How in christ's name is learning a language capable of making you see the future? How the fuck...

How in christ's name is learning a language capable of making you see the future? How the fuck? I can't believe the same guy who made Bladerunner 2049 made this complete garbage.

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Yeah you didn't get it

Arrival is part of a recent series of movies I'd describe as Dunning-Kruger Sci-Fi. Along with Interstellar and to a somewhat lesser extent The Martian, they perfectly play to the crowd that fancies themselves as (and, to be fair, may truly be) smarter than average audiences but are not as smart as genuinely "smart people." They are movies designed to make the audience feel smart by introducing complicated and heady concepts, and then holding the viewer's hand the entire way through until there is next to nothing to be left up to interpretation.

If you didn't already know the twist in Arrival by the time she was in the milky section of the ship with the aliens AT LEAST, you perfectly fit the audience I am talking about.

There is no reward for being smart while viewing these movies because everything is eventually spelled out in big fridge magnet letters. Any clever idea is made so transparent that even the most simple in the audience will get it. It also removes any reward for rewatching or trying to figure out what you just saw.

Granted, there is a difference between Arrival and Interstellar. I think where Interstellar was pretending to have a brain it actually didn't have, Arrival has a brain that it is refusing to let the audience use.

Completely disappointing movie.

Also
>so that just happened

It's sci-fi, you should have a little imagination eh?

He directed it, he didn't write it.

Yeah the twist was pretty bloody obvious, I little don't anyone could not see it coming, still well made though.

Ya didnt get ya dink

>Arrival has a brain that it is refusing to let the audience use.

The problem was the premise literally allowed a neuroplastic human being to be able to see the future because she grew to have a rudimentary understanding of a some atemporal language. It doesn't make any sense, and it's not at all what the Sapir Whorf theory is about

straight trash movie, arguably one of the worst of all time in my estimation

It's not fantasy. It's not capeshit. There are African languages which have no concept of past or future, which I assume is where this movie got the inspiration, but it's not like language just creates knowledge.

>Responding to pasta

>he didnt get it

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

It's a fairly simple concept that was just ambiguous in its presentation. It's a very good movie with some plot issues, calm down.

seeUnderstanding a different mode of thought won't let you to see da Fyoocha

Well most people I talk to about the film don't even realize the tralfamadorians were the Chinese the whole time.

Brainlet. Language determines how you think.

Language only makes a person solidify an abstract idea, like the hypothetical past or future. It doesn't have any bearing on actual raw perception.

Definitely the worst Villainoov movie I've seen yet out of Enemy sicario KinoRunner and Arrival

That's an overly simplistic explanation though, and totally ignores the parallels drawn between language and math. Imagine trying to grasp quantam physics without knowing the equations or the language of math. It would be impossible. The implication is that the language the aliens use to communicate is not a language so much as it is a means of comprehending reality differently.

The motivation of the aliens was shit but the central idea isn't refuted by your point because it's largely theoretical and based on mathematical principles - like string theory.

interstellar was incredibly fun and there's dunning-kruger bullshit on both sides. people take the movie too seriously both as 'accurate science' and 'implausible sentimental bullshit'. it was a great adventure, full of tension, beautifully scored and shot and had the humanistic grandiosity of 2001 and contact which were clearly big influences. thinking that a sci fi movie is supposed to 'reward you for being smart' is the whole problem with the annoying portion of its fanbase. and fwiw i think arrival was dumber than interstellar.

>How in christ's name is learning a language capable of making you see the future?

You learn a language and you can create entire worlds.

>it's not like language just creates knowledge.
u r dum

It does make sense when you think about it.
Perhaps it even is possible to become a real life scenario sometime in our future.

Language is a tool.

You can measure a culture's efficiency by the language it uses. Like when they say kids learning a second or third language while growing up are much more successful growing up. Why? Because they're using thought processes from two different culture.

Substitute a highly developed's culture language with that of an undeveloped culture's language and see it fall flat on its face - because they're now using an inadequate tool to handle their environment.

