Spike is the best character in both series. Prove me wrong

Spike is the best character in both series. Prove me wrong

Protip: you can't

OP your mistake was making your bait post something so indisputably true that no one can even reply to you.

>implying Buffy shouldn't have ended at Season 3 with Buffy and Faith getting together

Impossible, Faith is a nympho and Buffy was pure until Spike fucked her upstairs at the Bronze.

>Faith is a nympho and Buffy was pure until Spike fucked her upstairs at the Bronze
Hot but what about Faith-in-Buffy's-body getting laid with Spike?

you got taste user

this was literally the hottest scene in the entire show

Reminder that Spike spends his entire life/undeath being cucked by Angel.

Not even close. Off the top of my head there's Wesley. Spike's a cool cat in the end, tho.

This is now a R I P P E R thread

Wesley has God-tier character arc, one that rivals or surpasses that of Spike, but Spike is all around a more enjoyable character and gets to shine on both shows. Wesley's development is 90% on Angel.

Are there any other characters from another show that is as based as Spike?

Why did we never get a girl as perfect as FaithBuffy?

>that evil smirk at the end of that masterful delivery
HNNNGH

What season and episode was this from?

Dean Winchester

bonus points
>just as snarky
>wears a leather jacket
>loves to drink
>loves to fuck
>loves a good beatdown
>also in a show about vampires and demons

GOAT characters

4.16 Who Are You

earning your soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being "cursed" with a soul

>that God awful fake bong accent
dropped

What the hell is this heresy OP?
Reminder that best boy coming through
Spike is a good second though

see

>becomes a central character
>both shows get cancelled

Really makes you think.

Spike has been central since Buffy 4-5, it actually extended the show and Buffy wasn't canceled at 7, it was supposed to end at 7

Angel 5 holds, I'll give you that

god she was so hot, aging is so scary

Same could be said for Spike, since he has 0 development in Angel
He arrives already an ensouled snarky champion which he became in Buffy.

>He arrives already an ensouled snarky champion which he became in Buffy
WRONG

Uhmm... user, are you OK?

Fred was best.

>it was supposed to end at 7

It was supposed to end at 5 then UPN bought it. But the nihilism of the All Spike years only made it last two more as it alienated general audiences, not to mention Sarah Michelle Gellar who only came back (her contract was up, she didn't have to) because Joss had promised her that Buffy and Xander would end up together. Instead she got the proto-Tumblr fanfic that was Spuffy and she still hates Whedon for it. She was foolish enough to think Whedon still gave a shit about the original characters.

I don't fault Spike for it. When he was used right - morally ambiguous asshole cracking jokes in the background - he's fun as hell. But turning him into Angel 2.0 was a disservice to everyone involved.

why

Of course Illyria is the indisputable best character in the Buffyverse, user. tfw it's too late for me to start Amyposting now
But I figured the thread was about best boy.
Besides since sadly, there is no Fred nor Illyria in the Buffy side of things (unless you count the comics)

Because Angsty Spike sucks. That's Angel's thing. Wisecracking Spike is so much better.

They have banter but in Angel 5 it's more friendly banter whereas in Angel 1 it's straight up hate

Spike may have been ensouled and already reformed when he returned to Angel 5 but he still had backstory and an arc to finish with his grandsire and in the end, he set it aside to be a champion regardless.

Wes by comparison, despite his amazing development in Angel, was relatively flat in Buffy 3.

So because we are talking about the best character in BOTH shows, Spike edges out

but thats not a picture of fred

Agreed but Fred/Illyria cant compete when we're talking both shows only because she doesn't qualify, not because the thread is about boys. It just so happened Wes and Spike have the best arcs among this universe's characters who also happened to be on both shows

user, I literally implied Buffy was supposed to end in 5 but got extended. Maybe not because of Spike, but the argument that Spike caused the cancellation of Buffy is clearly false.

>turning him into Angel 2.0 was a disservice
Fair point. But don't forget the important difference: Spike EARNED his soul. He actually sought to have one. That's what makes him better than Angel in my books

Wesley was the best character in Angel

Got you senpai
That's what I said. Illyria was only in Angel's final episodes and not Buffy. There is a comic arc where she meets Buffy though.
>when only a few episodes are enough to deem her best grill anyway
If shows are the the matter of the debate, the only real question is "Wesley or Spike?"

