What was the turning point?

What was the turning point?

What was the exact moment that made Marvel collapse into the hellhole it is in now?

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What "hellhole"? MARVEL still sells better than D.C. and every other comic book company in the US.

When they decided constant events and relaunches are the way to sell books.

Civil War. It was the point when Marvel decided it was better to be "edgy" and "modern" where you get to re-write an entire character's backstory and personality on an issue by issue basis.

It saved Marvel and greatly boosted their popularity but every single thing since then has been riding on the tails of a dumb fluke and its starting to backfire.

The original Secret Wars. They haven't been the same ever since.

Either when the deal with Didney went public (mostly because now they had to start making money to make The Mouse happy, and shitting out event after event and #1 after #1 was the best way to do it on quick notice) or when Alonso, the biggest faggot in the comic industry, became EiC, and his buttbuddy Brevoort, the second biggest faggot in the comic industry, became his right hand.

Right here.

Why is Stevonnie the header image of a marvel thread?

...black Nick Fury or the start of the MCU?

The death of Ultimate Peter the rise of Ultimate Miles. Everything could be blamed on Bendis because fuck Bendis.

Avengers Disassembled, it was the first in a long line of retarded events.

Thors hammer being stolen by the coward Jane Foster

This, in my casual opinion

Comics have never gone through phases before! Every book is the exact same and it always has been! There are no such things as trends or popularity spikes in the readership markets! The 90's were the same as the 80's which were the exact same as the 70's which were the exact same as the 60's. Its only now that Marvel has changed anything at all about their company. COMICS HAVE NEVER CHANGED AT ALL IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!!! They will never alter the course of their line up ever again!!!!!!!! The company has never hit lows until now!! They are DOOMED! DOOOOOOOOMMMED!

One more day

comicsbulletin.com/108503-2/

This guy knows what's up.

Wow, what an excellent strawman you've built yourself there!

I feel like One More Day is a scapegoat. Though, it does lead to the dumber Peter Parker.

Secret Wars in 1984.

just because you can put out more shit than everybody else doesn't mean what you sell isn't shit

I chose it because it showed that Marvel was ready and willing to throw out years of development in order to make things fit what they think (for whatever fucking reason) audiences want. That's the same basic issue we're facing now.

In a pre-rebirth world we could be having this exact same conversation about DC, btw.

>What was the turning point?

Avengers vs X-men


Someone even try to disagree with me

I feel like Bendis with Avengers Disassembled was that moment, to be honest. The "these characters are lame, these characters are cool" attitude soured a lot of Marvel.

Damn...you're right. AvX was the moment that all the X-Men's momentum in their stories was eradicated just to make the Avengers look good. That was the moment where the shades of grey Cyclops and Emma Frost had were erased so they could be seen as bad guys. Everything the X-Men were working for was thrown away for Bendis Avengers.

My personal moment was this.

Oh and Hopeless still getting regular work after Avengers Arena finished

I felt that Disassembled was just a bad event that could be recovered from, while OMD has proved to be a lasting paradigm shift for Marvel's most popular character. AND it was a bad event.

I'm more mad that people actively praise this series.

>tfw I just finished Avengers Academy and this pain is still fresh

if it's any consolation, they're all the same people that praised Squirrel Girl, Mockingbird, and a lot of other shit comics

True, but those books are likely to comeback more than AA characters.

There's a lot of major turning points.

You could blame Grant Morrison's X-Men run for setting the table of writers writing whatever they want, fuck the consequences. You could blame Bendis and Millar taking the superstar status and turning everything into what they think is cool. You could blame Quesada for using House of M and One More Day to fix things that didn't need fixing. You could blame Millar and Civil War for making people think social commentary more important (and more superficial). You could blame accountants for looking at Civil War sales and saying, "Holy shit, do this every year." You could blame SYNERGY.

I guess it depends on what your main beef is.

t. salty sore loser

MARVEL has been #1 since the 60's. Just accept your reality, number two.

Hydra Cap was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Fans wanted Steve back and as Cap. Instead, he got turned Nazi Cap cause Nick Spencer was pissy that he was getting rightfully shitted on for turning Sam's book into a SJW soap box of the worse kind.

