Arrival

So learning a language lets Amy Adams time travel? How does that make any sense?

The real question is that if the aliens could already time travel and had knowledge of the future, why the fuck didn't they just learn human language(s)--we even saw them at the UN--instead of playing stupid and nearly causing a huge war with nukes?

because it didn't let her travel in time, it let her see future events, she couldn't change anything

It's not time travel, it's perceiving time non-linearly. Are you time traveling when you remember what you did yesterday? No. It's the same as that, except she can see forwards in time too.

Here's my controversial take on the movie:

Amy Adams is a moron. The aliens SHOWED her the future ffs, they literally showed her that if she had a kid with Renner it'd get cancer and die, yet she hid it from him and had the fucking kid anyway.

They tried to fucking warn her, "look, here's your miserable life if you fuck that dude", and she did it anyway.

No wonder they flew away. Yeah, er, see you in 3000 years, bitch. Yeah right. Dumb fuck. They ain't coming back. She fucking doomed us to extinction because she was starving for a baybay.

You're still thinking linearly. You have to be thinking from both directions at once to understand.
She's not time travelling but the language has influenced the way she thinks. Allowing her to access some ability that humans all seem to have but never accessed it because of the limitations of human language/thought.

Sapir whorf.

Fucking hell

TIME?

Because the more you think about it, the less sense it makes, which should be expected from any time travel movie.

I tend to hate movies that try to deal with concepts that we don't understand - such as time travel - because we don't fucking understand them, and making a film out of it, dealing with the ideas as if we had a clue, only highlights the silliness, making an otherwise solid sci-fi into poor fantasy. I genuinely think this movie is Villeneuve's lowest point. It was dull and generic in every way that matters.
I suppose I'm thankful for the line "Abbott is death process". Fits right in with "john is kill" and "who was phone".

Then how did she get time travel visions before starting to learn the language?

bandits

Because TIME TRAVEL LMAO

The point was to teach humans to understand their language so that they could gain the ability to do time shenanigans themselves. Did you somehow miss that admittedly ham-fisted line about learning other languages changing the way you think?
Haha there was literally no time travel in this film did you even pay attention?

Are you retarded? It's because those aliens could see the future so they already knew that it won't really cause a war and they probably did what they did to manipulate events in the far future.

they didn't show her a future she could avoid, they didn't even show her any future. They showed her how to see the future, as it will happen, and will always happen. It didn't matter if she knew about the kid getting cancer or not, there was nothing she could do about it.

Why does it not make sense?
its an alien species

Time travel, time whatever, Christ. Non-linear time, is that better?

I took it as learning the language changed the perception of time dimensionality in your mind, allowing you to see the future, but it is also a bit retroactive, meaning that the time close to the "point" zero when she started learning the language would also feel the effect.

Why cause so much stress and chaos when they could have learned a human language, communicated their intentions, and then taught humans their language in order to change the way humans perceive time then? It was shitty and stupid.

Arrival is part of a recent series of movies I'd describe as Dunning-Kruger Sci-Fi. Along with Interstellar and to a somewhat lesser extent The Martian, they perfectly play to the crowd that fancies themselves as (and, to be fair, may truly be) smarter than average audiences but are not as smart as genuinely "smart people." They are movies designed to make the audience feel smart by introducing complicated and heady concepts, and then holding the viewer's hand the entire way through until there is next to nothing to be left up to interpretation.

If you didn't already know the twist in Arrival by the time she was in the milky section of the ship with the aliens AT LEAST, you perfectly fit the audience I am talking about.

There is no reward for being smart while viewing these movies because everything is eventually spelled out in big fridge magnet letters. Any clever idea is made so transparent that even the most simple in the audience will get it. It also removes any reward for rewatching or trying to figure out what you just saw.

Granted, there is a difference between Arrival and Interstellar. I think where Interstellar was pretending to have a brain it actually didn't have, Arrival has a brain that it is refusing to let the audience use.

Completely disappointing movie.

Also
>so that just happened

I'm not autistic enough to want to answer this

>there was nothing she could do about it
She could have not fucked Jeremy Renner and had the cancer kid. Simple.

If you saw yourself crossing a road today and getting hit by a car are you gonna go out tempt fate or are you gonna stay the fuck home and avoid dying?

