Is this the worst comic book franchise ever?

I've read Woflman's, Jurgens' Johns' and Lobdell's

all of it tedious and pretty crappy
is there any good Teen Titans stories besides Warren's one shot and the obviously superior PAD's Young Justice

the only Teen Titans i like was the show on Cartoon Network.
the good one.

>the good one
PFFFFFFFFFFTTTT

That stank!

Almost as much as the Teen Titans

Lobdell's Run is the worst Teen Titans run . Everyone knows that.

the current run is inoffensive I guess

it was actually as, if not more, entertaining than the other runs I read
it's not a good book but he actually tries doing something different

TTG isn't even that bad honestly. It's pretty funny.

The current Teen Titans book is good.

I legit think the cartoons are the only good thing to come from those comics. I tried reading the Johns' run as it was coming out, and stopped after the issue when Rex the Wonder Dog eats Wendy and Marvin alive because "LOL SUPERFRIENDS IS FOR FAGS, EXTREME EDGE WILL NEVER GO OUT OF STYLE!"

A majority of JLA is pretty bad

I like Johns' TT *and* PAD's YJ.
I don't give a FUCK.

And have you read John's TT after he leaves? Most of that is good too.

Why is Kid Flash black? New KF or did they blackwash Wally?

>I've read Woflman's

But this is one of the best cape books of all time.

The soap opera melodrama of Claremont's X-Men but less self indulgent with tighter plots, fewer characters and more diverse villains and stories. Plus Deathstroke and Judas Contract.

>"LOL SUPERFRIENDS IS FOR FAGS, EXTREME EDGE WILL NEVER GO OUT OF STYLE!"
Why do so many cartoonfags have such an extreme aversion to edge?
Is a a psychological thing? Do you guys get "adults don't need edge" and "childish cartoons are MORE adult than edge" mixed up in your minds?

New Kid Flash that is Wally's cousin that's also named Wally.

The problem with Wolfman's Teen Titans to me (not OP) is that it *really* suffers from some of the writing tropes of the era. Some stuff from that period holds up really well such as O'Neil's stuff, but NTT, especially the early stuff, has a *lot* of tell don't show writing and hammy dialogue. The plot and art is rally good, it just suffers from when it was written. That's one reason I really like the cartoon, it took the general outline of the Wolfman comics and then modernized it.

Lobdell's run had so much wasted potential. Harvest was an interesting concept that was terribly executed. What was the point of bringing time travel into a Hunger Games ripoff?

The cartoon is more simplistic though.
It's targeted at a younger audience and it shows in the writing.

this is the weirdest sentiment that I will never understand
it's so hard to read issue by issue, just uninteresting as fuck
random old LoSH and X-Men could keep my attention even without knowing any context
Wolfman's like a really boring writer
his Vigilante was complete shit until Kupperberg took over too


no I haven't read the Johns run after he left, I just read his issues
what do you recommend?

I'm just so disillusioned with them I've tried so many fucking stories while normally teen superheroes are my jam. I'll read Gen13, New Mutants, Avengers Academy, and like anything similar but have wasted my past few weeks reading all these Teen Titans comics without a single one leaving a good impression with me

There's a difference bertween using adult themes and writing, and blatant edge. One is great and the other is just pandering to adolescents who want to prove to everyone how "mature" they are.

>this isn't your dad's teen titans

My problem with the writing wasn't it's simplicity. It was the exposition dumps and stinted dialogue. The general premise of the Teen Titans comics lends itself really well to kids (unsurprisingly). What the cartoon didn't have was limitations of the inudustry at the time, leading to characters just saying what they're feeling and explaining what's happening.

>no I haven't read the Johns run after he left, I just read his issues
>what do you recommend?
Bear in mind that I liked Johns' stuff so you might not share my taste, but I thought everything after he left was good up until Nicola Scott started penciling. (Not saying she was the issue, mind you). The ones that I liked have a lot of fun stuff, from Starro to Clock King to more Ravager to the return of the future TT, more melodrama, fun issues where they have to fill their ranks after Infinite Crisis etc...

