Why does the original Avengers line up sucks?

Why does the original Avengers line up sucks?

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Because it was literally "Let's put together a bunch of heroes on a team that would be hard to write."

Hulk wasn't even an Avenger, he was just kind of there and was fighting other Avengers more than the villains.

Because fuck you Justice League, that's why.

yeah, Hulk shouldn't be there, Everyone else is GOAT

Because those were the only heroes at the time Marvel could pit on a team.

The only other heroes at the time we're Spider-Man (seen as a menace), The Fantastic Four (already a team), and the X-Men (a combination of both).

Hell, even the X-Men made more sense back in the day when the only people with genuine superpowers were media darlings like the FF and an actual god. Everyone else who wasn't a dude in a suit was a freakish monster to the public.

Because Avengers suck

No Cap.

No niggers.

No Goku.
How could they fuck up this badly by forgetting to include their biggest hero?

Would Goku be a good Avenger?

Because it was literally "let's put all the heroes we have right now that aren't on a team together except for Spider-Man".

...Probably? He would be practically powerless since it's not the DB universe, but he's still an accomplished martial artist.

Because Hercules didn't join yet. Now that's what I call a team.

...

Practically.

I mean, is Iron Fist the muscle in the Heroes-for-Hire?

But that's why they're so good.

>He would be practically powerless since it's not the DB universe

I don't think there's anything that explicitly states that "ki" or something extremely similar doesn't exist in the Marvel universe.

Stark considers Hulk a founding member, and said once that he thought of themselves as The Beatles of the superheroes.

Also, I think he pulled rank during Operation Galactic Storm, saying he was a founding member, and Captain America wasn't.

heroes for hire is a 'muscle and more muscle' operation

>the poor man's Reed Richards
Stark lol.

>file name
But that's Shang Chi.

have you never read a single marvel comic? There are a ton of martial artist heroes in the unvierse that very explicitily use Ki.

Because Ant-Man is just Wasp but less useful, and Iron man's suit was shit.

They were much better when Hank and Tony upgraded and Cap joined the team.

To the contrary, we know it exists. But it doesn't make its users into Superman-level powerhouses. Examples: Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Temugin (Baby Mandarin). Hence why Goku would be a martial artist, but not particulary powerful.

Yeah, and Iron Fist is not the 'more muscle'.

Oh please. Reed may be smarter (debatable, after Extremis), but he's scatterbrained. Faced with the same problem, Reed would see 100 new avenues of thought, and Tony would just fix it.

Pym is there so it's perfect. Just swap out ironman for fem ultron, thor for vision and hulk for wonderman

>Iron man's suit was shit.

In what sense?

It looked dumb

no it did not

The origional iron giant suit? Yeah it did. He had worse over the years like absuit. But it was bad

How'd it suck?

>Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Temugin (Baby Mandarin)
All three of those guys aren't also Saiyans

Man now I can't help but imagine Goku having spars with Odinson Thor (assuming Goku keeps his powers).

It has no theme and coherency
Badly put together

...No appreciation for the classics.

Neither are Krillin, Yamcha, Videl and Ten-Shin-Han.

That's like making fun of a cave painting.

Why hasn't there been a Thor v Goku meme like Superman v Thor and Thor v Superman. Complete the trinity

Not the art but the whole concept of the team

Doesn't it make sense? In any case, the concept of separately-created heroes forming a team predates the Avengers by about 20 years.

they were made by assembling all their B-material

and as a little kid, i never thought they sucked, i thought they all just needed a chance to shine

Is he wearing a skirt?

>Also, I think he pulled rank during Operation Galactic Storm, saying he was a founding member, and Captain America wasn't.
TOPKEK

>all their B-material

Are you on crack?

A kilt. I am guessing to protect the complex groin assembly.

this was when the F4 and X-men were their big guns

F4 and Spiderman. X-men were bad then. I think Hulk was probably their 3rd biggest at that point

The theme was "characters that could use a boost in popularity".
FF sold well enough to have its own comic. Spider-Man sold well enough to have its own comic. The Avengers was an extra marketing outlet to give everyone who was still milling around anthology titles some more exposure.
Then The Defenders came along and did the same thing with whoever was left. Only guy conspicuous by his autonomy was Daredevil. Maybe because he had his own comic from the get-go, idk. Makes me wonder how popular he was in the 60s. Captain Marvel stayed solo too I guess but he didn't have the same pedigree and was purely created to IP-squat.