>gee dude, i am going to have a child who is going to die kek, i should still have it even tho i know she is gonna die, lol also why did my husband left me after i told him this??? derpz

great movie

imagine you were a feral kid raised by wolves. You've never learned the concept of language except a few body language cues from your fosterparents (you can tell when wolves are sad, angry...).
Now some humans find you and teach you their language.
You learn a lot of new concepts you could have never even imagined before, like the concept of actively being able to plan for the future, by imagining where you are now, where you want to be and laying out the steps you need to take to get there. BOOM! you now have basically a superpower from the standpoint of the feral kid.

>woman
>feels over logic

Pretty accurate actually.

you're not getting it. She didn't gain the sight of possible futures, she gain the sight of THE FUTURE. What she saw was what would happen, and nothing else could happen. She didn't gain the power to affect the future, only to see it. That kid would always be born, just as abbott would have always died because of the explosion.

Same here, time travel is a really shitty concept especially when they try to change the past to change the future. The worst offenders are those "We moved in time but not in space". The whole fucking universe moves constantly. If you move in time but not in space, 99,9% you'll end up floating in vacuum and that 0,1% you'll end up inside of something and you'll die too.

So seeing the future removed her free will?

that's the thing, you're seeing it from the perspective of a permavirgin basement dweller. She was overwhelmed with emotion from what just happened, from experience a life she hasn't lived yet, etc etc etc, that to her, it was worth living through it. She couldn't escape that fate, it's what would have happened eternally

>aliens are super fucking advanced
>the humans are the ones who have to learn their language, rather than the other way around

Heptopods probably could have learnt english in a fuckin day.

>language allows you to break laws of physics

Good call.

if you want to look at it that way.

You're just not good enough at suspension of disbelief. There's so many things to focus on while you watch a movie, you should I try to forsee the next step of the plot?

Well the important thing is that you found a way to feel superior to them.

she had the choice, she even did it with a smile on her face, she played the kid into believing she would grow up to be something, she should be prosecuted and executed like the murder she is

>she had the choice
she didn't

i didnt see anyone pointing a gun to her head

The aliens couldn't see the future the same way the humans isn't stuck in the same point of time, we as species are so wastley mind-boggling different that to see reality from their point of wiew is to see reality as they see it. Boom

>language allows you to break the known laws of physics
FTFY

*why should I

stop saying boom you reddit cringemaster

No. Boom.

It's more about being able to suddenly percieve (new) ways on how to do certain things.
In the context of the movie humans and probably all sapient species have the inherent potential to see time non-linearly, they just have to realize it first

this is a stupid game I don't want to play.

>it was worth living through it
That's what I got from both the original story and the movie, though in the story her daughter died in an accident as a young adult

They needed humans to work together to help them in the future.
To do so they had to fece them with a challenge they could resoleve only uniting

yes she had a choice to change future events, she let them occur, which is why everyone hated her for it
but because she perceived time differently, to her, it wasn't the end of her daughters life that mattered , she did time travel, within her own life

the intro to the movie explains all this, maybe you niggers need to go rewatch it before trying to dictate bullshit caveats to characters motivations that never fucking existed

its a pasta

That whole concept is retarded though. If you see the future, you can try to change the future and it stops being the future.

so the lesson is

>women are selfish creatures who will have a child even though they literally know he is going to die to an illness because to her it was worth living through it

wew lad, awesome movie

kek never seen it before desu

Being able to percieve the future like it was part of her, like memories, made her already love the child she didnt yet had.
I suppose having the child was, for her, like reuniting with a lost one.

In the end she thought the love that she could take from, and give to, her child was worth the child's death and her and her husband's suffering

Many of the laws of physics, specially many topics in quantum electrodynamics are indistinct of the arrow of time, so those processes are in theory reversible and indistinct of which value/sign you apply to time.

But obviously you can't break an egg and then unbreak it. The increase of entropy is not reversable without using energy from outside the system, but purely "abstract" processes may be.

Now its a question on whether the mind is a purely physical process (in which physical changes are practically unreversible), or if its nature is sort of a field that spans across space with concentrations on sufficiently complex areas (e.g. brain which has a fractal dimension > 2) (and in which transformations/changes could be time indistinct).

Don't say its breaking the laws of physics when we don't really even know what time is.