>That's one reason I really like the cartoon, it took the general outline of the Wolfman comics and then modernized it.

>and the other is just pandering to adolescents who want to prove to everyone how "mature" they are.
>>this isn't your dad's teen titans
But I think cartoonfags accuse things of this where it doesn't apply because they are confused people.

I really disliked how Johns' characterized everyone
I was 13 years old reading it and couldn't connect to a single person while I loved Dixon's Robin and Kesel's Superboy

>I was 13 years old reading it and couldn't connect to a single person
I read it at that age and loved it.
Then again I liked Identity Crisis at that age too.
But I also loved PAD's YJ.
I think you guys are just too negative.

Wolfman's Titans is so much worse than Claremont's X-Men, it's ridiculous.

I was loving PAD's YJ so much
Johns TT just felt oddly not that optimistic and that's something I couldn't relate too
I'm not negative at all, just want good and fun stories about teen heroes

Your mom is worse than my mom, but it's all pussy.

I want to read it but I'm waiting for the volumes 1 to come out. Raven finally looks cute again.

Most of the criticism for Johns run comes from how he handled the YJ characters. His run was the beginning of the character derailment that got worst under later writers.

Thay was Judd winnick in his Titan series.

>Deathstroke And Judas contract
Are the worst parts of NTT.

>Johns TT just felt oddly not that optimistic and that's something I couldn't relate too
This is the same reason why I think so many of you hate the DCEU/Identity Crisis etc.
The way I here you people talk, it's like there's an extremely narrow "tone" that's likable/relatable/correct, and anything outside of that is bad/not enjoyable.

Oh come the fuck off it; you know what I meant. You can't honestly tell me that Wolfman run on Teen Titans doesn't have aspects that aged really poorly.

is Winnick's Titans readable at all? I liked his Green Arrow run

I LOVE PAD's YJ, and I don't mind John's TT, because we already got PAD, and no one was gonna do it like he did.
Johns just did what he's good at.
Besides, Johns' Kon is good too.
I don't like that he got rid of the Impulse costume tho, but Bart's comeback issue with Deathstroke was pretty great.

DC is the best comic company out there.
Just look at this quality.

Nah, there's plenty of tones that work for comics. Noir, light-hearted, horror, introspective, etc. But what will almost always be shit is edginess for edginess' sake, case in point: Identity Crisis having Dr Light rape Sue Dibny just for shock value.

its exactly the reason I hate the DCEU/Identity Crisis etc...
you can tell epic and optimistic stories that are serious too
but a team focused on kids/YAs should be fun
it's inherent in the concept
but Johns' writing just lacks soul, its so sycophantic, he's like the Michael Bay of comics with even less heart

What I read of his Titans (like two issues) was okay, but OP should read his Outsiders. That was pretty good.

>the other is just pandering to adolescents who want to prove to everyone how "mature" they are.

It works to be fair.

Of course it has aspects that aged poorly, comics were a completely different medium that served a completely different purpose in the 80's. It's just retarded to say the cartoon is a superior work that "modernized" the Wolfman run when it's faux-anime Cliffnotes adaptation for 5 year olds.

I liked Barr's Outsiders a bunch actually
that gets pretty grim but fits the tone of the book perfectly

>case in point: Identity Crisis having Dr Light rape Sue Dibny just for shock value.
Yeah, and you guys obsess over how edgy that is an ignore all the great getting inside characters heads that Meltzer does. The characters in IC feel a lot more 3D than in a lot of comics.

>Barr's
I was talking about Winnick's. Maybe I worded it badly.

But that level of crime worked for the plotline: anything less wouldn't have justified the brainraping.

Not all shocking stuff is just for shock value.

I just wish they hadn't erased it from continuity like they do every story of character-building consequence.

I can attest to this.
My young cousins like Civil War (the comic) and all that stuff a lot.

>The characters in IC feel a lot more 3D than in a lot of comics.

You're either mental or have only ever read shitty comics.

>is this the worst comic book franchise ever?
I'd rather read every run of Teen Titans over a single (current) Champions book any day.

oh I'll check that out then, they had an interesting dynamic

Nah, you're wrong. IC has very good character work.
Green Arrow for example. Ollie feels so... human.

