This is too fucking spooky to me. I mean some outlines of my life were probably determined before I was born - my dad being a weak cuck and my mother being a single mother for NEET-Chad's retard baby, for example. But I recognize this and can now change the course of my life, r-right?
>There’s No Such Thing as Free Will
>Saul Smilansky, a philosophy professor at the University of Haifa, in Israel, has wrestled with this dilemma throughout his career and come to a painful conclusion: “We cannot afford for people to internalize the truth” about free will.
>Smilansky is convinced that free will does not exist in the traditional sense—and that it would be very bad if most people realized this.
What's your opinion, Sup Forums? Is (((Smilansky))) right or are we free to do as we wish? Obviously, you can't become an F1 driver if you are too big, too poor and/or too old but you get what I mean.
Whether free will or fate exists doesn't matter. What probably matters more is how you feel about it. Good, bad or indifferent.
Free will "hurr I control my destiny". Determinism "hurr I am a product of cause and effect".
It's basically impossible to prove it one way or the other, so by that it doesn't matter which is which because we can't tell the difference.
Bentley Garcia
free will is a matter of perception so thats good. chance only exists through our lens
determinism is true but that does not mean morals and religon cant be as well. Most religons actually have an understanding of determinism to them( example: god knows past present and future)
well how could that be true if the future didnt happen yet?- says someone who believes in free will
-determinist will say well he knows because our paths are already done. Time is not linear so of course god can know past present and future at the same moment
Gavin Gonzalez
of course Free Will exists, we are made in his image. The problem is that you believe in only one reality out of infinite potential realities. God exists in the 6th dimension.
BTW, You died in that car accident you had 5 years ago.
Adam Roberts
To add on for thosemay object that responsibility cannot exist with determinism and therefor there cant be morality, you are half correct. There can be no self responsibility as we think of it with free will, however, there can exist morality without free will. The reason why is because the notion that can be found in the socratics and most relevent religons.
That Good=truth and bad= ignorance
note that pleasure is not in that equation at all... what is true may not always be nice but it is good because it can never be changed(hence the truth). in full truth, peace is reached because there is nothing else to desire.
and ignorance leads to delusion aka denial that you are searching for comfort in truth
Aaron Butler
I belive in the multi verese but that does not imply free will. only that all possibilites are done. There is nothing in that that implies we have a choice of what reality we are perceiving, for all timelines there are me perceiving it.
Jason Murphy
>painful >spooky if you think anything about the philosophical consideration of free will is either of those, I'm sorry but you don't understand the issue of free will
Oliver Morgan
materialism/determinism/consequentialism is what happens when you take smart people and give them a simple problem: they overthink it
we have free will, you should trust your intuition more
Sebastian Green
Those who believe the hardest in free will are the easiest to control m8.
Why do you think this is? because we are bound to our nature and very subconscious. We are not a single mind, we are a compound of desires and struggles.
You as of now are a hivemind on your own, every microorganism of your body has their own purpose you just happen to be aware that you exist.
In my opinion it doesn't matter if free will really exist or not because if free will is a wrong mindset then: "we wouldn't have control over what we do", but do we really have control? Not at all.
Accept that the question on itself doesn't matter to any of us.
The reason why we should not in any way shape or form ACCEPT that FREE WILL doesn't exist tho, is because people will start behaving like animals, just because. Look around you right now, all this degeneracy become more common becuase we give them an excuse for them to go on and just didn't care. We cannot allow ourselves not to care, but don't obsess about it either.
Jonathan Lopez
If you believe in determinism you should literally kill yourself.
Dominic Garcia
you must believe magicians are truly using magic with that logic. Follow your gut and what you see, am I right? Illusions must not exist with that mindset
why do non philosophers think they can keep up?
Jose Torres
If you want to know more about whether or not you have free will, you have to ask yourself who you are.
The more you learn about who you are as a human being, the more you will realize that everything you consider to be "personal" or a trait about "you" is actually something completely out of your control, like having a favorite color, or being white.
When you come to this realization, you can give in to your lack of pure agency, or you can start to liberate yourself.
Change yourself in the ways that are in your control, and you will become closer to yourself, and thus freer.
the simple act of you observing the world is collapsing potentials into actual realities. Just being alive and observing implies Free Will.
