Who is more irredeemable?

Who is the bigger piece of shit?

Well, Bojack does seem to be more aware of himself being a piece of shit.

Both of them are fully aware of their shortcomings but the difference is Bojack atleast tried to change .
puppington is as irredeemable as they get .

Clay and it's not even close.

Bojack's actually kinda good when he's out of his toxic system.

It will depend on how Bojack treats his daughter next season.

90216554
good point

Bloberta

clay has more reason to be a piece of shit though

Bloberta is pretty horid, but still nowhere near Clay.
I think it's highlighted in the show, their problem is mostly alcohol.
While Blobertas alcohol crutch is for her a tool to aid her confidence, Clay's is a tool to act how he wouldn't normally without thinking.

Definitely Clay but he has a better excuse for being an ass. Bojack could surpass him depending on how the show ends, though.

The only way I can imagine him topping Clay shooting his kid and getting drunk and crying about how life sucks instead of taking his son to the hospital would be if Bojack knocks up his daughter.

Bojack never shot anyone

>Bojack knocks up his daughter
At that point we'd get even more demented BoJack Horseman porn.

>ruined Todd's rock opera
>stabbed Herb in the back
>tried sleeping with Charlotte's daughter
>indirectly caused Sarah Lynn's death

It's nowhere near as bad as shooting your own kid and then bitching how your life is suffering, but it's still up there because BoJack knows he's a bad person, feels guilt for being a bad person, but never stops doing bad things.

BoJack

Bojack by a small margin.

You could argue Bloberta is the reason behind Clay's horrible behavior. She triggered his drinking problem, she probably pushed his career as mayor and she got pregnant with someone else and fooled him into thinking that blonde fuck was his son

Bojack largely has himself to blame. His parents can't be the only excuse

He did almost fuck a child while out of his toxic system.

Oh wait shit, Clay's still a fundamentalist Christian. I take it back

Bojack is absolutely redeemable. He accepts that he's a dickwad and shows signs of trying to improve himself.

She was legal, wasn't she?

>You could argue Bloberta is the reason behind Clay's horrible behavior.

Yeah, but wasn't the whole point of Beforal Orel that Clay allowed his circumstances to warp him and make him as awful as everyone around him? And the reason Orel ends up fine in the end is that he doesn't let himself be corrupted?

Seems like you can make same the statement about Clay. After a certain point, it's just you.

>Before Orel

Haven't seen that, and since he's still a fundamentalist, I'll concede anyway

Clay fucking shot his own son, lied about it, then told him he wasn't sorry for doing it.

Bojack has at least been shown to be decent with kids (seahorse kid). Penny doesn't count. As she pointed out, she was of consenting age for Arizona, sober, and made advances multiple times on Bojack.

Bojack tries. Yeah sometimes he doesn't try enough or outright fail, but he tries. Clay, has chosen to wallow in the filth of his life.

The problem here is he in a company of people that kind of prevent him from doing that. Princess pretty much use him as her emotional dump and cost him his second chance of saying sorry to another Screenwriter that he manage to get fired. Diane is a walking cancer and her presents fuck up his chance of love with best owl girl. Todd is an ungrateful dumb fuck that take advantage of Bojack's self loathing and use him to do thing he would otherwise never do without him. Fuck, he would be dead without using Bojack's house as a part for the mexican gang's party.

>BUT MUH ROCK OPERA
Wow, like that matter much in a long run. That fucker manage to get an amusement park, got a job with PB which he promptly bankrupt him, and form a Hooker on Wheel company.

At least all three are out of Bojack's life and I hope Hitler and his show might fix him up good

Plus, his whole relationship with Todd (the Rock Opera and his "girlfriend" notwithstanding). It's outright stated in the first episode Bojack took him in cause he thought he was some gay teenage runaway.

Nope.

>making excuses for statutory rape
lawprotip: age gap also factors in.

