moment on the boat with the hug is a very story critical moment. Aranea is a truer heir to Act 5 Vriska than Vriska, as Aranea did exactly what Terezi stopped Vriska doing in the first place.

Calliope. Flawless, unconditionally loved, the key to the defeat of an undefeatable evil.

What? Her relevancy was given up because she got tired of it trying to be the hero and be relevant. There was no cost. She didn't care about how another copy of her was relevant again, but that she was relevant while still being her shitty old self.

But user, she's a main character! And as you said, main characters can't be Mary Sues!

Oh hey there's an epilogue

Oops they still don't show beating lord english

Fuck you Hussie

hussie had too little passion to really write a mary sue

> Flawless
She hid instead of helping
>unconditionally loved
Caliborn
>the key to the defeat of an undefeatable evil.
That was a completely different Calliope and that role was shared with the juju/kids

I can say I have actually encountered on in piece of actual fiction.

Having a side character growing to the point of sabotaging the story is something I am lucky to not have seen happened in work I am fan of.

Caliborn hates everything you fucking idiot

Have you not read what happened later. It's all talk, Vriska actually tell her what it is.

You definitely could bring her back, just not like that. One flying off wildly into being a shattered wreck, and the other not only not growing, but reverting back to the beginning of 5.2, with no negative consequences.

Last thing I remember from Homestuck was Caliborn making a badly-drawn parody of Act 1, Bec Noir about to fight PM and I guess Lord English was in the process of destroying the afterlife that all the dead versions of the kids from the different timelines went to? Redpill me on the ending and how it was bad.

Including Calliope, therefore, she is not unconditionally loved.