Aaron Wilson
Why do philosophy majors think regurgitating retarded post-modern shit means they're smart?
Liam Mitchell
Free will has literally never been defined, it is an incoherent concept. It is essentially just an amalgamation of associations tied to the two words- the sense of wanting something and doing it, various notions of moral responsibility and agency, abstract theories of causality.
In reality it is complete nonsense, if you accept that things cause each other, the entire notion completely falls apart. You can always simply ask what caused x, when someone posits an instance of free will. What caused it? Eventually what caused it will not be it if you go through enough iterations.
It persists as a meme because it is useful for social organization or something, but it is in fact not just untrue, but meaningless, it doesn't mean a fucking thing, and nobody has ever even tried to properly define or express it.
Julian Baker
quantum delayed erasers prove that although prior events cause later events, later events exist before the prior exist happens although the prior still caused the later
Michael Thompson
self-determinism
Isaiah Nguyen
> Smilansky is convinced that free will does not exist in the traditional sense—and that it would be very bad if most people realized this > picrealated.jpg
Cameron Foster
So many kikes in this thread.
Free will exists. I am an individual and i am free to decide my future.
Before all the kikes start telling me about experiments that disprove me, you need to recognize that this is a semantic/philisophical/values distinction that has nothing to do with experiments or the deterministic nature of the universe.
Josiah Green
There was a thread a while back where I btfo free will
have a game going so i cant do it here
tl;dr: free will is a fucking myth and choice is an illusion, understanding this will lead to peace
Henry Phillips
>It's basically impossible to prove it one way or the other, so by that it doesn't matter which is which because we can't tell the difference. I knew you were going to say that.
Kayden Butler
Every fucking time I watch this experiment. Spooky. The electron is 1 shy cat.
Parker Moore
The universe and by extension the human brain is simply a chain of chemical reactions. There is nothing else beyond that. Determinism is how our universe works.
Free will is simply an illusion that we possess.
Asher Roberts
The same reason the guy who calls them out on their bullshit thinks he's smart.
Ryder Davis
You HAVE free will, faggot. By definition, because "you" is the fictional "being" that is credited for the actions that your brain decides based on stimuli.
The real redpill isn't that there is no free will, but that THERE IS NO "YOU".
Benjamin Morris
I used to be a determinist, but reading up on quantum mechanics leads to the realization the world is probabilistic and not deterministic, so an argument can be made for free will
Luke Walker
bet you'd link Libet's findings and claim that as proof lmao
Michael Hall
Here's the interesting thing: we still can't simulate life.
There's been a lot of talk about when computers reach a level that has or exceeds "the power of the human brain" with the expectation that A.I. will be easy at that point but look around and tell me where my A.I. dog is. Or cat. Or gerbil. Or frog. Surely we have the power to create an artificial intelligence that works exactly like a frog.
Nope.
Not even in the ballpark.
I submit to you that life is something that will continue to be outside of our understanding. The day we create an A.I., we will open it up, tear it down and still not understand how it worked.
If it followed simple rules and algorithms, we should be able to simulate that right now. Maybe slower, on less powerful computers, but the programming itself should be possible.
It's not, because living intelligence is doing something more than the physics suggest. We could assemble a machine with all of the connections of a frog brain and it would not be a frog. It would just be a dead thing sitting there.
We don't yet understand what life is.
I would speculate that if we can imagine a God who sees everything and knows the exact state of every particle in the universe right now, even He could not predict your next move. Life is something outside of physics.
Oliver Jones
To deny determinism is to deny causality.
Landon Lopez
It's a matter of perspective. If you think there is no free will than you assert that if you have enough knowledge you can predict the future including your own. Having that knowledge lets you act on it, thus allowing you you to make decision you wouldn't make without it. Other people don't have free will from your perspective though.
Bentley Howard
The ego is our mind's greatest illusion.
Adam Powell
Free will vs determinism debate is a just word game like most philosophy
Nathan Price
>You HAVE free will, faggot. By definition, because "you" is the fictional "being" that is credited for the actions that your brain decides based on stimuli.
This is correct and you make me proud by saying it.
>The real redpill isn't that there is no free will, but that THERE IS NO "YOU".