Hulk got cancelled in 6 issues. He needed to cameo in everyfuckingbookunderthesun (Avengers being one of them) before they were confident enough to even give him half a comic again.

that is joke, yes

Reed is just better than Stark, better than eveyone really, in every way.
Better.

Also, pertaining to OP's pic: anyone have the deja vu page from Thunderstrike?
Windows 10 updated and now I can't attach files to posts, otherwise I'd share it myself.

Fantastic Four and ASM were the big books for them throughout the 60's.

>Neither are Krillin, Yamcha, Videl and Ten-Shin-Han.

and one of them are Superman-tier powerhouses. There are tons of mediocre ki-users in DBZ.

Because they were a bunch of characters barely able to hold an ongoing book, where most of them ended up folding into one of the anthology titles they had at the time. And since Marvel could only publish 8 monthly books at the time, teams were the easiest way to go

I don't think that's the answer Sue would give.

Or was that a 'Secret Wars' joke?

Ah, so it is something else that makes Saiyans as powerful as they are?

Daredevil was dead. Thr only reason they gave him to frank miller was cause he never sold, ever

Also yeah, X-Men were pretty B-list in the 60s. It's themes drew a dedicated core fanbase but most just stuck to FF or Avengers. It even skirted cancellation, a good chunk of early 70s Uncanny X-Men issues are just reprints of earlier issues.
It was Wein reinvigorating the team into a diversity brigade that shook it out of the slump and got people paying attention again. And Chris Claremont becoming writer that kept the momentum going/increasing.

>Ah, so it is something else that makes Saiyans as powerful as they are?

Not really. Just ki and knowledge.

It took Roshi 100 years to perfect the kamehameha wave and Goku got it down in 30 seconds. Krillin soon after.

Maybe ki users in the Marvel universe are just doing it wrong.

Doubly weird that they never put him on a team book then.
Was he just meant to fill a separate niche? Were they obligated to keep publishing him for contractual reasons?

They didn't even think he was worth a team book. An to be fair he wasn't, not then. Hell, Hank Pym had a lot of Tales To Astonish build up that people liked but not enough to have a solo.

I still think his Tales to Astonish were better than those old Avenger

they are but its not exactly a super high bar

Which begs the question of why they thought he was worth continuing to publish.

X-Men lasted for like 50 issues before reprints. Hulk only got 6 before getting cancelled.

>And since Marvel could only publish 8 monthly books at the time
?
Details? News to me.

Weren't most of those just reprints of the first 6 issues though? They redid those so fucking much at the time. Marvel was weird at the time. I like Tales to Astonish snd the random stories you get

I always tend to think the Avengers need to be a minimum power level to be the main team of the setting that stops anything that comes and starts some shit on Earth.

Never liked it when the team had a lot of street level or powerless members.

I still like the tiers with the team. With
>Cap, Thor, and Iron Man
>Vision, Wasp, Scarlet Witch
and then that wildcard level with random extras. Typically only like 1 of them at a time and it is constantly rotating.
>Wonder Man, Carol, Quasar, Photon, Namor, Black Panther, Hawkeye,

I always thought Giant Man was even more useless than Ant Man.

He's a guy who makes himself into a very large target. His deal is being a strong guy, but he is not nearly as strong or tough as Thor or Iron Man, Not as fast as them either and cannot fly. Most other strong guys are better than him. Like Namor or Carol. He's just some really tall guy.

Temugin can make himself into Iron Man levels with chi. But no one in the setting has done wacky shit like fly or blow up moons.

Goku would be much more like his older Dragonball incarnation. Maybe with the power pole and nimbus. He is bulletproof and can lift enormous boulders. He would easily be in the high mid superhero tier with his mystic stuff.

So be a DBZ style character he would need some Nega Bands, power cosmic, Power Gem, or be in the same accident as Photon.