Obviously this is plain sci-fi storytelling and most likely not how reality "works" but just don't just say "breaking the laws of physics" when our current understanding of them, specially the nature of time is not very well understood.

Heck it may not even exist and be an illusion due to the perceived change of physical systems with entropy increasing, and it all exist at once, but us only perceiving a "moving frame" in the direction of change because its "what makes sense to us".

yeah, you're right with that one. I am still not sure how much "freedom" you have once you get timevision.
Either you can actively change your future and see several possible futures or you live a completely and absolutely deterministic life.

>In the end she thought the love that she could take from, and give to, her child was worth the child's death and her and her husband's suffering
Further confirming she was an awful person.

>Now its a question on whether the mind is a purely physical process
Yes, it is.

[citation needed] :^)

It doesn't, it's a shit movie for retards.

Then why is Back to the Future so good?

I don't need to disprove some esoteric bullshit about perception that came out of human exceptionalism.

...

A good time travel movie sets up its own rules since time travel in itself is already a fantastical topic.

I think he's making his argument retardedly.

What I think he is trying to get at is that in her case, knowing the consequences of having the kid wasn't going to deter her from doing it.
It's not like dying in a car accident where there is just a complete 100% negative. It's more like going to a great party even though you know you'll end up hungover the next morning.
At least, I think that's what he means... I only saw the movie once, and I didn't really like it so I haven't thought much about it myself.

Yeah, you could see it that way.

BUT

Even if we dont think about it, we know that the act itself of living our lives implies that in the years to come we're gonna suffer, and we're gonna make others suffer, and we're gonna have kids who will also experience misery in their lives and that will eventually die, making others suffer and so on and so on.
You get my point.

So, are you gonna stop living right here to prevent all this suffering? Are you gonna kill yourself? Are you not gonna have kids?

Amy Adams situation in the movie is a bit too extreme because she is ABSOLUTELY conscious of all of this, but I don't think she can be blamed much more than every other human or parent that's ever existed

I'm sick and fucking tired of these retarded fucking idiots like yourself who keep autistically whining how time travel didn't make sense in a movie or a tv show.
Hey, retard, it isn't real, you understand? You wrote we don't understand time travel. Don't understand! Time travel! Hey, imbecile it's not real! It's like complaining that a movie didn't portray vampire physiology correctly, they don't exist. Time travel doesn't exist! Not in theory, not anywhere! If you watched a couple of science shows about cosmos and know think that it could be real, it's not, not in the way you thing it could!

It removed her illusion of free will. Just as we don't really have it, either. Tomorrow somebody will do or say something and based on your past experiences you will act accordingly. Amy Adams in this movie can just see it before it happens.

You're gonna look so stupid when they do invent time travel

Fucking brainlets the entire point was teaching humans the language, why the fuck would they learn ours? To tell us to learn theirs?

Yes. When they showed up humans were naturally frightened and confused, they could have just said why they were there and told everyone why they should learn the alien language and how instead of wasting everyone's time.

spoiler alert, the aliens were evolved humans from the future. their ship never leaves orbit at the end, it just travels to their future

>why should I try to forsee the next step of the plot
The point is that you don't have to TRY to forsee it. The twist in Arrival is telegraphed half the movie before it happens. It's painfully obvious.
Nevertheless, I somewhat agree with it. Arrival was obviously designed to make the average person feel smarter than they are. As a side-effect, it is hilariously predictable for people who actually pay attention to what they're watching and have slightly better than average pattern recognition skills. The biggest culprits were Jeremy Renner's voiceover around 15 minutes in that spells out in capital letters that "THE ALIENS CAN SEE THE FUTURE" and the scene where Amy Adams' character tells her daughter to "ask daddy if you want to talk about science" that obviously points to Jeremy Renner's scientist character being her father. At that point in the movie you don't have to predict further plot developments, they're right in front of you. All that remains is a slow wait until the point when the director decides to "reveal" the "twist" that he so meticulously worked to spoil an hour before.