He's a good voice actor for Dresden Files too. Right in his wheel house.

yes but not even top 10 in Buffy, so that's his weak spot

god i had the biggest crush on her back in the day, she was so cute

Spike knocking down Sunnydale signs during his first appearance and in the finale of Buffy were kino

But in that view, we will never settle this debate since it depends on concepts of evaluation in a situations where these vary between anons.
If you say "both shows" I might consider "a character that was an active part of both shows"
Where you claim to consider "a character's summation of development/participation between both shows" As a whole, Wesley is undeniable best character. If you divide the percentage of goodness between shows, it's Spike

Still is, user.
40 years old and still the cutest human being to ever exist

Spoken and argued like a true blue sheltered watcher

They only had one chance to do Xander/Buffy, and that was after season two.

Besides, post-season three Xander was a worthless piece of shit and quite frankly, Anya deserved far better than him.

Can't argue with facts bro.

Fred.

>Fred.

Seeing her burn the goal was the saddest I've ever been watching a TV show. Poor Wesley.

I prefer Spike overall, but Wesley is a close second, and would have been first if they hadn't shit the bed with his character arc at several points. And killing him off and leaving him trapped as a thrall of Wolf Ram and Heart in Season 8 was my first warning that the comics were shit and not to be considered canon.

well damn, is that a recent pic? if so she still looks amazing. after seeing what became of buffy and willow i just assumed fred aged like crap too, just like all the other jewesses on buffy and angel, and never bothered to look in on it. i was so wrong

yes, Don Stark from Supernatural

They really should have made Xander gay and stuck Willow with Reilly in season four. Maybe make Tara Gile's lesbian protege he gets stuck with as part of a deal with the Watchers to get back in after he told them to fuck off.

Reilly was an interesting idea in theory but sticking him into the show as Buffy's love interest doomed him. Should have just kept Buffy single or have Buffy date multiple partners and slow build up Spike as her new love interest.

Similarly, they should just gone full Reenie/Chibi-Usa on Dawn and made her a cousin not Buffy's sister. That way the retcon shit would have not raped the franchise and would have been easier to swallow.

My faggot friend Anthony says hes the stunt double for spike, tries impressing homely goth chicks with it.

No presence in Buffy. Next!

So they never freed Wesley? Even though the comics made a huge fucking stink about wholesale reversing Fred's death?

>Trying to fight amyposters

user, don't do it

Nigga, doesn't matter. And if you want someone that goes across both, then fucking Willow.

>the argument that Spike caused the cancellation of Buffy is clearly false

Fair enough. I remember all the discussions on boards about Seasons 6 and 7. If anything, it was the Xander/Anya breakup that made people stop watching the show, as I recall.

>That's what makes him better than Angel in my books

I would agree with you, but I had some problems with it. He didn't really change all that much and showed almost no contrition, from what I remember. I didn't need to see him being a little emo bitch about it like Angel. But at least recognizing what he did was wrong would have been nice. Just one line really. The scene with Principal Wood still leaves me a little cold.

Again, I don't blame Spike for that. I blame that on Whedon trying to be an Edgelord. I feel a more competent writer, who still cared about his characters, would handled that much better.

No clue. I stopped reading the comics after Twilight turned out to be Angel (a nonsensical plot twist that came about simply because the convoluted rights issues involve Angel's TV show got resolved so that they could finally have Angel show up in the Buffy comic)

There is at least one amyposter who is logical and refrained. I can see the attempts not to flood the thread. The others need to learn from that guy.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like Fred/Illyria a lot. Fred a qt and Illyria is very interesting as a character but this thread is asking which character from both shows is the best. So it's really not on topic to spampost Fred/Illyria. Any other Angel/Buffyverse thread and I'm okay with it

Willow guest starred in like one episode. Faith has more presence when taking both shows into account

Sounds like you have been missing on a lot then
I bet you haven't watched Person of Interest either have you?

Not a clue, I dropped the comics (despite arguably being more a Sup Forums fan than Sup Forums) after it became clear it was all shark jumping and shit they would never have gotten away with on tv.

