Who was in the wrong here?

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Cap

cap

Tony, anyone who says otherwise is retarded.

t. government/corporate shills

t. brainlet

Cap was wrong to oppose a control on the avengers.
Tony was wrong to go apeshit on a brainwashed guy.

both were in the wrong. cap is wrong in not needing any oversight/ accountability and tony is being a typical faggot who fucked up and now think everyone else is as big a fuck up as him. The government in MCU has been subverted but that does not mean avangers should not pay for property damage,etc

>"dude side with the clearly incompetent to the point of evil government so they use you as a cleanup crew for moneyed interests and/or hydra! that's what heroes do!"
>accusing others of being brainlets
O, my rubber irony

((you))

it's ok to be wrong user...

Marvel

Name one person qualified to give that oversight, who knows how to handle these people, keep them under control, know when it's time to stop debating and deal with a crisis, and unerstands these people cannot be replaced, you cannot threaten them with jail, fire them, ask them to retire, because there's not thousands of potential replacements waiting for a chance.

How is Tony going to redeem himself after the shitshow that was his choices in this film?

Cap should have told Tony that his parents were assassinated by Hydra and slowly explained that they used brain washed soldiers and that Bucky was turned into a super soldier and mind fucked to do their bidding and needs help.
Tony should have kept his shit in check.

1. cap himself or someone like him, same way JL works
2. you find what they want and hold it over them or in some cases depower or jail them.

The one that created an army of genocidal robots, then sold out to the corrupt UN because he was afraid to face the consequence of his actions. The one that drove away his entire team except his crippled sidekick and the robot that crippled him.

>you find what they want and hold it over them or in some cases depower or jail them.
yeah because that worked out in the actual film when they tried doing this exact thing

Both of them. Mostly Tony.
>Hey we should submit ourselves to the authority of the United Nations, a political body which almost never has the best interests of the average person in mind
>What can go wrong?

I mean unless Tony was just planning to go along with the Accords until he felt otherwise, he was literally advocating for the Avengers to become nothing more than a political tool. The UN doesn't like what a nation does within its own borders? They'd better fall in line, or the Avengers will be paying them a visit.

There is no political body on this Earth that can properly manage a team of super heroes. There just isn't.

The one trying to murder someone else

Disney. The correct answer is always Disney.

Not the one abetting a murderer?

1. So, what they had before the movie anyway.
2. And then something happens and OOPS millions dead/humanity exterminated/ruled by Loki/ruled by HYDRA/world consumed by Dormammu because there were no Avengers to intervene, because bureaucrats in suits can't stand not being in charge. You don't get it. ALL the Avengers need to be available, to a man, 24/7 or you're risking life as we know it.

Mind control has to be some form of extreme coercion.

>ALL the Avengers need to be available, to a man
I guess this is the key that gives away that this is bait. Im multitasking so don't expect much from me

Wasnt Hawkeye brainwashed? Why wasnt Tony mad at him?
MUH MOM?

its a bypass of responsibility. like when you use a kid(under 14) or a mentally challenged person as a tool for your crime.

>durr Buckey should be punished for a crime that he committed while under literal unbreakable mind control
lawfags, this is your mindset

Kinda different when people are out to kill you. Cap wanted Bucky alive. Even if Bucky was guilty, the right thing to do was arrest him. Cap got him arrested. A man freed him, Cap should have turned Bucky back in to be arrested again. Stark should have arrested Bucky. That's what Stark agreed to do. Trying to kill him is way more wrong than Cap fleeing with him.

That is not what the law would say. how can he be a lawfag if he is not using the law?

It's not bait, it's fact. The MCU does not have thousands of other supers lounging around to take up the slack if the Avengers are undermanned or dealing with a committee or red tape. Keep in mind the suit wanted to nuke New York to stop Loki, and it wouldn't have worked. Ssure you might kill Loki himself, but the portal device would have been fine, the invasion continues.

He might have if Bucky hadn't told Steve there were a half dozen HYDRA super soldiers who could take down nations.

It really should have not been two different movies.
One about Cap trying to find Bucky before the authorities do and then an entirely separate movie about the Avengers fucking up and causing an international incident.
Trying to stitch the two together with Zemo's """"""evil plan"'"''''' was an asspull.

