Why does the animation industry in america lag so hard behind the animation industries in japan, europe, and now brazil?

Why does the animation industry in america lag so hard behind the animation industries in japan, europe, and now brazil?

Why don't americans actually do any in house animation anymore even though a billion Starbucks art students would jump at the possibility of working as inbetweeners?

Why has the animation is for kids thing persisted for so long even though multiple attempts have been made to reach into adult animation?

Not a bait thread, not trying to start shit about anime vs cartoons, I want to talk about the industry itself.

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>Why don't americans actually do any in house animation anymore even though a billion Starbucks art students would jump at the possibility of working as inbetweeners?
That's how capitalism works, user.

>tfw I miss Soviet style Russian animation
>it died with the USSR

japans got a working business model in place for most of their shows from merchandising to cutting cost on specific scenes

meanwhile the west holds cinema animation as its standard for even 10min long serials and union protected animators who need to make a living

in the end moneys the problem

The actual problem is that Western cartoons generally lack quality writing, and the few that are well-written (still generally not up to top-tier anime standards though) aren't promoted much.

>Anime is well written

They have a total of like five rotating premises and plots that they use over and over again.....

The anime industry is oppressive slave-driving that literally ruins people

France and Brazil have literally no presence globally save for the occasional Oscar nomination

Because the minimum wage in north korea is a whole lot less than in the USA

T. Casual who watches shonen and writes off all anime like it's that

You're like the kind of people who call videogames nothing but mindless arcade shooters with needless violence when we've had art house games since the fucking 90s and have enough of an industry that it's actively syphoning the talent away from traditional 3d animated movies.

Or more to the point, you're like someone that complains about cartoons being nothing but toy commercials.

>France and Brazil have literally no presence globally

That sucks. France has had some great looking animation in the past.

>Why has the animation is for kids thing persisted for so long even though multiple attempts have been made to reach into adult animation?
It's not THAT different in Japan though, as far as I'm aware animation is still either for weird nerds or kids. Manga is more mainstream from what I gather because you can read it in the waiting room, on the bus etc... which is admittedly a double-standard in this age of smartphones.

Brazil actually has a booming animation industry due to a relatively recent legislation regarding national broadcasting. It's incredibly lucrative and the International market is irrelevant for it to find success.

Brazil is getting really good, but we still need to get out of the sitcom format. CN should make a english dub of Jorel's Brother already, the first CN cartoon in america latina, but not worthy of getting a worldwide release, while Canada shits out generic sitcoms every month

>past
What do expect? Its the place that animation was forged from its original ore.

>art house games

Not that guy but you're doing a really poor job trying to defend Anime's general imcompetent writing on a Western cartoon board. There's ALOT of shitty written animes if not more than shitty written Western Cartoons like Steven Universe, maybe because due to sheer quantity of generic animes thats pumped out like factor parts.

tfw not sure if srs or making fun of OP

>Why don't americans actually do any in house animation anymore even though a billion Starbucks art students would jump at the possibility of working as inbetweeners?

American animators usually have college debt to pay. Inbetweening is (sadly) a minimum wage job. A budding animator would not accept a minimum wage position, since it is more demanding than a McJob, and a company would rather outsource to Korea, where it's cheaper.

>Why has the animation is for kids thing persisted for so long even though multiple attempts have been made to reach into adult animation?

People don't notice the problem isn't that animation is being perceived as being "for kids", it's that animation is in a comedy ghetto. No one in the west has gotten really used to looking at animation for long, coherent, serious stories. Rick and Morty (or BoJack) is a good example; even though it's reaching into more serious territory, the foil is that both shows are comedy, so the audience can be eased into the serious stuff with humour.

Also, what said is also true. Anime is still niche; people who take it seriously are relatively small compared to the general population. It's just that the industry is much more well established to take advantage of the consumers.

>what is top-tier

>its a "something that required creative effort is not art" argument

It's pretty hard to write a decent story when the budget for a cartoon episode is too low to pay the salary of a U.S. cartoon employee.
Star Wars: The Clone Wars is the best example of a U.S. cartoon getting a good budget. The budget per episode was actually good enough to not only pay the workers, but also good enough for a good episode. If a anime had that kind of budget, it would put everything made within the last fifteen years into shame.

>north korea
>north

>your head
>joke

Screenwriters are actually unionized in the US (and many other countries), so that's no excuse.

>makes stupid mistake in post
>it was just a joke

Try animating said story within the time needed to release a episode within its budget.
Story is gimped to hell because of budget and time constraints.

While we're at it, Japan needs to get out of that moe-blob format as well.