Turning Steve into a Nazi pissed so many people off, as far as being a direct fuck you, that fans just said "fuck it" and waked away from Marvel for good.

Everything else Marvel was doing (Whor, Carol and the Inhumans being shoved down fans throats, the shitting on the X-Men from high above, the continued never ending dumpster fire that the Spider-Man franchise has been since OMD, the SJW bullshit), all of this culminated in the Hydra Cap thing being the straw that broke the camel's back.

Civil War 2 coming directly after the Hydra Cap reveal and being a total and complete flop of a crossover pretty much ensured that Marvel couldn't ignore things this time.

...

Thanks! I spent about 20 minutes preparing the rough draft

The Ultimate Universe in general is the problem, really. It had a massive negative impact on the main universe, and combined with Civil War and everything that came with it, it fucked everything beyond repair.

>Turning Steve into a Nazi pissed so many people off, as far as being a direct fuck you, that fans just said "fuck it" and waked away from Marvel for good.
Yeah, I don't think so.

If the Ultimate universe and Civil War is the problem, then it all leads back to Mark Millar.

Fuck off Nick.

Hell, Rich Johnston has published MULTIPLE letters from comic shop owners who say POINT BLANK that Hydra Cap was the tipping point in terms of fans walking the fuck away from Marvel and refusing to buy their books.

Marvel has been shit for literally 25 years.

I don't believe that, because anyone who's not a retard realizes it's just a fucking story arc. No one "walked the fuck away" from Marvel when they did Superior Iron Man, or even Superior Spider-Man. No one walked away from DC when they did Azrael.

Also the sales of Captain America skyrocketed the issue after the reveal.

but that's wrong

>or even Superior Spider-Man

I did.

I think it's a combination of Civil War 2 and Hydra Cap.

Hydra Cap was the inciting event but Civil War 2 was the moment where the newbie base that Marvel was willing to kill off their longtime fan over, basically walked away if not was shown to be too weak in number and fickle to fully replace the older fans.

It doesn't help that it also continued to diminish Bendis' false claim of being a sales draw and pretty much embodied all of the hate people had for Carol and the Inhumans in one major storyline.

Bendis. Duh.

Again, shut the fuck up Nick.

Sales did not go up and now both Steve and Sam's books are basically two of Marvel's biggest sales disasters.

Fuck, they had to move the reveal that Cap had his history rewritten to the second issue to try and curtail a bigger sales drop, not to mention that we had three/four filler issues pushed in Sam's book because BLM started murdering policemen and you were shilling an anti-police storyline full of spoiled daddy's boy SJW virtue signalling about how police are evil incarnate.

>What was the turning point?
Secret Wars I, Secret Wars II, or X-factor #1. Either way, it'd be around 85~86.

>It was the point when Marvel decided it was better to be "edgy" and "modern"
But that was Ultimates 1, not Civil War.

Don't know if you are Nick Spencer but I should note that you are still the idiot who rage quit DC and continue to shit on them (cause they are killing Marvel in the sales department) because your vanity project Thunder Agents book flopped and you thought you were too pretty to write Supergirl, a book that at the time was a fan favorite.

If you're going to base "Marvel going to shit" on "when the X-men went to shit and had everything they were working towards thrown out the window" then that'd be X-factor #1 in 1985. That issue single-handedly killed the X-men as a franchise and replaced it with a lifeless husk of its former self.

It was the day "Big Shooter" got let go from Marvel. Without him running the ship Marvel got slowly overrun with queers and lazy bums that had no respect for deadlines

>those abs
How can Sup Forums not like this?

>Hydra Cap was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Literally only tumblr-casuals and MCU shills have any problem with Captain Hydra and their opinions don't matter because they don't buy comics in the first place.

Why are you lieing? Maybe stick to tumblr. I'm sure they'd be more down with swallowing your alternative facts.

No, that would be 1998 when Marvel fired Joe Kelly/Steve Seagle.