>Clay allowed his circumstances to warp him and make him as awful as everyone around him? And the reason Orel ends up fine in the end is that he doesn't let himself be corrupted?
This. You can't defend Clay (or BoJack for that matter) on the basis their behaviour was someone else's fault. No it fucking isn't. Everyone has free will and for that reason I think Clay is a much bigger piece of shit than BoJack. BoJack at least has moments of realization that his behaviour is wrong, and is sometimes even capable of being half-decent.

No one's saying their behavior is entirely someone else's fault. That said, one's behavior is shaped on their surroundings. That's why every time Bojack tries to get better, his environment resets his behavior, because it's easier for him

They were in New Mexico, where the age of consent is 17, without any close in age stipulation.

Fair point, and honestly, it's probably not a good idea to get statutory rape advice from someone under 18 who's never had sex.

Bloberta also give a shit about her kids over actively resenting them for existing

Clay because at least Bojack never reproduced. Oh, wait. I mean at least Bojack was never involved with the raising of any children. Yet.

i think the core difference is is that while they're both bad Bojack keeps trying to change for the better, yes there's a lot of self sabotage and bad decisions made but he realizes it and is trying. he also really cares about his friends and the people around him, even if its not always evident. he also knows that despite the circumstances his lot is mostly his fault.
Clay doesn't. for Clay its everyone else fault. He actively resents the people around him for daring to try and be happy when he isn't. Clay also doesn't try to change cause he feel like she shouldn't have to.
Bojack has empathy
Clay doesn't

To be fair, the people surrounding Bojack isn't making him better, either. The biggest example is when Diane decided to hide out at Bojack when she chicken out in that 3rd world country charity scam and influence Bojack to be a shitbag while he was stressing out on his movie job. This cause the break up of Bojack and Wanda and she didn't get flank for that.

Sour grapes the post.

Yes she was and she was fully aware and wanted it. The episode was meticulous in explaining this.

Clay by a fucking mile.

Clay might be the biggest piece of shit in animation.

Naaaaaaaaaah.

To be fair, context is important.
Peter is a cartoonish piece of shit because that's the joke.
Clay and Bojack's shitness is central to the plot.

>but he has a better excuse for being an ass.
I don't know about that. Clay's problem is that his mommy wouldn't stop coddling him while Bojack's problem is that his parents were psychopaths that constantly mistreated him. I know that both can fuck someone up but I have more sympathy for the latter.

Clay is stays in a loveless marriage for political convenience and uses Christianity to justify him being terrible. Bojack at least tries to be better

Will Bojack get his happy ending in S4?

ha hell no

clay also had a father that hated him and a wife that manipulated him into every bad decision that made him hate his life in the first place.

>clay
>in need of redemption
He did everything right and is a victim of circumstance. Fuck Bojack

>implying that's true

>not worse than Clay
Yes she is. She was the active participant to Clay's passive participation. She was the catalyst.

>wasn't the point of before Orel
But the entire point of the series is that Orel is the only one who makes it out of that town unscathed. There are like two other characters that aren't completely broken. Orel is exceptional.

Prior to meeting Bloberta Clat seemed like a wholesome young man. He loved the bible but we wouldn't even drink Bloberta was able to trap him and is the source of all his pain.

He should own up to his decisions but essentially since the moment he met her she controlled where his life went by manipulation.

Bojack has a lot more room to change though. He has all the money and freedom in the world. He can travel. He can open businesses. The whole point of Clay is becoming trapped, whether in a "stupid dead end job", into a family or in a town.
Clay has been molded by his choices but so too have his choices been narrowed time and time again. The only thing stopping Bojack is Bojack, he has no responsibility to anyone or anything. Clay is all but locked in by his values and circumstances.

This. Whether it was his mother, father or Bloberta, Clay's greatest weakness was being unable to resist undue influence. He was fucked readily and consistently from cradle to grave and worse still blamed for it by the people who pushed those situations upon him.