>Pearl
I thoroughly hate that language, but I know how to spell it

>Dunning-Kruger sci-fi

Well put, but why is this a problem? Its still better than 90% of the garbage that gets produced

It's the other way round. She manages to see past, present and future as one and then can speak the language (I guess)

>How in christ's name is learning a language capable of making you see the future? How the fuck?

You know english right? You read a newspaper or a news site that says in a week a new movie is coming out. Congratulations, you now know the future...because you know a language.

I promise you, he gets it
It doesn’t make sense, I’m so, so sry if you let yourself get made a fool of...

If there is something to be interpreted, to be a good work, it should not be the factual outcome of th emovie but the moral concepts that are treated. this is how the greatest books and movies of all time did.
A reward put like an easter egg is only a child game.

>comprehending reality differently
via the language... which can be learned and enable the learner to comprehend reality in the same way in order to see the future..... which makes no fucking sense
(different user fyi)

You don't get it either

The porn parody was better than the actual movie

It makes plenty of sense. Mathematics are a tool that utilises a language, or a formula, or a set of equations. But - unlike human language we verbally use to communicate with - there are universal constants and objective formulae in math. Without understanding mathematic language you can literally not interpret mathematic reality. Literally all Arrival posits is that there are alien languages that reveal reality in ways understanding quantum physics might to an under learned person.

Again, string theory backs up the premise because the entire point is that time is not linear and can be deciphered differently through different linguistic combinations. This is very simple, crystalline shit.

Language is a developed system of communication rooted in culture.
A language will not enable you subvert the fabric of reality and allow an individual to experience past, present and future simultaneously.
Just why the fuck would someone propose such a silly idea based on absolutely zero evidence that a culture's language would allow someone to perceive their entire life all at once?
Whoever created this idea must be trolling or retarded

This

>A language will not enable you to X
>A language will not enable you to fly

>learn math
>learn physics
>adapt knowledge to make an airplane
>fly

Huh. Really makes my bells jingle.

Unironically this. Also, people who absolutely interpret it as literal are . . . well, probably retarded.

>learn chinese
>now I understand all math and am an astrophysicist

>lady in movie learns alien language
>now she can talk to aliens
>also she can see the future

yeah that's the kind of logic at play in this movie

>It doesn't have any bearing on actual raw perception.
That's what you're not getting, there's no perception without language. Concepts are not something we build on top of actual things, concepts are all we know and the only way we can not only communicate but actually be.
It's concepts that make us infer that there are actual things beyond the concept, but that again is just conceptualizing., because we can not experience that actual thing non-conceptually.

Can confirm. Read up on aerodynamics and now I can't get back down send help before I lose signal

Do you have anything to back that up? You know, against all the work done on the subject throughout the decades?

>there's no perception without language
Yes there is

>>learn chinese
>>now I understand

Chinese.
And you can read and listen to knowledge in math and astrophysics ... in Chinese.

Define language in this context

>he took it literally
>he didn't understand the metaphor
>when it was so simple
el em ay oh
em
ay
oh

>ignoring literally every argument in this thread in favour of a weak strawperson argument

Intothetrash.webm

Do you have uncontrollable brief visions of math after learning Chinese?

If you learn Chinese by reading documentation on math, yes.

This movie goes to complete shit after they meet the aliens.

You're right I'm sorry.

Yes.... and that's the entire point of that comparison. This movie is making a leap in logic without ever explaining how someone can go from learning a language to suddenly experiencing reality without the constraints placed on everyone stuck in the present.

The revelation of the main character being able to see the future is unearned. What about the language allows this character to see the future? That's the crux of this lazy piece of shit movie along with other factors like hmmmm the aliens can also see the future... but they're just gonna dick around and not help speed up the process or really explain anything because you know it'll happen eventually anyway I guess.

>A language will not enable you subvert the fabric of reality
Ok, user, but one of the main things about science as it stands today is that there's no fabric of reality, and even if there are certain things a little closer to that kind of stability, time certainly isn't one of them in any way.

The movie spent quite a bit of time explaining its concepts and the fundamentals of what it was doing. You're just being wilfully dishonest now.