I followed Angel until LA was no longer trapped in a hell dimension and I just couldn't even get more than a couple of issues into Buffy.

If someone knows if they ever freed Wesley, it would be nice to know.

oh god please not with this POI again, I've seen a number of Buffy threads not only get swallowed by amyposting BUT ALSO ending up derailed by POI posts. jfc at least stick to fred/illyria photos

Willow touches nothing from Wesley's nor Spike's arcs and presence on both shows

Still trying to heal that divide eh user?

Relax, dude. The other user asked and I replied because it sounds like someone who might need the info. That's not my only post, you know. I have been talking about the thread's subject too.

>They really should have made Xander gay

Either that or give the Wesley treatment.

They only turned Willow gay because Whedon demanded there be a gay character, character continuity be damned. It's one of the reasons I can't enjoy the show on rewatch. I know this where the SJWing of nerd culture got its start.

>Reilly was an interesting idea in theory but sticking him into the show as Buffy's love interest doomed him.

I agree. However, Reilly was not well liked by the fanbase at the time. They were still all assmad about Angel leaving and took it out on him. I suspect why they went with Spike as a love interest was because Angel/Buffy was such a huge hit, they decided to repeat it.

I'm an Amyposter too, and I've been in this thread for some time and nobody ever knew.
But I'm not doing it to be nice, I just drowned myself in booze while watching Amykino last night and feel too shitty to Amypost.

Also to be perfectly honest I only really spam Amys when the discussion is focused only on Buffy, because I don't like Buffy that much, definitely not as much as Angel, so I get bored.

Here's an Amy to prove it.

I've been thinking about watching Buffy. I understand that Angel takes place in the same universe, but I don't know how to watch them. Do I watch Buffy then Angel? Or do I need to watch them simultaneously? Was Angel still running after Buffy ended?

I was a clueless kid when buffy/angel started happening, and only watched this show in my early 20s, I don't really know what happened between Buffy fans and Angel fans nor what caused the divide--they're two sides of the same coin. I can't grasp the idea that people from either side would hate on the other, when both canons exist in one universe.

I can understand liking one over the other (just like some prefer Buffy over Faith, Spike over Angel or vice versa) but to actively hate and call the other trash when so many of the characters are central to BOTH shows just escapes my understanding

The first 3 seasons of Buffy set up Angel. Its not imperative, but it really helps. There is some crossover after that, but its mostly just cameos. I don't really think you need to watch them at the same time.

Buffy 1-3
Buffy 4 = Angel 1
Buffy 5 = Angel 2
Buffy 6 = Angel 3
Buffy 7 = Angel 4
Angel 5

I watched Buffy first then Angel after. It shouldn't be hard to follow if you have good memory of what happened in general every season. But you can watch it in combined chronological order, I think the wiki has a list of crossover episodes and which comes after which

Watch Buffy until like season 3, when Angel leaves, then drop it and watch Angel instead. It's better.

I don't think people hate fans from one show or another here, we just hate that one autistic buffyfaggot who takes it upon himself to shit up every thread by starting shit with amyposters, thus derailing the thread into nothing but shit talking.

Actually the big thing about season six in terms of people hating it, was three-fold:

1. The Magic=Drug shit
2. The Spike/Buffy attempted rape, which was done because one of the writers HATED the pairing and snuck it into an episode while Joss was busy on other projects and was already filmed by the time Joss was made aware of the scene

3. Tara being fridged.

The magic=crack shit was looked down on as lazy writing to facilitate Willow FINALLY going evil, while the rape attempt was seen as problematic in every way possible (most notably, the fact that Spike crossed the line to the point that it made ZERO sense for Buffy to not kill him as soon as he tried to rape her), and the SJW brigade were pissed the fuck off that their lesbian waifu was dead, given how this was back when lesbian waifus were hard to come by.

Season seven actually was well received in the beginning, as Whedon did a GREAT job setting up a build-up for something HUGE. But post-"Conversations With Dead People", everything came to a screeching halt.