X-Fags were in denial about the soulless nature of the franchise until Seagle/Kelly got fired and the franchise's fanbase never really recovered from that

>thrown away for Bendis Avengers
Yup. And then what happened?


Bendis went to X-men

And then Hickman took over Avengers which...was good, but there were a lot of plot things that made the Avengers unlikable. Beating up Starbrand was one of them.

>It was the day "Big Shooter" got let go from Marvel
Shooter was responsible for:
>driving away Marvel's top talent
>starting Marvel on the Event-model road that has directly led to the problems we have today
>destroying the X-men franchise

The last few years of Shooter's tenure as Marvel's EiC were almost directly responsible for most of the problems we have today.

Cap Steve Rogers did have major delays following the first coupe of issues.

Also, Rich Johnson is so busy sucking dick at Marvel that he probably would have zero problem spiking any and all stories about Marvel ordering changes to Steve's book and the Americop storyline due to backlash and fears of supporting the murder of policemen.

But that's the thing, it was already soulless by that point. What killed its soul was X-factor #1. It just took a decade and a half for x-fags to realise it.

when sana amanat was put in charge of the company and she started hiring literal bloggers to write their comics and literal webcomic artists to draw them

>Rich Johnson is so busy sucking dick at Marvel
Is this a fucking joke? Rich has made a fucking career out of making clickbait articles revolving around pissing on Marvel. How far up your own ass do you have to be to think that he's somehow a Marvel shill? He's the literal opposite.

I need sauce on this.

The problem with AvX wasn't the Avengers being in the right, it was that they had ZERO clue what to do in the aftermath.

Uncanny Avengers got fucked over by them hiring a lazy hack to draw the first couple of issues, resulting in delays that made it utterly irrelevant to the greater Marvel Universe. Meanwhile, any sort of build-up Bendis had towards the X-Men got revealed to be bullshit smoke and mirrors with Battle of the Atom, the aftermath showing that Bendis was only concerned about stealing Kitty from the franchise, doing X-Men XOvers to boost the failing sales of his other books (Miles' book and the GOTG), with the bullshit "Iceman is gay" thing being shoved into the final issues so Bendis could prevent whoever followed him from ignoring his run entirely.

This. Making Sana Amanat the Editor-in-Chief was bad enough, but once they made her the CEO all hell broke loose.

>But that was Ultimates 1, not Civil War.
What was X-Factor 1?

>Avengers being in the right

I'm not sure we read the same event

Editorial threw everything and the sink at the x-men to try and make them look like the bad guys, and they only made the Avengers look more like faggots.

Rich refused to run anything critical of Brand New Day until around two years ago. Either because Slott was leaking him shit on the downlow or because of the rumor that Quesada took part of a well publicized bribe Rich offered where he promised to spike a story of the Big Two's choice if they made a charity donation to a cause of Rich's choosing.

Also, have you fucking read Bleeding Cool lately? Rich realized he was losing clicks to SJW comic sites and started shiling SJW Marvel books like crazy. The only reason he's even acknowledging Marvel fucked up big is that retailers who he talks to for trends and shit flat out are telling the bugger that Marvel's SJW crap is driving away the customers in droves and DC killing the SJW pandering relaunch DCYoung and not even HIDING the fact that they realized that they fucked up chasing the SJW and all but got on bended knee begging old school fans to come back, right down to killing Superbro and Nu52 Lois Lane, and bringing back Married Superman/Lois and Wally fucking West.

Did they really make the new cap a black woman?

Brought Jean Grey back and basically began the Scott Summers hate train by way of having Scott tell his wife Maddie to fuck off and abandoned her and their son to chase after Jean.

The X-Men were in the wrong because they had spent several years of story predicting Hope was going to kill millions. And Scott truly did not care one iota about how deadly the Phoenix was or it's history of causing death and destruction and how the only one who was able to successfully harness it (Rachel) was rendered brain dead for several months because of it.

As Havok stated in Uncanny Avengers: Scott knew the Phoenix was uncontrollable and deadly, yet STILL decided to ignore all previous experience in dealing with it for the slim chance it would not end with Bishop's doomsday scenario where Hope goes Dark Phoenix and kills millions.