>Why has the animation is for kids thing persisted for so long even though multiple attempts have been made to reach into adult animation?

It's really not much different in Japan. You've got daytime anime/cartoons for kids (Gumball, Teen Titans Go, Pokemon, DragonBall)

Then you've got late-night anime/cartoons for young adults (basically anything that airs on Adult Swim, and anything that gets talked about on Sup Forums)

And then you've got a few family-friendly anime/cartoons that have been running forever and ever and show no signs of stopping (The Simpsons, Detective Conan)

Also, don't act like modern anime is much better in the animation department.

...

I agree with you for the most part but using Dragon Ball Super as an example of QUALITY is just cheating.

>and now brazil
Wait, what?

can we just have an Ed thread?
actually I hear Bebop was meant to be merchandise-driven.. given how fucking little there was and how poor quality it was, I guess it was a failure? I would an Ed revoltech

People always post bad anime animation in these threads as an argument, but nobody ever posts any 2d tv animation that's better.

I mean look I love good cartoons but the fucking crews making shows like kill la kill and space patrol luluco, or one punch man and mob psycho 100 blow our shit out of the water, and even the shitty moe blob shows generally just have a better grasp on camerawork.

I mean, speaking honestly from the heart here, there's barely any modern cartoons that come close to shit that came out decades ago in japan. I love good well animated cartoons. But honestlt, the only shit we have that comes close is samurai jack right now.

Let's just be honest for since, Sup Forums. Anime is beating the shit out of 2d western animation and has been doing so consistently since the 80s.

when the fuck did dragon ball get a kitty man?
I mean, a tall kitty man, n ot the short kind like Puar or the king of earth

Unrelated to the thread but
>mfw marathoned all of cowboy bebop for the first time this weekend

I wouldnt throw 'is' around so hard. I'd emphasize 'decades ago' and 'since the 80s' if I were you. then you'd get me agreeing pretty hard. anime has hit the committee-decided wall pretty hard and there's little chance of artistic freedom coming back. they dont even have nudity anymore, they save it for the DVD. and it's always sexualized as fuck, no more casual nudity. i hear they dont even bathe together anymore. fuckin lost their way, man.

shit, first time?
okay, can I get your real-ass opinion?
... do you think the beginning, middle, and end are a little... dry? Basically everything involving Spike's backstory, Julia, the war, etc? I used to think maybe I was just immature or something but I did a recent marathon and I just ... can't stay awake during the DRAMA

There are more terrible animes than western cartoons because of the amount of anime compared to western cartoons. Does Sup Forums have any of these threads where its reversed with someone asking why anime hasn't reached western standards?

>Shows with no sign of stopping
Sazae-san will never end. 1969 and still going.

It was the least interesting part of the whole show but it was done well enough. I think that if you put yourself in the mindset of "it doesn't even matter what the actual story is, you just go with the emotions of it" it works a lot better. It's just another story you're thrown in the middle of, and in that respect it's no different from all the other sad bad end stories in the show, and I think that's the point.

Still though

>mfw finally seeing what the "bang" scene was

>but nobody ever posts any 2d tv animation that's better.
Gumball and Adventure Time have better animation than a regular Dragon Ball Super episode. Actually, they have better animation than most animes. Zamasu vs Vegeto was great tho

You're gonna carry that weight

This stuff gives me an existential crisis... How can I call myself and animation fan if I don't at least watch one episode of detective conan, doraemon, sazae san, that sort of stuff.. But if I watch one episode, do I have to watch them all? And if I do should I pirate them or work my life to get the money to afford to pay for them? If I pirate them maybe I'm cheating the animators... but if I work my life, I won't have time to watch cartoons...

Samurai Jack is almost entirely known for its quality visuals. The story is seriously lacking.

youtu.be/NLzpXciijjA

Holy shit. It's like they actually had money. This is OPM quality.

>a fucking credits sequence gets more of an emotional reaction from you than any cartoon that tries to be emotional

honestly I think that's a testament to it, that I wasn't invested at all in spike's drama but that ending still fucking did it to me.. so hard.

You can watch about 3 episodes of each of those and get the gist of it.

>But if I watch one episode, do I have to watch them all

I don't think there's a human alive that's seen every episode of Detective Conan.

iunno man this somehow looks western to me. i like the way anime used to do action. whether it be tons of frames or very few, it always felt like a videogame.

best thing is to attach yourself to a knowledgeable friend and let him reccommend the best ones. i have one of those. he's handy. streamed conan vs lupin with me.