The bad guy turned out to be the lame ass First Evil, who's grand scheme was to summon an army of uber-vamps to take over the world

Spike's entire plotline with him getting his soul back being part of a larger evil scheme, turning out to be a feint for him being brainwashed via a song the First Evil sang to him (oh and he turned his mom into a vampire and she tried to rape him)


Willow got a shitty new GF

The return of the various past Big Bads amounted to nothing

Angel's storyline barely connected with Buffy's

And they had to hire Nathan Fillon to have someone for Buffy to fight in the last two episodes.

Which is a huge shame, as the first 8-9 episodes of Season Seven have some great build-up in terms of making it look like some serious apocalyptic shit was going down.

Like so many things it started in the past when whedon was untouchable.

whedon's downfall destroyed buffy fanbase on here. They were hundreds strong at one point, even getting a huge chunk of early 2010/2011 Sup Forums 'year map'

>implying i actually watch tv anymore
im just here for the memes. and as far as i knew fred just dropped off the side of the earth after dollhouse

Funny how that didn't really seem to affect the Angel fanbase. Whether he was really involved in the day to day on Angel or not, it was still his show, just like Buffy was.
Might be because Buffy had more feminist overtones, so that's why so many people dropped it like a hot potato after Whedon turned into a turbofaggot.

Isn't she in that new X-Men show now or something?

This... so called "divide" strikes me as something that can only be the product of one thing: autism
I said it before and I say it now.
There would be no Angel without Buffy
There is no adulthood without adolescence, and both shows perfectly reflect these stages. I don't see them as different, but as part of the same thing. I might like Angel more for a number of reasons, but that's like saying you like an episode over another. Shit is connected and I can't conceive attempting to understand Angel if you haven't watched Buffy

Man, now I remember all that stuff. I had blocked it out of my head. It was all just such a fucking trainwreck. It made me miss the Scoobies just being friends, cracking jokes, and killing monsters.

>The Spike/Buffy attempted rape, which was done because one of the writers HATED the pairing and snuck it into an episode

I didn't know that. That is so fucked up and hilarious.

She is, and I'm sure as soon as that ends she'll immediately end up on another show. She's been working almost as hard as David Boreanaz has ever since Angel ended.

I can understand your three-fold reasoning but when you delved into details I got lost. Especially in things like

>The bad guy turned out to be the lame ass First Evil
bringing back an old villain was pretty cool in my book. it strengthens the continuity. plus this entity was older than Old Ones. Considering the previous Big Bads, it made sense for the finale to have quite possibly the Biggest Bad yet

>Spike's entire plotline with him getting his soul back being part of a larger evil scheme
was it? I mean yes, Spike getting a soul was woven with the mytharc but Spike getting his soul was not because the First wanted it nor planned it, the First merely used Spike's instability after re-ensoulment. Everybody's loyalty was tested by the First. It made sense that he would try to sway Spike during his vulnerable times into evil. Just like he did with Robin Wood's history against Spike

>The return of the various past Big Bads amounted to nothing
I don't think anybody with half a working brain actually thought the previous big bads would form an ensemble. All the build-up suggested the Big Bad was ONE entity masquerading as different beings

It wasn't a content problem, it was a small legion of angry buffyfags hating Angel. That was literally it and took as many chances as they could to shit on it.

Thus shitting on anyone that liked Angel.

Most Angel fans consider the show to be David Fury's baby. IIRC Fury was Whedon's second-in-command on the set of Angel and he gave him free reign to run shit while Whedon did other things.

Also, Angel is current MIA on Broadcast TV. It used to run on TNT but they pulled it out of mid-day rotation in the mid-00s and put it on at 5-6 AM until pulling it off the airwaves in the early 00s to run more reruns of Charmed.

Even when Buffy was put back into syndication a couple of years back, Angel remains MIA even though you'd have thought that Fox would have made them a packaged deal.

And yes, I know Angel is on various streaming websites, but TV plays a big role in keeping a show in the collective consciousness.

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. Buffy and Angel come with each other. They're a package deal for me.

I hope I don't suffer this autism with Supernatural and its planned spinoff Wayward Sisters

I used to watch those early morning reruns of it on TNT, pretty comfy in the days before Netflix. I haven't even watched cable for years so no idea what they show now.