Then explain to us how language allows someone to see the future.

A crystallized, relatively stable and broadly articulated set of conceptualizations.

Well, I'm sure your brain must have found some really amazing way of structuring reality, when it's not even able to come up with a fucking argument.

The same guy is remaking dune.

Tell me Sup Forums, is Idris Elda gonna play Leto or will it be good?

>What about the language allows this character to see the future?

Syntax perhaps. Nigga if I knew the language I'd understand that I'm going to waste time arguing with you so I wouldn't.

If a language can allow you to perceive the future then why limit it to that ability? It can allow you to communicate telepathically. It can allow you to manipulate matter. Learning a new language could potentially turn you into god. Nevermind all the steps in between there. Let's just cut that out.

This.

Dude because you can read it left to right and right to left, and that is backwards which makes you travel forward in time!

I bet you don't even subscribe to I fucking love science!

that was my exact reaction.

i saw it exactly one year ago with my gf at the time and it was a waste of money.

>pls explain how a fictional language from a fictional story that works as a futurovision works

No that's a shit definition. Explain it in simpler terms. And crystallized? Language is anything but crystallized.

Shit negro, thanks for that explanation.
Now i can finally see into the future.

>i don't understand physics so I'm gonna pretend that my meaningless blabber has meaning

So you admit that language allowing someone to see into the future is a stupid fucking concept.

Guess you'll have to learn the language on your own to understand the concept; if you care about it enough.

>How in christ's name is learning a language capable of making you see the future? How the fuck?
It's science FICTION

I've labourously explained throughout the thread how grasping mathematic language can help you interpret reality, and pointed out that the film repeatedly, explicitly, draws parallels between math and verbal language as means of interpreting reality. The speculative fiction element is this: there exists a language that bypasses the constraints of the language we use - mathematical and verbal - by combining them in a complicated and nonlinear form. The implication (actually, what is explicitly stated, since you didn't seem to pay attention) is that understanding this complex method of processing reality can allow sentient lifeforms to view things in as nonlinear a way as the language used.

Remember the following: many scientists and mathematicians posit that time is nonlinear, and hypothetically if there were a means of breaking that dimension's lack of linearity into a code, formula, language, et cetera, then you would then be able to process reality in its nonlinear form.

What would be an example of sci-fi that isn't like this?

Arrival is based on Ted Chiang's "Story of Your Life" which was probably not written to wow dumb audiences of the movie. It was a cool exploration into interaction with an alien race and how differently their minds could function compared to humans. It's probably because this movie is doing so well that it draws out all the contrarians on Sup Forums who can't stand it and have to assert their own intelligence to feel superior to the "normies" who enjoyed the movie.

Nowhere in that wall of text of yours did you explain how language can make you see into the future.

Care to try again, or just admit this whole movie was stupid?

lol okay bruv

go fuck yourself

> why limit it to that ability?
The idea they're dealing with, which is scientifically legit although not proved, is that time as we know it is part of our perception of reality, not intrinsic to reality. There's something related to time that happens empirically, but it's not the organization we attribute to time. So other things that had this behaviour, yes could be manipulated by knowledge of language (structural thinking). Things that have a stable nature, independent of relationship wih our perception, no we couldn't change those. Come on it's not that hard.

Concepts start as a flux, when they're stable enough to be used in binary communication, they've been through crystallization.
Sinpler explanation would be that language is series of pre-determined rules that allow mutual compreehension of concepts. Don't think you can go simpler than that

>proving me right

wew lads

A non linear perception doesn't mean you can perceive the future you dingus. That's what these user's are bitching about. It's a poorly implemented concept applied in a way that doesn't make sense within the realms of known science. And if this movie wants to forgo that then it's perfectly fine but I fail to see how "science" is being realistically applied to a fictional story. If anything, Arrival is closer to Star Wars and the ability to use the force. Arrival is fantasy.