>its a bypass of responsibility

The law should be used to hold you accountable for the choices you make. Mind control/conditioning literally removes your capability to make that choice. How can you be a murderer, in those circumstances?

Crap, Should HAVE been two movies.

Doctor Strange.

Placing Bucky under Shield custody while there are potential undercover Hydra agents still lurking around is not a good plan, Cap made the right decision

well like I said oversight need not be red tape or committee. It would be lunacy to put the team into hands of the guys who were going to nuke NYC but that does not mean 0 accountability is the way to go. + now they have these guys as a team but as more people join they may need training and structure, some may need pay,etc. suits were winging it but so was everyone else.
>ALL the Avengers need to be available, to a man
I seriously doubt falcon will be stopping Dormammu any time soon. some of them don't bring anything that a trained team of soldiers could not bring. structure needs to be built, you can't be winging it forever but as is you are playing the whole "yeah the doctor is an ass but he is the only doctor in the zombie apocalypses" "We can't worry about the cost, those communist bugs will overrun us",etc. sword and other organizations like it are the step in the right direction, you learn that the world is bigger and you adapt instead of hoping 1 team can keep you safe in a bubble.

Cap should have turned Bucky back in and either

A) Tried to take down the hydra super soldiers without bucky, just his team
B) Told the current Avengers about it and let them under the accords handle it
C) Done a combination of A and B, where he goes with his team and tells the accord signed Avengers what his doing

The only reason they fight is cause Stark and BP want Bucky arrested, if he was arrested they could have avoided fighting.

>let Buckey be taken away and be executed or disappeared in a black site or returned to Hydra clutches over something he had no control over
"no"

I think that would cause both of them to drag a bit. What suffered here was the fight between pro and anti registration people, 1 it was too early (not enough characters and we don't know many of them well enough to know which way they would lean) and 2) airport fight was too short

Pretty sure SHIELD didn't exist at that point, it was just some generic international operation under the Accords.

>I seriously doubt falcon will be stopping Dormammu any time soon

Not him, but there are some guys who are Avengers, and then some who are "Avengers".

I hesitate to say that people like Hawkeye and Falcon can be depended upon in the same way as the rest of them.

Steve is pretty wrong from the start.
He had solid Intel that one of the world's most dangerous terrorists was going to raid a police station in the middle of Lagos and didn't tell the US government, the Nigerian government or even the Lagos Police that it was going to happen so they could at least TRY to contain the situation.
That's incredibly negligent and a dumb move from a veteran operative.

There is no indication the Germans had any plans to do this. Also, Hydra? They're not in the movie. AND if Cap feared this, he wouldn't have helped get Bucky arrested. If he thought Bucky was dead no matter what the fighting wouldn't have stopped when War Machine showed up. They'd have died together.

>veteran operative
Hardly. Remember that he signed on near the end of the war, got frozen, and then ran around doing nonsense with SHIELD. There are probably actual WW2 vets who saw more action than he did.

>There is no indication the Germans had any plans to do this

But Wakanda did. And Black Panther (their fucking king) outright told Steve that he wanted Bucky dead.

He served for a year and saw combat multiple times during that year, in what sense is he not a veteran?

Superheroes being controlled by the UN and a bunch of africans is the most stupid cuck idea in all of capeshit

I laughed at all the globalist shilling in this flick

>Superheroes being controlled by the UN
They would never be allowed to do anything, ever. Consider that a single nation can delay emergency response by deliberating and quibbling over it for days, weeks, even months. The UN is comprised of hundreds of nations. Even if you limit the decision to Security Council members only there's absolutely no way any decisions would get made. They'd just table it after no consensus could be reached and then opt for something less controversial, as the UN always does.

The writers, producers and directors. They totally missed the point. For starters this movie should have ended with Ironman killing the cap and Bucky taking his place. Instead it got a pointless bland ending.

Furthermore if Bucky was going to be the reason for the fight and not the political issue like on the comics they should have revealed that Bucky killed Tony parents to him at the begining of the movie... If the Cap was to fight for a personal selfish reason so should have Tony. Heck, they could edit the movie correctly and that would still work. I can totally see Iron man being a douche and pressing on the political agenda over a personal grudge. That´s who he is on the comics.

Except the captain didn´t give 2 shits about if the Avengers where regulated on the movie. He fought them off because of Bucky so even though his actions where right his motives where wrong.