Roshi blew up the damn moon in the second storyarc. Non saiyans can be tough too.

Marvel and DC have tons of chi users. The main difference is that none of them shoot chi out of their hands at all. So all they build upon are strength, durability and healing, sometimes not needing to eat food any longer.

I would love to see them go the original Dragonball route and make it the mystic martial arts type if Dragonball characters were introduced. Like training with demons, gaining mystic weapons of the gods to use and then getting magical help like nimbus, or other magical things to amp up their power like the mystic water,

Thor and Iron Man can't stamp on people though

You do realize that there are sales numbers from the 60s released? Apparently Avengers were selling averagely only 5k better than X-Men

Their top guns from 60s were
1)Spider-Man
2)FF
3)Thor (to my own surprise)

Those same people cannot just shoot Thor and Iron Man at the same time and hurt them.

Also with Giant Man being huge, they do not really need to aim either.

Agreed. Giantman is only interesting as a character development not as a powerset (except for wasp). As antman the ants are far more interesting and shoe his intrlligence better

Because of Iron Man's suit

Was this Kirby Thor? Cause that may be why

So Pym is Yoko?

Yes. Kirby's Thor

At least they had some self control then.

also, if someone wants to check the sales himself
here is the link
comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

He was just there for one day and then fucked off until the MCU happened and synergy made him an Avenger again.

Hulk was more of a Defender than Avenger anyway.

Also that pulling rank thing was shit, Cap might not be a founding member but he carried that team when the founding members bailed on him and he shaped up 3 former villains into heroes while he did it. He is more of an Avenger than Hulk.

Checked comicvine earlier due to this thread. The first reprint issue (#66ish) was a story from the mid-#10s.

>implying thor isn't marvel's best character

>that last fucking line
ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER

Thor never felt like a Marvel character to me, I was big on Norse mythology as a kid before I got into comics and felt like he seemed out of place in that universe. Same with Hercules.

Hulk would be a better choice than Thor

Honestly, I feel the same way about the rest. Thor belongs in mythology adventures, Ant-Man/Wasp belong in mad scientist pulp, Hulk in fantastical, sci-fi horror.

Iron Man is the only who struck me as a cape for some reason. Yet they all get roped together under one banner.

Avengers had symbiotic support from 3+ other ongoings, by design. I guess that added some leeway, it was part of a larger web of books that held each other up. X-Men, at the time, was just the one stand-alone series.
>3)Thor (to my own surprise)
No shit? That's awesome. Thor's my bae. It's downright confusing to see how often he gets shafted compared to Cap & Tony.
Also hey, that finally explains why Journey Into Mystery's second feature was just more Thor. That mystery's been bugging me for ages. Thanks user.

>implying anyone would imply something so silly

I can understand this feeling in that Marvel never clearly explained "gods". To this day, the most concise guide to what they are and where they came from is one Mark Gruenwald issue from the fucking 80s. And it still left some bigass inconsistencies that remain unresolved.
That was the fun of it!

>Daredevil was #4
Well dip me in honey and throw me to the gays.

Very true, in regards to the fun of it.

Can't speak for all classic Avengers, but I really feel like the concept fell apart when the numbers started pilling into the dozens later on.

I've always liked the close-knit misfit group archetype, which is why the first ensemble did work so well, considering the different worlds they came from.

My only thought was I wish their solo stuff matched more of what I said earlier, the closest I can think is JiM and even Aaron's much earlier work, and the best of that isn't even Thor's anymore. That world though would be perfect for him to return to.

>Sup Forums reading comics
not even once

And they only did that because Daredevil #1 wasn't going to be ready to ship so they had to rush something to print

>but I really feel like the concept fell apart when the numbers started pilling into the dozens later on.
You read Busiek/Perez Avengers?
You'd have fuckin' lark with the first few issues.

I didn't know that either.
All sorts of lernding in this thread!

had a bad deal with dc
look it up

Were Wasp and Pym married there?

Don't think that happened until like a dedcade later. IIRC the Yellowjacket wifebeater thing happened fresh off the marriage.

so does iron man... sci-fi
but thats the beauty of comics