I don't think it's even possible to watch every episode of Doraemon any more. I'm pretty sure the only copies of the early episodes were destroyed in a fire.

But every episode of lupin is the best episode.

This so much.

>original doraemon: 26 episodes
>1976 doraemon: 1787 episodes
>2005 doraemon: 789 episodes...and counting.

this is true
but as he has shown me, ANY episode of lupin is the best episode
so you just kind of watch it when you feel like it, never concerned about depleting it or completing it

>lack quality writing
Look at any Dreamworks-Netflix series, it's top-notch. Enough adult jokes to make it genuinely funny at times without boring the kids in the process.

It seems a little unfair to compare AT's animation with Super's considering how simple AT's designs are. They're easier to animate, so it makes sense there wouldn't be much QUALITY

>and now brazil

What? Did people find out about Jorel's Brother?

>Why does the animation industry in america lag so hard behind the animation industries in japan, europe, and now brazil?

What do you mean? America is utterly mopping the floor with them.

Unless you meant in any way other than "How much fucktons of money they can make", then I guess the answer is "Because doing it this way with our current type of animation is utterly fucking over every other country combined in terms of profit made and box office."

For fucks sake, Frozen utterly decimated a Miyazaki film in japan, how is America lagging? Everyone else is trying their very best to come close to the profit of a damn Minions film and failing.

Jorel's Brother is a piece of shit. Pic related is a true show.

Sheer volume of shows certainly helps as there's a higher chance of finding something that fits your tastes
While the majority (like with every medium) is shit, I still often find more stuff worth watching in the average modern anime season as opposed to whatever cartoons are airing. This season you have shit like ACCA, Onihei, Rakugo, Konosuba, and LWA. The only current cartoons I personally enjoy are Clarence and Gumball.

>Why does the animation industry in america lag so hard behind the animation industries in japan, europe, and now brazil?

Three words: Animation Age Ghetto.

but theyre always seen as groundbreakingly well-written. it sure as hell isnt the norm here, it's not expected or considered the least you can do

You got it backwards little monkey

>being this retarded
He is talking about quality. Frozen has shit animation and shitty writing.

That isn't well animated though, they just sped it up so it looks all flashy.

And DBS is stupid as fuck for many other reasons, not just how it looks. If they got a bad guy that can tank god ssj vegitto, then there's absolutely no way Goku & co can win the fight.

>Frozen has shit animation and shitty writing
This

Unionized animation labor is generally more expensive than in Japan, where starting on peanuts is considered on-the-par training on the path of gitting gud.

I can guarantee that one ep of That One Horse Show/Adventure Time/Other mainstream western shit probably has a budget equal to half the budget of an entire 12 ep anime series.

Networks control the budgets of these shows. However, a lot of what animators want to create/animate does not coincide with what a network considers profitable.

Western networks can take unexpected risks, ex Over the Garden Wall, but they are much more likely to invest in things that THEY believe the audience will enjoy.

TLDR; Western animation costs a lot from VAs to animators. The budget needed to create shows is locked behind networks, who are usually unwilling to spend money on things that aren't a guaranteed ticket to more viewers/income.

And Superman has had at least 1 title he appeared in since the 1930s.

I never actually fully understood what the difference is between the second and third generations. If the 1979 adaption ended in 2005, and then the next one immediately started production with basically the same crew, then what exactly changed? Different studio?

The Clone Wars is special because George Lucas eventually funded it with his own private money. We're never gonna get something like that again.

How long will it take for Brazilians to fully animate their women?

I mean at least 1 ongoing minimum, or 1 monthly. But more often than not multiple ones.

>Unionized animation labor is generally more expensive than in Japan, where starting on peanuts is considered on-the-par training on the path of gitting gud.
Isn't almost everything to do with the animation is outsorce to worst korea these days, with the exception of storyboards?

Outside of blockbuster movies, Japan owns the "animation for adults" market. Everybody in Hollywood and Burbank knows this. And so they butter their bread elsewhere.

>there's absolutely no way Goku & co can win the fight.
They lost the fight

Westerners (correctly) see cartoons as a medium for children, and don't waste money on something that doesn't need much to hold a kid's attention. Western cartoons aimed exclusively at older audiences are a niche genre with such a small audience that an adequate budget is out of the question.

>He is talking about quality.

Oh well gee, it's almost like

>Unless you meant in any way other than "How much fucktons of money they can make", then I guess the answer is "Because doing it this way with our current type of animation is utterly fucking over every other country combined in terms of profit made and box office."

Answers that just fine then. Should have wrote that, my bad.