That's kinda sad... well like it was said, Amy is still cute, still working actively, and if you ever want something nice to watch, PoI is a good call. And not only for her, it's actually worth it for many other reasons as well.
Yeah, it's called The Gifted.
PS: pple asked I replied, nothing more. Also posting other stuff

When I first watched Buffy years ago, I hated S4 above all else - the big bad sucked, Riley sucked, and the whole Initiative plot sucked and seemed incongruous with the supernatural atmosphere of the show.

Weirdly, re-watching everything last month, I think S4 was my favorite despite my above opinions not changing. It had many of my favorite episodes (Hush, Fear Itself, Something Blue, etc), the use of Spike and Anya was god-tier, bachelor-pad-Giles was great, Willow/Tara was great, and the general move from the usual locations was refreshing.

There used to be a lot more buffyfags, even just last year. I used to get a lot more shit then for amyposting than I do now. I don't know where all those angry buffyfags went, but I cant say I miss them. The remaining Buffy fans have learned to live in harmony with Angel fans and Amyposters, and the Buffy/Angel threads of the past few months have been really nice because of it.

To be fair, the first season of Angel was dog shit. That didn't help.

It took having the designated male sidekick (the Irish guy who played one of the boyfriends from Roseanne) getting fired from the show for being a degenerate junkie for them to free up budget to bring Wes back (he was pretty much not supposed to come back after season one but they needed a male sidekick). Not to mention that it took them a season to figure the fuck out what they wanted to do with WR&H and how to write Cordie/Angel as a duo (not to mention incorporate Gunn and Lorne into the series).

just the fucking way she said "because it's wrong" was instant boner time too. you could have made a successful phone sex line just having SMG saying that line on repeat

don't see how awful it could have been considering people on the show from England didn't believe Marsters was from California

That's what winning feels like. I never thought I'd see the day they would want to get along and hide under Angel's skirt.

Whedon crashed so spectacularly from second avengers, his obnoxious feminist shit and all stuff since then that it retroactively damaged all the good things he accomplished before.

It's pretty great. I remember being so irritated early on when I left Sup Forums only to find all shows I liked getting shit on here, and the many, many, many Lost threads.

Silence of it all is beautiful.

Yeah I remember loving Buffy as a kid but didn't like Angel when it first aired, wasn't until years later when I got around to watching past the first season that I got into it.

go watch The Gifted to see Amy in all her current mommy goodness

Eh...

Season four still sucks, but there is a decent amount of gold in the shit to ploy through it

Season five on the other hand? Fucking hate it. Dawn and what she represents was a death knell to the series, creatively and killing off Joyce was a horrible move I still hate. Also, the ending was pure bullshit asspull as far as Buffy dying somehow negating the need for Dawn to die even though she's mortal lacks the vital plot point of Dawn's blood still containing the energy needed to open/seal the gate.

And the less said about the Dracula season opening episode the better, except to say that it was a huge fucking dick tease of epic proportion

>it took them a season to figure the fuck out what they wanted to do with WR&H and how to write Cordie/Angel as a duo
this. my issue with Angel is that it seemed to have trouble finding its footing and direction longer than it did for Buffy. Angel's mytharc sequences/progression is also a bit weird, with some threats appearing too late into the season, or the story abruptly changing courses (i.e., as much as I love Pylea, I thought it seemed like a curve ball because there wasn't much build-up to it).

Angel's destiny as a champion was vague until the end, and only started getting more concrete with the tro-clon. Even then, Angel 4 was really when it started to pick up the pace and boy did it blow me away. Had the pacing of Angel 4 been more present in the earlier seasons, I would have liked Angel more than I already do now

Buffyfag, try not to speak of doyle, I know you're an uncouth shit, talking about the dead like that, but go fuck yourself, faggot.

imagine the money you could have made if you'd made a bet in Vegas during Buffy's first season that the skinny guy playing Angel would be the person from the show who's arguably the most successful

I always feel weird watching S5 when "it" happens I get so sad but by the time Not Fade Away comes around I just am sad to miss out on more adventures with Illyria and the gang. Assuming the events of the finale didn't play out in the same way I wonder how they would have dealt with Fred's absence as time went on.