This disappoints me as it is also a matter of definition.
Brandon Roberts
You just fucked me up.
Nicholas Baker
damn really made me think
you really thought this one through
(lol)
Ethan Smith
Nobody actually believes this obvious nonsense, right?
Joseph Johnson
Thats what beer does to me my friend
Carson Jackson
That's quantum for you
Jacob Thompson
>It's basically impossible to prove it one way or the other, so by that it doesn't matter which is which because we can't tell the difference. >causality is impossible to prove Well, ok
Brandon Jones
Has not a fucking thing to do with what I said. You can't even define the thing, because it means nothing
I've become extremely unfazable about most topics but this free will shit never fails to irritate me
Just fucking define it if it is real
Parker Gonzalez
No, it doesn't. Read the article you yourself posted.
Jason Cox
it literally does
Zachary Barnes
The world is, but you cannot know it; the narrative is not, but is all you can know. Everything you see and do and everything you are is a story you tell yourself in your head. Determinism or free will? Neither, because they are both stories and the world is not a story of determinism or will; and both, because the narrative is a recursion, and you have stopped it at a dialectic. Everything is a story and all stories expand around an intent. In the story to an intent, there is the free will of the intent, but the determinism of whether the narrative will continue or be stopped by the world. That is the recursion.
However, the world is. The world is neither determined nor subject to will because both of those are stories, not the world. Stories don’t exist; only the world exists, and the world doesn’t need stories.
Without the story, there is no story to compare the world to to see if it succumbed to your will. Without the story, there is no story to be stopped by the world that determines whether the story is useful to be believed. Without the world, there is nothing to appear to make stories.
All of these questions come up because you don’t know the story of story making, and think that time and space and matter and energy and purpose and cause and effect and statistical inference and feelings and senses Exist. They do not. They are stories.
Matthew Edwards
>Quatum randomness leads to free will >Random = the power to act at one's own discretion Kys.
Alexander Clark
What the fuck is this bullshit.
We are literally meatsacks with electricity firing off inside of brains. That's it.
We know exactly what life is, this is so fucking retarded I think I got less intelligent by reading it.
Unless you have some kind of bizarre definition of "life" that you've personally made up to use as an argument in this specific case, then yes, humans know exactly what life is.
No, we haven't simulated it perfectly yet in the form of an AI. But we have successfully cloned animals. General AI is not just "simple rules and algorithms". The human brain is immensely complex and duplicating it is not a "simple process"; why would you even try to imply that it is? Further, we aren't creating "humans 2.0". General AI would be a completely new form of life. It would be, by definition an entirely new and unknown life form. That is exactly why existential debates exist about whether we should create it at all.
General AI is coming, though, unless we nuke ourselves back to the stone ages before then.
Elijah Bailey
>Just fucking define it if it is real Free will is the ability to choose an action and subsequently affect the future.
James Young
Thats not how it works retard.
To simulate life you need to simulate chemistry and physics. We lack processing power to do anything like that in real time.
Josiah Wood
>666
Daniel Cruz
Most determinists are deeply entrenched on their materialist turf (see what people are arguing here). Don't fight them there because you will always lose. Materialism implies determinism. Bring them out.
Landon Perez
It literally doesn't. The article itself argues against this claim, read references 22 and 23.
You are relying on fringe interpretations of the experiment.
Evan Walker
Free will and determinism are not mutually exclusive. This is an incredibly difficult concept to grasp though, most people never get it.
I like to use the example of a wild hungry dog and a steak. If you throw a steak at wild hungry dog, the dog will choose to eat the steak every single time, it is simply inevitable. This can be extrapolated into every single thing we think or do. We are who we are, and our environment is what it is, so the choices we make and their outcomes will always be the same. But that does not mean we do not choose of our own free will, just that our free will is predictable to the point of true determination.
Grayson Miller
you don't realize how swindled you've been by sensationalist popsci youtube videos the retrocausal account of quantum erasers is nothing but a cutesy a trick it's only made possible because there's a coincidence counter after the fact see arxiv.org/abs/1112.4522
Jaxson Brown
>physics is nonsense found the philosophy major
Daniel Myers
I believe in the collective free will of humanity. Whether nihilists wants to believe it or not, we are unique and exceptional as a species in that we not only have the will to survive, but we have the ability to combat any threat that isn't ourselves. We've been so good at this, that in order to maintain progress, we have has to combat ourselves so that we do no stagnate.