All to pander to silver age nostalgiafags who wanted the O5 back despite silver age X-men being shit that most people didn't give a single fuck. It wasn't until Claremont came on that the X-men became good, and it became good on the back of Claremont wanting the X-men franchise to be generational with new generations of mutants replacing the older ones as each generation retires over time with lasting consequences.

X-factor #1 did all of the following in one issue:
>brought back the worst X-men team at the expense of the one that people actually cared about and set the precedent for "original' X-men being more important than new X-men
>brought Beast back into the fold as an X-men-only character despite being at his best when he was an Avenger
>ruined Cyclops' character by having him abandon his wife and child the second he finds out Jean is back
>ruined Dark Phoenix Saga, arguable the all-time greatest X-men story, to bring Jean back
>gave a giant fuck you to Chris Claremont, the man who reinvented the X-men
>threw out the X-men's generational aspect which has led to the "each next generation of x-men just becomes cannon fodder to be killed off in events"
>presented Iceman and Angel, two of the least interesting mutants, as core super-important mutants at the expense of genuinely interesting mutants
>began the X-spinoff hell that created the 90s

I tend to think that Rich is only covering the huge backlash against SJW Marvel because, quite frankly, all of the other websites are purposely burying the story if not approaching it from the angle of "fuck those filthy nerds!" fanboy bashing.

Even then, he's willingly pushing the narrative Spencer and his ilk are shilling that DC Rebirth isn't a hit. But yeah, I would assume the comic shops that he regularly talks to for boots on the ground sales information are making it impossible for him to bury the story like Comic Alliance and the Mary Sue.

>have you fucking read Bleeding Cool lately?
>reading BleedingCuck
>ever
Sorry, Rich but no I'm not going to give your trash a read.

That's Ms America not Captain America.

She was a creation of Keiron Gillen for his Young Avengers run, after he was banned from using Patriot in the book.

I'm in agreement with this.

This was where they went full retard, also the same time Carol died, and was replaced by that fake.

>She was a creation of Keiron Gillen for his Young Avengers run
Gillen didn't create MAC. Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta did for their Vengeance mini-series.

And yet the three years that proceeded AvX were better than the three years that preceeded it for everyone but the X-men.

The spin-off hell actually happened earlier with New Mutants.

X-Factor actually got to be good/justify it's existence once Bob Layton (who was clearly phoning it in) left and Louis Simonson took over. It gave us the X-Factor kids (Rictor, Skids, Rusty Collins, Boom Boom, Leech, and Artie), Apocalypse, ARCHANGEL, and the PAD run.

>The spin-off hell actually happened earlier with New Mutants.
Thing is that New Mutants fed into the generational aspect that Claremont was building the X-men on. The New Mutants were the next generation that would have graduated into becoming the X-men. X-factor was the antithesis of that. It was "fuck the next generation, here's the ORIGINAL X-men back!"

Yes, X-factor brought us some good things which is why people tend not to specify X-factor as a whole, because the DAMAGE that X-factor caused was almost entirely done with the first issue. What came later doesn't change the fact that it's built on a foundation that directly led to the end of the X-men.

I think that all is a factor. Sum grater than the whole and all that.
I think something we also forget is that comics have become a pyrrhic where numbers are such a mess and that starvation to be a relevant media again is strong.

newsarama.com/29574-first-captain-america-was-a-hydra-agent-now-he-s-a-sell-out.html
comicbookmovie.com/comics/comics-controversial-captain-america-steve-rogers-1-sells-out-a142283
are we done here?

Oh my god this bullshit again

You're wrong and possibly retardadly wrong. We established this shit well and long ago back when it came out, it was dreadful, but it was done, and I am not blowing my night on it

>b-b-but muh mouthpiece character told scott something

Yeah, notice how he tells it, but doesn't show it though?

Ever wonder why the author felt like he *had* to have Alex still bitch about AvX?

Because they were massive faggots to the x-men, readership threw a fucking fit, and still needed to have this pandering bullshit strawman equivalent of 2016's "This is for saying "feminist" like it's a four letter woooooord" crap


You're wrong, your fun is wrong, your brain is wrong

Deal with it

Currently? Avengers Disassembled. I mean we got some good but holy shit did Bendis get the ball rolling.