In the movie? Cap.

in the comics? Iron man.

Steve Rogers is wrong but is supposed to be the sympathetic side being distrustful and skeptic after his experience with SHIELD being controlled by HYDRA and Stark being a dick.

>He served for a year

He was doing USO shows, then went and saved Bucky from Hydra, then fought Hydra for a bit, then got frozen.

That doesn't make him some sort of tactical genius with keen insight into military operations. But since Captain America fought in "the war", that's how he's written. The comics do the same - I've always assumed it was an American thing.

>"Bucky a good boy, He dindu nuffin
Cap

...

Yea, but they'd have to go to war with Germany to get him extradited. They weren't exactly happy with what Black Panther did either

>For starters this movie should have ended with Ironman killing the cap and Bucky taking his place.

That's stupid, why would America accept a serial criminal brainwashed by the Russians as a symbol of their country?

there isnt an ounce of self awareness in this thread

the gorvernament wanted control over the group they already had control over to because they caused colateral damaged stoping a nuke that would destroy the entire city from aliens that were already DESTROYING the entire city


Was this movie writen by the people that wrote fallout 3?

So what's the minimum amount of time to be a veteran?

Zemo

Iron Man, and it was so out of character for this billionaire vigilante to agree to give up his agency to a blotted UN bureaucracy.

Cap was a soldier and didn't live through the 60s, you'd think he would be the one more in favor of it.

To cover up that they killed Rogers. They would need to keep the symbol alive and only Bucky can carry that. Only Tony would know... and would never admit it even to the higher ups out of guilt. You don´t just kill the Cap.

Also Bucky has done so on the comics.

For no other reason that "it happened like that in the comic"

By dying in Avengers 4

>gorvernament
Jesus Christ, did you intentionally fuck this up?

I'm not denying that he's a veteran. I'm just saying that when he makes dumb decisions, that's actually MORE likely than not. Saying "Well he fought Hydra in Europe so that means he knows how to handle politically sensitive situations" is kind of weird.

Yeah I see now that my posts didn't make that clear. My bad on that.

yeah cause its not realy a country trying to control then, is the fucking UN

thats maybe the funniest joke in all marvel movies

This. None of us have read the Sokovia Accords, but if Cap thinks opposing it means saving more lives, then that's what I'm going with. Keeping the secret about Tony's parents was not okay though, and Cap should feel bad about that.

But in the movie universe it's a terrible, dangerous idea. Rogue actors and hostile states have already proven their ability to control Bucky, making him murder important American citizens and then escape for decades. The only way to counteract that would be for the government to put Bucky on a tight leash, which he would never do.

Plus everyone would be able to see his giant vibranium arm that doesn't fit in the uniform.

Plus Cap doesn't have a secret identity, everyone calls him by his name half the time. He has videos they show in high schools where he tells kids to brush their teeth and do pushups. Everyone knows what his face, voice, personal information, and mannerisms are.

Plus Tony would never let the man who killed his parents work alongside him in the superhero UN force he's trying to create.

The fact that this movie can still bring about such debate and conflicting opions show how good of a movie it is.

Steve didn't trust his team and kept way too much information to himself. He could have avoided a lot of trouble if he had just trusted people.

>muh comics
>this is what really happened.

None of REALLY happened. Comic fans are such cancer. In the comics spider-man fought megatron, should the first transformers movie have really had spider-man in it? Comics do shit on the cover to get you to buy them. People bought the "death of superman" comic cause they thought it would be worth money. This is comic book collector mentality. They think nothing of story, character or plot.

care to explain what the difference in conflict was in the comics?

It's not even a political situation at that point, though. It's a tactical situation. He didn't even let the police station know so that could be ready for the attack.
With a year of leading a commando team in a war zone and a year (I'm guessing) of leading SHIELD teams on covert ops on top of fighting an alien invasion in downtown New York it's something he should have thought of.
It was a very un-Steve thing to do.

I didn't say it was a good idea, I just said that's why they'd do it.

Not the only reason though. Had the captain died the movie would have had a strong ending and a more radical change on the status quo.

With the captain alive and half of the avengers as fugitives you basically go back to square one of the movie while with Bucky as the Cap and Tony destroyed by guilt you get character progression and an actual change on the cinematic universe.

They could always bring Rogers back later from a parallel universe or make up that he was a Skrull agent or something on the next movie like DC did with Superman.