Cooper Hill
>philosophy is physics found the moron
Leo Bell
ive read that journal before and its doesnt disprove the results of the experiment
determinism is more pop-sci
Luke Ramirez
you write words, but apparently can't read them because you failed to address any part of my argument. you were literally unable to respond in any intellectual way... i suppose you can keep replying with insults or whatever, but tag me if you happen to have anything resembling a counter-point. >what is physics lol freshmen philosophy majors - i'm cringing for you little guy.
Jackson Torres
Determinism, IMO, is for people who take science as the new great religion of the land. Science is....well....let me say this, science focuses primarily on the physical, observable universe, to a detriment to realizing the possibility of any kind of intangible nature to reality. If you look at the general theory of relativity, it is all based upon our perspective as human beings.
That said, in Taoism they say, blame others and there is no end to the blame. That is basically determinism, and endless blaming that goes back to the beginning of time. You have agency as a being. I will not get into any spiritual concepts here, because i don't know what your views on life are, but I will say, you can change your destiny, you can change your behavior, you can change the world. There are things outside of your control, but there are also many things you have control over.
Here is a song that explains it very well. It is about the nature of duality, and the will.
You're saying that video was physics. It wasn't. It was philosophy.
True they showed the results of one experiment, but the point was to tell you a philisophical outlook on what it meant.
the entanglement experiment was incorrectly described because their intention was to communicate something about their worldview.... not anything to do with physics.
Lucas Ross
>we are made in his image Then god is not omnipotent
Leo Gutierrez
>an object in motion will stay in motion
>lol unless its a really small object and approaches two slits unobserved!
William Cook
Of course there's no such thing as free will, the world and everything in it including out brains and minds works according to a set of physical laws which determine the future states of the universe based on the past states. Even if there is some "true" randomness/uncertainty, no individual is in control of it's outcome.
Ayden Powell
>we are made in his image >god is omnipotent in our universe
Because we live in matrix created by humans.
They can make literally anything happen in the simulation if they wish.
William Wilson
>its doesnt disprove the results of the experiment Of course you nigger, it's there to explain to you how the retrocausal account is not necessary to obtain the experimental results. You didn't even get what the paper was about, shit.
Lincoln Gray
bingo
and no you illiterate quantum physics "scientists"
quantum physics is no where even near completed so to say chance exists based off of the knowledge we know now is stupid.
Everything effect must have a cause prior. Even if you argue cause and effect doesnt exist because time isn't linear, there is a reason why time isnt linear you fuckwads.
Lucas Taylor
i believe that we have "free will" in the sense that there's an element of randomness in our decisions
there is no evidence that that we live a purely deterministic existence, as in what behaviorism posits
Nolan Hall
circular reasoning
Jaxson Williams
>what is physics >that isn't physics omg it keeps getting better
Christian Parker
Wow, no coherent rebuttal from the moron. Who thinks he's a physicist.
Color me surprised.
Camden Watson
This.
Causality rules that free will in the intuitive form makes no sense. Fortunately people nowadays define free will as "being able to make rational choices" which is compatible with both determinism and indeterminism.
Brayden Edwards
>You are a faggot >you will always be a faggot >you might try to stop being a faggot >but you can't >you think to yourself >"I'm not a faggot, I like pussy now." >" I AM in control of my fate " >but you can't fool us >the faggotry is in your dna >you were born a bottom bitch >and you'll die with a dick in your mouth
An essay on determinism, featuring OPs faggotry
Brandon Lewis
Homosexuality is a choice though.
Dominic Bennett
F-fuck y-you...
Andrew White
we live in a world of potentials ruled by the observer (You) and his free will. Don't discount your own conscious mind as nothing. have some self-worth user. >in his image >unshakable faith >this thread >MFW
Justin Rivera
the bantz
Benjamin Powell
which you were determined to do so
what you are arguing are the benefits of the illusion of free will
Xavier Foster
If we say that there's determinism then we cannot hold niggers accountable for their actions at all. Just more fuel for liberals to blame black problems on white people.
Sebastian Martinez
Sam Harris actually argues that.