The reason 'quality' is lagging is that you're looking at it from a different standard of quality. You're not looking at it in terms of how impressive the appeal is, you're not looking at it in terms of 'how much marketability and lack of dissenting controversy can we get out of this product?' Your idea of quality is completely at odds with the ideas of even the bigger names like Pixar, who want to tell solid stories that still have mass appeal but also a universal message that makes them an appealing brand.

There's no lack of talent, there's no shortage of writers who could do every bit as good if not better than the best Anime has to offer, but there's a far bigger and far more lucrative market that flourishes better by eschewing more direct mature themes in favor or more subtle ones. The reason the USA is 'lagging behind' is that in the business venture of tens of millions of dollars, they choose to take a more safe bet that doesn't push as many boundaries, and likely is only as successful as it is because it doesn't push boundaries. I mean, look at Sausage Party, that was successful, right? But compare it to literally any other 'success' from disney and it's an utter flop.

The market for mature audiences and mature animation exists, but it's a teeny tiny fraction of the audience for a much lighter fair, and that's reflected in the sales and successes of the past decades. The reasons we're 'lagging behind' is few artists get the capital and investment to get their movies produced and few venues to get them premiered and marketed, simple as that.

youtube.com/watch?v=NnJbtbh4tDE

Imagine how long this took to animate, frame by frame.

>Westerners (correctly) see cartoons as a medium for children
Why do you think it's correct?

I watched the Cowboy Bebop Movie for the first time a couple of weeks ago and...it's the mood (and worldbuilding) of the show that does it. The show is at its best when there's a melancholy edge to everything. Cowboy Bebop's about people being trapped in their past and ultimately Faye and Jet are the only characters that can transcend their pasts.

What I wish is that we actually learned WHAT exactly Spike's deal was. I mean, I can guess and I'm typically a fan of letting some things remain mysterious, but in the same way that we got a nice flashback of Jet's time on Ganymede, and all it did was deepen Jet's character, I think a nice Spike-centered flashback would've done the same.

Also, is it just me or was the two-parter on Callisto when the series was at its peak?

Very few screenwriters are involved in animation. Most writers are animators, creative directors, boarders, etc.

>there's barely any modern cartoons that come close to shit that came out decades ago in japan.

Take off those rose-colored goggles. 90's anime was roughly ~90% recycled frames/holds. I was watching Kare Kano the other day and they straight-up ran out of budget for an episode and filmed paper cutouts on Popsicle sticks.

>there are 7332 episodes
>each are 30 minutes minimum, there are longer vignettes and specials, but lets use that 30 minutes as a rough estimate
>that means theres 219,960 minutes of animation
>that means theres 3666 hours of animation
>that means theres 153 days of animation
>that means theres FIVE MONTHS WORTH OF ANIMATION

>Why don't americans actually do any in house animation anymore even though a billion Starbucks art students would jump at the possibility of working as inbetweeners?

Because in America, you have to pay someone WELL to do something specialized like animation.

In Japan, you can make more money working at Jack in the Box than being an animator.

>if you watched this show every day, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it would take you five whole fucking months to start and finish it, with no breaks inbetween

This is like some Truman Show level time abyss nightmare.

I wouldn't call anime "well animated". I mean it can be, but most studios milk it for what they can.

But screenwriters are primarily responsible for writing quality. You're very unlikely to see a storyboarded series with good writing.

>if you watched one episode a day it would take you 20 years to finish it

Yes, but even then storyboarders, writers, VAs, voice directors, sound design, musicians etc. They eat up a show's budget like crazy.

They probably wouldn't. Pay them what you pay Koreans and my guess is almost all would quit.

...Just like in Japan

idk user I think Spike's past is supposed to be a typical sentimental gangster action/drama like were popular in 1990's Hong Kong film scene. It's a homage. Those in the know can easily key into the *kind* of story it's referring to, and that's all you need. Two gangster friends/brothers in arms, a love triangle, a betrayal, and a fall out with everyone being destroyed. Pretty typical stuff.

Seiyuu are paid chump change compared to western VA stars. Only the legendary top seiyuu's can decide what they earn.

That's only because the author got pissy and killed the production and the director quit. It was supposed to go longer than 26 episodes but there was no point putting any money into it after the project fell apart, hence the most bullshit last episode of any series ever.

Heh, you also just described the most likely reason why Overwatch destroyed itself.

Are there cultural differences in story structure between Europe / South America / Asia / North America?

I'm not talking about themes or tone or style. I'm talking about Hero's Journey or Three-Act Structure?

Koreans are cheaper. This is why we need national socialism in America, to protect our creative industries.