Explain.

mostly because the cancer that pervaded everyone but x-men all jumped ship to the x-men, leaving sloppy leftovers for other writers to salvage, the corpse of the mutant universe ultimately not buying enough time for them to build up as fast as the faggotry could destroy the x-men, leaving us with an overall homogenous shit

the worst things about Avengers vs X-Men is that it destroyed Phoenix lore

-The Phoenix doesnt destroy planets just because, for shits and giggles, Jean destroyed Star (which ended up killing the people of a planet which orbited that star) because she had been corrupted, mind raped.
-It is possible to be a good healthy Phoenix host for years, like Rachel, or Jean when she died definitely in Morrison's run. They didnt ask for Rachels help when the Phoenix was coming.
-You dont need to practice kung fu and yoga and marial arts in the tibet with Iron Fist to be a good Phoenix Host.

the story was plain bad. Bendis himself said he invented that thing of Hope needing to practice Kung Fu to control the Phoenix because he couldnt think of a good way to get the Avengers involved in the event.

pic related was my, fuck this shit, moment

What's there to explain?

>hellhole it is in now
>now
Infinity Gauntlet created 4 shameless spin offs in the 90s up that was basically trying to catch the lighting twice. They were all hot garbage
Spider-man Clone Saga took what was suppose to be a 4 issue story and drag it on to be a 3 year nightmare across 4+ books and 32+ issues.
Everything in the Ultimates baring the first Ultimates and most of Ultimate Spider-man
Dissembled
House of M
Civil War

They have been a hellhole for nearly 3 decades and counting. What killed them was from within by the owners using it for other means, the greed for profits, and the complete disconnect of understanding what kept people buying comic books.
We only pay attention now because we have grown up and this isn't out childhood shit, it's "new" shit.

Gillen's Young Avengers in my opinion. There is no real marker, but that was one of the first books where social justice bullshit took the driver seat from Superhero action. It was by a major writer and artist, and a pretty major title.

>-You dont need to practice kung fu and yoga and marial arts in the tibet with Iron Fist to be a good Phoenix Host.

Over a weekend

Practice kung fu and yoga over a weekend.

The mental gymnastics of AvX is astonishing. I mean WHY? The story should have been:

>Quasar: Oh Damn.....better warn Cap!
>Cap: Logan, just a got a deep space warning from Quasar, the Phoenix is coming to Earth.
>Logan: Hey, Slim, we got some--
>Cyclops: Phoenix Trouble? Yeah we know we got Rachel here just in case.
>Logan: Mind me bringing the Avengers?
>Cyclops: We'll need all hands on deck. Maybe after this we'll barbecue and kick their butts in baseball.


Then build from there.

How is it better for everyone other than the PC characters who's shit writing results in them being unable do no wrong in the eyes of the public.

If you're a none legacy character life has gotten shittier and shittier with each passing year.

>>Cap: Logan, just a got a deep space warning from Quasar, the Phoenix is coming to Earth.

Reminder: Cap had just pinned a medal of honor on Scott personally, and he went to logan for "Scott dirt" first.
And when Logan of all people accused scott of being pussy mad by Jean (which even just thinking it, is basically taking a long sloppy shit on the entire character of Emma Frost), Cap took it at face value.

Killing off Wolverine is the one right thing Marvel has done in the past 12 years

Civil war.

They have had constant event comics since civil war and they nearly always some group of heroes fighting one another.

Wonderful. Why couldn't it have been Cap & Cyclops just teaming up using awesome tactical shit? The after it's all said and done Steve starts using Scott's moves and visa-versa?

2008.

Secret Wars was literally the end of their universe. It never really got recreated.

It was the Empty Hand

Are you somehow under the impression that AvX happened in 2014? We're comparing the comics of 2008-2011 to the comics of 2011-2014 and the latter period had much better comics than the former. The "PC characters" and "legacy character life" that you're hating on so heavily didn't really become a factor until ~2015.