>is this the worst comic book franchise ever?

No, that would be Spider-Man. I wish it weren't true, but it is.

>But that level of crime worked for the plotline: anything less wouldn't have justified the brainraping.

The problem is that they decided to tackle an EXTREMELY touchy subject, and did so with the finesse of a toddler wielding a sledge hammer. If you want to put rape in your comic, fine. It can be done right just as it can be in any other medium, Watchmen is a good example. But don't just use it as an excuse to "raise the stakes." Once you cross that line you've passed the "this is just a adventure book about good guys and bad guys" line.

you're a fucking faggot 90% of Spider-Man comics are good to great

>and did so with the finesse of a toddler wielding a sledge hammer.
This is where you people always lose me.

And why is rape more touchy than murder?

Because there aren't any murder victims who might read it.

Who gets to dictate what is 2edgy tho?
>oh rape is 2edgy
>oh murder is 2edgy
>oh them not saving everyone is 2edgy
>oh any form of hostile conflict is 2edgy

The only time the TT have been good.

Nah, Identity crisis is just shit.

?
So?
That's like saying "don't show dismemberment because amputees might be reading".

You strike me as a slippery slope-type SJW.

>IC has very good character work.
No it didn't

I disagree, and I think you need to read it again/and or rethink your opinion. It's a good book and you'd be happier if you allowed yourself to like more good things.

see

Because the concept of killing someone who is against you is a very primal concept, and ironically one that can easily be "kiddified." The concept that you just end someone is a very simple way of resolving a conflict; if you're not someone who has personally witnessed murder, then it's easy to feel distant from it.

Rape on the other hand is very different. it is inherently personal and psychological. Our psyches are extremely connected to our sexuality, and what rape often does is take away our ability to control that aspect of ourselves. It's an experience that can be imagined and we can ponder how it would affect us. No one can really imagine how murder would affect them for obvious reasons.

The emotional damage inflicted is what makes it worse.
Everyone dies. That's even true for some comic characters.
Not everyone has something so horrible happen to them that they can no longer be the same person they were before that.
It's like saying torture isn't as bad as being shot dead. I assure you, torture is worse. You will eventually die either way but one way is painless.

>it's a good book
But it isn't. It's a nonsensical murder mystery written by a writer who knew nothing of the characters or the setting.

Okay, now explain why it was used wrong in the story.

>who knew nothing of the characters
You haven't read it.
That's the only explanation.

>rethink your opinion
Fine.
Oh look at that Identity crisis is still a terrible book.

For some reason I don't think you actually did any thinking.

This is a bad comparison but edge is like hentai/porn/fetishes. You know edge when you see it and only like certain types of it.

>Do you guys get "adults don't need edge" and "childish cartoons are MORE adult than edge" mixed up in your minds?
I just prefer my edge in shit that's actually suited to it by genre, e.g. horror movies and crime dramas, and horror or crime-derived comics... but not in Teen Titans, and certainly not directed at characters from the goofiest, campiest, wholesomest, Silver Age-iest of cartoons.

Well I did more thinking than Meltzer did when he wrote Identity crisis.

>of cartoons.
This is your problem. You keep looking at things through the lens of cartoons. The comics are not the cartoons and are not trying to be. Cartoons adapt the comics, not the other way around.

Hmm. I doubt the truth of that statement, if we're being candid here.

>Not in teen titans
Why not? The comics weren't directed at kids.

As long as we're neing candid here, I got something I need to get off my chest.
>Identity crisis is objectively shit

>you guys obsess over how edgy that is
This is true. The rape and the Deathstroke fight scene is almost all of what some people care about when both scenes put together are only 12 pages. And the hate comes in such a triggered way, makes you really think when some people are this obsessed with rape.

Identity Crisis really isn't a good comic though. Not at all.

>Okay, now explain why it was used wrong in the story.
Because it was a mature subject handled in an extremely immature way. It was essentially an "OH SHIT THINGS ARE SERIOUS NOW" moment. All for a "payoff" that doesn't really even amount to anything.