Clay knows very well that Shapey isn't his son. But in a fundamentalist Christian town, what would happen to his status if he made it known that his wife cheated on him? He'd have to either forgive her or end up a single father, and neither of those options would make him look good. So like every other problem, they ignore it.

Clay by a wide margin. Bojack at least attempts to be a better person and is aware of just how much of an asshole he is to the people in his life but is too self-destructive and fearful to make any long lasting changes to his personality. Clay is absorbed in the concept of his own self-righteousness, using the excuses of religion and an imperfect childhood to justify being a selfish, cynical and downright deplorable guy. Unlike Bojack, he isn't so much concerned with keeping people in his life at any cost because he's desperately afraid of being alone, he does it because if he's going down he's going to make sure everyone else goes down with him.

Rick vs Bojack would make a fair comparision

The answer is Clay. However, it's also important to note that Clay is a well-written character with one of the best voice-over performances ever given. We can argue all day over whether Bojack is well-written, but we know that Will Arnett is half-assing it.

I have to disagree with you about Clay. He does not use the excuse of religion and his childhood to justify being selfish. When he was a young adult he was a devoted christian. It was not until Bloberta that his life started to go downhill. He had a rough childhood but he was fine when he got older.

Clay ends up being such an asshole later in his life because he slowly realize how much he was manipulated and was raising someone else's son.

being aware you're a piece of shit doesn't make you less of a piece of shit

in fact I think it might make you a bigger one cause then you go "ah fuck it, I'm horrible why bother trying to be better to people at this point" or if makes you go "well at least I'm aware and since knowing is half the battle I'll just pat myself on the back for being so self aware and not bother to be better"

either way, fuck off you piece of shit cause you still treating people like shit so no one gives a fuck about how introspective you really are if the results ain't there

>even more
Are you telling me that there's already bojack porn that is qualified as demented?

Sounds like you're a Clay, user.

t. clay

No but I literally just watched Help, the episode that shows how they got married. Clay would most likely live a happy life if he never ran into Bloberta.

No, he wouldn't have. The point of the episode about Clay's childhood is that he was always a broken and selfish person and that he merely retreated into religion and the ideal of the All-American male because he thought that's what it meant to be a good person. Anything god about Clay before he met Bloberta was a facade: he was never a "good" person. Regardless of what happened in his life, he was destined to be an asshole.

>all these fucking clay apologists
HE
SHOT
HIS
OWN
SON

He literally met Bloberta at her friend's wedding. The only reason he was at the church was because he thought it was a normal service. She convinced him to go to the reception and that fueled his alcoholism. Then tricked him into marriage.

Even though we just see a small slice of Clay's life between his childhood and adulthood, he seemed to have turned out okay until he met Bloberta.

You completely missed the point of Clay's character and instead went for the low-hanging fruit of "E-E-EVIL WOMAN DO DO DO DO DO DO DO"

So you're saying he's an asshole already

But then she made him being an asshole even worse

You are very passionate about these cartoon characters

Then give me some proof that no matter what Clay would become an asshole.

Bloberta's problems stem from circumstance as well. It is not that she is evil it is that she was disconnected from her family and all her friends were getting married. He was desperate and saw the first opportunity should could to get out of that life.

It's okay because Shapey's dad is Clay's best friend/homoerotic love interest

>17
>child
>17
>child
>17
>child

America is a shit country full of morons

>Then give me some proof that no matter what Clay would become an asshole.
Faking his death, freaked out his mom as pregnant before, getting his father mad so he can hit clay.

That's literally everyone in the show sans Mr. Peanut Butter though.

>would become an asshole

He killed his mom at 12. When he got married he was in his mid twenties. Between that time he become a well adjusted person.

Did you totally miss the part where he would intentionally piss off his dad so he can be hit? because that screams well adjusted.

Anything under 18 is considered a minor, and most people consider minors to be the same as children.

Note this only really applies to sex related things. They are fine with locking up 12 year olds as adults for violent crimes.