Adam Jenkins
>what you are arguing are the benefits of the illusion of free will No particularly what I meant. I am much rather talking about the benefits of redefining what free will actually means.
Ryan Allen
Both. Free will and determinism are compatible depending on your understanding of time and the universe.
We have free will but it's ultimately already written in the fourth dimension. We're hamsters on a hamster wheel, always were and always will be. Forever.
Nicholas James
>free will in the intuitive form makes no sense. I think the intuitive form is the same as the modern form except that there's no explicit appeal to a "soul".... (although there's an implicit one)
Josiah Turner
Did the brain desire the dick or did the dick activate a predetermined desire to suck?
Robert Mitchell
Determinism is an excuse of a weak mind that fears responsibility and dislikes the idea of consequence.
Juan Gomez
Just remember, harris is a kike who, deep in his jewish heart, wants to destroy western values.
If you take away the concept of free will and self ownership, you undermine western philosophy at its core.
Elijah Richardson
Well if you carefully read the term one would assume that we are talking about a unconstrained will. I can see how the modern interpretation is actually as intuitive, but I was focusing on the words themselves.
Aaron Hernandez
fucking useless pothead
Lucas Rodriguez
>Hey you're not poor and stupid because you made poor life decisions and surrounded yourself with the wrong people Tyrone. It's because of the evil rich white man! You are responsible for nothing! It's all whitey's doing.
Determinism is inherently anti-white
Zachary Rogers
P1. Free will is incompatible with causality. P2. There is no reason to believe causality is false. C. There is no reason to believe in free will.
That being said, what we would think "free will" means may be indistinguishable from the deterministic behavior of our minds, and it is unlikely that we will ever be able to predict with any certainty human events on a macro level with the laws of physics or other sciences.
Nathan Phillips
>it's already written in the 4th dimension infinitely different outcomes - or multiverse - are already written in the 5th dimension. to an uncreated creator in a higher dimension than that (6th+)... well then they'd be omnipresent & omnipotent. >let there be light 1DDDDD D D D D
Luis Jenkins
The determinist, Atheist, nihilist should be exterminated. It couldn't happen soon enough
Alexander Scott
>5th dimension
My bad, always confuse the two.
M-Theory really freaks me out sometimes.
Adrian Thompson
honestly the existence of determinism shouldn't even be a philosophical question.
It's the kind of thing that is a matter of fact for science to settle.
The proper regime of philosophy is the same as religion: to talk about things that have nothing to do with science and can never be proved one way or the other.
Hunter Gomez
user, you're alive in this reality, what are you going to do with your fleeting time?
Isaiah Diaz
this story is already written in the 4th dimension (entirety of time played out), a very similar but slightly different reality exists in the 5th dimension (along with every other similar story).
Jaxon Evans
I don't know what to call what I believe. I believe I have a choice to do anything, but for some reason no matter what my choice is I always end up succeeding. I mean, I did shitty in school because I never did any of the homework, spent four years traveling around the United States, and then applied to state university as a joke to get my parents off my back and tell them it would be too expensive for me to get a higher education only to wind up with a full-ride scholarship to earn two degrees in business simultaneously.
I like to believe in free will, but at the same time how can I not believe that there's some higher power who keeps making things go right for me no matter my decisions?
Jonathan Smith
If our stories are already written in a dimension "we" have no access to in our own three leads me to believe compatibilism is the most rational approach.
Blake Clark
Determinism in the way that is said there is stupid.
However everything that was going to happen will happen because of physics. You are matter and once something has been set in motion it will happen. Life is unpredictable but predetermined because you make choices.
It's like that quote, "every moment in my life has lead me to this point" and it's true it did, and it will be the same. If you were born again under the EXACT same conditions, as in everyone around you is born the exact same time etc etc. then everything will happen in the exact same way. Our thinking doesn't break some supernatural barrier. You are where you are because of yesterday, and if you were to be put in the shoes of your yesterday you would do the same thing because that's what you did. That doesn't mean you should give a shit though, you should always try your best.
It's kinda like the lottery, it's not actually "random" it's just so unpredictable it may as well be. But if you were to put all the balls in the exact same position, roll the wheel at the exact same speed, you would get the exact same numbers.