You've posted like a dozen times basically saying "it's really good and anyone who disagrees just doesn't get it" yet the only argument you've made is vague platitudes like "the characters are really good"

>objectively
Source?

>Identity Crisis really isn't a good comic though. Not at all.
I disagree.

>in an extremely immature way
explain pls

>vague platitudes
????
No, have told you that he gets inside the character's heads very well. Good character voice.
That's not vague at all.

You can't disagree with facts, my friend.

>with facts
I'm asking you- what facts?

Isn't that the one Weissman said was more like Young Justice the comic than Young Justice the show ended up being?

Not him, but surely there was a way of reinventing/paying homage Wendy, Marvin and Rex that wasn't "Rex turns into a Hell hound and kills Marvin"

>No, have told you that he gets inside the character's heads very well. Good character voice.
>That's not vague at all.

It's Dr.Light, a C-list Supervillain known to be absolutely inept, being reveled as a serial rapist.
>he wore the stupid fin head costune throughout the whole thing.
>the whole aftermath, with ralph trying to console sue, with everybody in costume.

Not that guy, but come the fuck off of it man.

Raven's arc is legitimately executed better in the cartoon, unless you're going to insist that having a huge Trigon expodump/arc right in the first fuckin' issues and following that by doing one every couple years or so was a good idea.

And so what if they didn't confirm Terra fucked Slade in this version, or left out such fan favorites as Donna Troy or Terry Long? That shit was dead weight. All that family shit was holding Slade back, stripping him down from everything, his past, his face, even his tryhard codename, and relying solely on the strength of the design and Perlman's performance was WAY more effective than Merc "Deadeye" McCoolguy and Murdery Soap Opera.

>but surely there was a way of reinventing/paying homage Wendy, Marvin and Rex that wasn't "Rex turns into a Hell hound and kills Marvin"
Again with the "edge is unilaterally inferior to non edge" stuff. WE'VE HAD happy Wendy, Marvin and Rex.
Edge was a change of pace.

That the plot made no sense and that everyone was out of character.

How can I mael this any more clear?
The colored text sqaures with each character's thoughts sound more like fully realized people and less like cardboard cutouts than in other comments.

If you think that's vague then I just can't help you.

Are you sure you're not mixing up "Drama" with "Edge"?

Edge is not the only alternative to campy/happy silver age, user. Edge is the idiot 14 year old's idea of mature writing and is almost always a bad thing.

>everyone was out of character.
>everyone
You have not read it.

>Raven's arc is legitimately executed better in the cartoon,
No it wasn't.
>Slade's family and military background is dead weight
Priest says hi

>Edge is not the only alternative to campy/happy silver age, user.
I didn't say that. But when given the choice between the two, Sup Forums always runs away from edge.
Nothing wrong with channelling your inner 14 year old.
Hell, that's channelling an older person than most cartoonfags channel.

I mean, this is material meant for kids. Very, very few writers can pull off genuine drama in tights successfully. Even at the pinnacle of the form, there where as many awful, overwrought books with purple prose and half-baked plots book-ended by Tennyson quotes as there were genuine classics.

How old are you? The fact that you seem unable to justify your argument in any way other than tautologically restating the initial statement makes me think that you can't be out of high school. Either that or you shouldn't have left high school.

When I say be less vague I mean actually back up your argument.

I did and while I maybe exaggerating when I say everyone but what's clear to me is that Meltzer was some casual who knew nothing of these characters or the stories they've been in.

>Okay, now explain why it was used wrong in the story.
It ends up being a completely irrelevant side plot, and didn't add anything to the characters.

>>Raven's arc is legitimately executed better in the cartoon,
>No it wasn't.
Great counterargument. How is slowly building up to the reveal, having her confess to her friends, then going all-out for a single story that ends that arc conclusively, inferior to having her be Trigon's demonseed rape-baby-hellgate again and again and again, up to and including attacking Starfire and Dick's wedding to set up a lame cop-out?

Even the few fans of TT comics I know will admit that the repetitive Raven arcs are shit.