>has no argument and never directly addresses anybody's points, insisting that they're wrong for no reason
>"hahaha I'm right u guys SUCK XD fuck the police amirite PICKLE RICK"

See, now that's a post on your level

O yeah, time is a brickwall concept with a very stable behaviour as determined by physics as water turning to fucking ice.

You had no point famalam, you just spouted a bunch of incoherent nonsense.

Because science isn't a religious dogma.
And yes, the film's fiction, just like Star Wars.

You're forgetting though, that Star Wars has The Force, which is essentially a tool with which Jedis manipulate their environment.

Just like the ayylium language in Arrival is a tool with which characters manipulate theirs.

They're fun fiction stories, but the concepts do sound interesting.

>he doesn't know that there are 9 distinct types of ice

Thanks for proving my point.

>Nowhere in that wall of text of yours did you explain how language can make you see into the future.
It most likely cannot. I don't get this criticism though. It would be like being critical of FTL travel or the concept of "subspace" or the concept of traveling back in time. "I don't see how apes could replace humans in society." The whole point is to use these speculative concepts as a fulcrum for the plot. Whether or not it's actually realistic or fully jibes with our current understanding of science is moot.

Arrival is trying to be more realistic and trying to make their whole premise of "seeing into the future through language" seem plausible.

Star Wars doesn't do that.

Who cares.

>Arrival is trying to be more realistic

Realistic?

How the fuck do you know whether learning to see time is plausible or not?

Arrival has entire sections dedicated to scientists and linguistic experts labourously dissecting a language that they are struggling like hell to understand, and shows more than once the mechanics behind how and why the language works the way it does. There's a lot of ambiguity because the entire point is that unless you spend the time they did learning the language you can't interpret it the way the aliens or Amy Adams do.

Comparing it to a totally unscientific film like Star Wars is moronic. It's much closer in concept to something like Primer. They never explain EXACTLY how the time machine works, but there are absolutely mathematical and scientific principles at work.

Also, the point about linearity in language with the film is that the entire language is in itself nonlinear, and reflects nonlinear thinking. It's completely incomporable to any human language in any order. This is another thing they outlined more than once in the film.

Question: how can numbers and symbols allow you to understand string theory? You're kind of ignoring how - in the world of Arrival - the language contains an application of objective reality in the same way math does.

This shit's more about autism than it is about the movie.

If you can't comprehend a hypothetical concept that's on you.

This post succinctly sums up the entire point of science or speculative fiction.

>How the fuck do you know whether learning to see time is plausible or not?

Because for everything there must be a mechanism. That is why magic doesn't work, there is no mechanism. There is not, and cannot be, anything in humans that would be able to sense time travel shit. No sensory input means that something cannot be perceived.

>That is why magic doesn't work

Some would call electricity magic.

I'm comparing it to Star Wars because the concept explored in the movie is about as scientific as the force.
This movie is pretentious because like Interstellar it wants to be taken seriously and treated as an adult sci-fi movie but then this singular concept that the entire movie's plot hinges on is introduced and it's completely laughable. But it's a great fantasy movie.

Some people are retarded yeah

Okay. What are the mechanisms for understanding math and therefore reality as presented in mathematical concepts?

Oh, perception of mathematical language? Which means that if you perceive the language in question you therefore have the mechanism to decose reality? Which is the whole point of Arrival? I didn't see that coming.

You're just being very dishonest now. The Force had one line of explanation in the original film and maybe two in The Empire Strikes Back. Arrival explores its concept far, far more.

The whole "language allows you to see future" aside I don't understand what made anyone like this movie.

Yeah it looks allright, it's by Villeneuve, but the charactets, pacing, plot, score, nothing was the least bit interesting and Jeremy Renner can't act.

Interstellar might be have had plot holes as well, but at least it was interesting and well made as a movie and evoked emotional response. Arrival I had to force myself to sit through, wanted to turn it of multiple times and finished it like a chore I was paid to do (I wish).

You just called almost all of your ancestors retarded.

There is no 'real' hard sci-fi outside of a couple novels.

>your

I forgot i was talking to an alien.

I'll make sure to remind you in the future.

Unironically this.