>He didn't even let the police station know so that could be ready for the attack

They were African cops. They would have ended up shooting at the Avengers, too.

In the big picture, YES. Tony was clearly the dumb one here (trust the government? Ross? LOL...).

About Cap, only "small issue" was omitting the true for the rest of the team about Winter Soldiers kills (because it costs a lot of unnecessary conflicts).

In the very end, which way Avengers must operate? Only in the shadows, without bureaucrats and heroes who can't carry the piano (Iron Man and Rhodes).

>you replied to me
>I have reply to you

I never said you said it was a good idea, I was commenting on the idea you brought up in general, but have an upvote for your insecurity redditor

Both were wrong.

Cap said he's above the law if he thinks he's right, and while he was doing the right thing, his motivation was purely his friendship with Bucky, not justice.

Iron Man was wrong for thinking a corrupt government is something the Avengers should be answering to. The same government that was literally about to drop a nuke on Manhattan

>Steve didn't trust his team

He certainly seemed to trust, Falcon, Hawkeye, Wanda and Sharon....and they sure took a gamble on kidnapping Ant-man and hoping he'd say yes. He asked all of them to help him fight some super soldiers.

Not that guy, but in the comics Tony became Secretary of Defense and made it policy that not just active superheroes, but literally anyone who had even a hit of super abilities, was legally required to register with the government and serve on a government controlled superteam.

Pretty much the entire plot of this movie depends on both Steve and Tony acting completely out of character.

movie
the motive is stupid, if they were not there, aliens would had killed everyone in earth
there is no reason to not agree with the law cause it doesnt ask much, its just canon fother to keep the public at bay


Comics
Stupid TV super heroes made a mutant with nuke powers blow up a school so 400 kids died

then the USA wants to regulate all people with powers just like they would do mutants, force then to register their powers and keep then under survalance all the time, cap doesnt agree with it but they dont even give him a chance to say anything and atack him because shield was under some bitch that hates him.
They do this with eveyrone that doesnt say yes. and send then to a prison in another dimension where they would feel pain 24/7 because of a diferent atmosphere or some shit.

>Cap said he's above the law if he thinks he's right, and while he was doing the right thing, his motivation was purely his friendship with Bucky, not justice.

Wrong on pretty much all accounts.

>kidnapping Ant-man

What? Falcon asked him for help. There was no kidnapping.

desu while weaker, hawkeye is pretty useful with his accuracy

He could work together with Falcon to become an arrow raining death eagle.

>canon fother
cannon fodder, i admit fucking that up bad

I don't think Captain America should've died, but I would have changed the ending.

>Cap infiltrates the Raft and frees his teammates, but stays behind, surrendering to give them the opportunity to escape.
>Gets locked up.
>Stark goes to see him.
>They have a face-to-face conversation about all they've been through. Stark is still angry at Cap.
>Cap says his team won't stop fighting to make the world a better place, and reassures Stark that if Stark needs him or his team, they'll come through, because it's the right thing to do.
>Movie ends with Stark returning the the emptied Avengers base. Spider-Man is gone, Rhodes is paralyzed (no mechanic legs) and Vision is withdrawl.
>He sits in the conference table where they all sat together. He's all alone.

End the movie on that note.

This. I have a buddy where we don't see eye to eye about it. He's Team Stark and Ozymandias, whereas I'm Team Cap and Rorshach.

Ozymandias was right

>End the movie on that note.
they would end the movie with a stupid quip

QUICK GIVE ME THE MOST STUPID QUIP HE COULD SAY IN THAT MOMENT:

Not alongside him. Tony would continue to hunt him down and he would still be a rogue but the world would still think he is alive.
It´s not about them pretending the avengers are ok, but pretending the states didn´t just kill the Cap. It could work because as a martyr Rogers would be even more dangerous to them on a political level.

The masses might not forgive the death of the captain and it could actually lead to a civil war.

12 masked heroes on an airport is not a war.

Steve Rodgers
Doctor Steven Strange, Sorcerer Supreme
Nick Fury
Phil Coulson

>"At least there's no more coffee grinds on the disposal."

"looks like I'm all alone"
>credits plays
youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4

If it was literally any other dude being unjustly hunted by the government he wouldn't really give a shit user

This cannot be argued with.