That was when he was 12. I am talking about when he was in his mid 20s. Going to church routinely, actually believing the bible stuff, and not drinking seems to be well adjusted.

If you think killing you're mother and being emotionally abandoned and hated by your father will leave you a mentally stable person. Then i got bad news for you buddy if he was mentally stable he would have know it wasn't an actual church service, he wouldn't have fallen to alcohol so easily, and he wouldn't have looked to bloberta as a surrogate mother.

Clay easily
he practically embraces his assholishness and is also self righteous about it

Bojack is more of a compulsive asshole
he tries but he just can't control it

>rock opera
Shut up Todd. No one cares.

Yeah he has baggage from his childhood but if it was not for Bloberta being the catalyst of his alcoholism. He might not of been the most mentally stable but he was not down the path of shooting his son in the woods and not getting help.

Please don't start another debate over Penny.

If it wasn't her then it would have been something else or he would have gone off the deep end himself and wind up a serial killer. What he really needed was to take responsibility and see a therapist or his own life or become a priest and live in a convent.

clay is sympathetic in why he's a bad person, but lets be real here, clay is a complete fucking monster

Moral Orel is the better show imo

It's legal in any state that isn't California

Better question, what's the better show?

Moral Orel.

Starts out as a simple parody of bible thumpers, turns into this dark show with a little bit of comedy. Has realistic characters with scenarios that can hit close to home.

Bojack has more self awareness and Clay is pretty unrepentant. That said, Bojack has done too much ridiculously awful shit. In one episode he's responsible for three 17 year old kids and ends up getting one so drunk she needs to get her stomach pumped, foists responsibility for taking her to the hospital onto the boy and then tries to fuck the remaining girl when the mother turns him down. That's ONE episode. He's ruins far more lives than Clay ever did.

I feel that was the point Bojack went from cartoonish asshole to just dark and irredeemable. That episode was uncomfortable as fuck.

I don't know, I think that's a lot worse and it's not even half of what he did. Literally every person that gets any kind of proximity to Bojack has their lives ruined by him at one point. The fact he knows what he does is awful, but lacks the sincerity to do anything about it actually makes him worse as his self pity just creates a vicious cycle.

>people have one shitty drunken night out where they do things they regret
>their lives are ruined
I'm glad that's not actually the case or I think my life would have been ruined a dozen times over. Most people have the ability to get over one-time bad experiences and put them behind them. It's a Hell of a lot harder to do the same if you're trapped in a home with your drunken abusive father.

your question is shit because there's only one right answer and that's moral orel________

As much as I love Bojack, I think Moral Orel is better.

clay shot his son
and was proud of it

Moral orel is a better show, that episode with the townies that paralleled oral getting shot is one of the strongest episodes a show has ever produced.

In terms of actual damage, Clay did the least. He's an unrepentant monster and likely one step from being a complete murderer but despite that his son managed to avoid the sin of the father thing.

Bojack is trying to change but he can't, either because he's so broken that he can never be put somewhat together or because it's his excuse to self-justify his actions. He's ruined the lives of many people. Even though he does show that on a deeper level he does care for the people around him, everything he touches he ends up fucking up.

Bojack fucks his pseudo-children, abandons them, and one of those children died in his arms as a result of Bojack's decisions.

Clay did not fuck his children, stuck around to raise them, and even produced an amazing human being.

Results don't lie.
Bojack is a better person, but Clay is a better father.

>raise
Clay didn't do jack shit but avoid his son and not realize his other child had been replaced after the hunting trip fiasco then professed his love for his sons coach in front of the whole family on Christmas. que the montage of Orel being miserable until he and his brothers escaped that toxic household. Orel did something Clay couldn't be a better person despite the influences aloud him

>He's ruined the lives of many people.
Not really. If we're being sensible about this and believing all people have free will, including Clay and Bojack, then those people allowed their lives to be ruined. They could have just moved on.