In other words, Villeneuve is trying to put in a single viewing the experience of rewatching a movie, pandering to the normies who never rewatch movies because "LOL I ALREADY KNOW HOW IT ENDS LMAO". Usually, a rewatch makes you notice all the little hints that foreshadow the twist. Villeneuve wants you to get all the hints in a single viewing. A similiar thing happens in Blade Runner 2049 when it is revealed that K is not the chosen one - instead of letting the viewer watch the movie again and surprising them with foreshadowing they didn't notice the first time around, he plays a short montage of all the hints right after revealing the twist, so that the viewer can instantly see them and applaud the director for making the viewer feel smart.

absolute bullshit

Nothing happens in the movie.

It only had 3 location.
Probably budget cuts.
No icon scenes.
Aliens design was stupid.
Americans always want the Chinese or the Russians to fire first into the spaceship so they don't take the blame

Fuck I just watched this, I've also noticed an uptick of Sicario threads, is everyone else going through Villenueve's films or have I just not noticed them until now?

>wasting everyone's time

But if they spent time learning all of Earth's languages it would waste even more time because we still have to spend time learning theirs. And they knew nothing bad would happen anyway. Abbot sure didn't seem to give a shit about death process.

their ships dont travel up, they just fade away

But that literally didn't happen in Blade Runner you fucking shitstain. There was one voice over explaining a callback and it wasn't where you said it was.

>Villeneuve film
none of his movies are good. if you disagree, you should go back to plebbit

All they needed to learn was one. If they learned, English, for example, the information they provide could easily be translated to everyone else. And they avoided nuclear war, yes, but they still caused a lot of panic and people died, so again, why not just cut to the chase and be clear from the start? Imagine all they could have learned from Abbot before death process instead of just fucking around with the basic stuff.

Yeah also why didn't the eagles just fly the ring to Mordor?

yeah, so?
What makes you believe that they are "evolved" humans? That's just a completely baseless theory and absolutely unnecessary for the plot. It's pretty reasonable to assume the aliens told the truth when they said, they are helping humanity so humanity can help them one day (which they know will come).
Plus i'm pretty sure they didn't want to rip off interstellar.

post >yfw Abbot is death process

Boom goes the dynamite.

i know it's pasta, and while it's true, this post itself is the thing it rails against

in that sense i guess it's a pretty meaningful work of art in its own right

The problem with determinism is that it has no null-hypothesis. If Amy Adams decided to not have the cancer baby then you could just say that she was fated to do that because of her vision.

>evolution
humanity evolved from monkeys and from something that dragged its ass out of the sea

>they are helping humanity so humanity can help them

think about it

their heavily polluted atmosphere

old old story, their future is fucked, they came back to a pivotal time to fix their future,

perhaps by preventing nuclear war that might have wiped out the livable atmosphere

maybe humans survived, maybe some other species survived and evolved in this new shitty atmosphere into intelligent beings

and fuck interstellar

>be super advanced alien
>learn english
>lose ability to see future and become autist

>whelp that's your own fault you fucking squid. You knew that that would happen. Just install a stronger window you fucker.

Although I've just now realized that Villeneuve might have been trying to go meta, as since the movie is about seeing future events, seeing future plot developments way before they happen makes the audience experience the same thing the main character experiences. So either the movie is base, or it's genius. Fuck, I gotta watch all his other movies to decide.
>lol K you idiot the chosen one is a girl
>fuck, what?
>*flashbacks of K seeing two sets of DNA in the records and the memory girl crying appear*
The reveal would be much more powerful if they let it happen naturally in the finale with K bringing Deckard to the memory girl, making the audience piece together the hints just like K had to to learn who she was.

>Teaching someone japanese is better than letting them grow up with japanese
hmmm

They would keep their future sight and gain some magical ability that we take for granted every day.

No, it doesn't that's why this movie is terrible.

>The reveal would be much more powerful if they let it happen naturally in the finale with K bringing Deckard to the memory girl, making the audience piece together the hints just like K had to to learn who she was.

No it would make it less effective. 90% of the audience would be confused as to WTF is going on.

But they knew that there would be no war because to them, time is a flat circle. There is no causality or free will in that universe.

It actually is.
Who the fuck wants to grow up with japanese/around japanese?

if thats true, then they knew they were going to go back in time before they did, it and did it anyways

You dont understand the language only commands
Fucking retard.

There is no time travel in this movie

>>evolution
>humanity evolved from monkeys and from something that dragged its ass out of the sea


Please explain to me what selection pressure would cause humanity to evolve into giant floating radial cephalopods with seven tentacles squirting magic ink.