What went wrong?

Rebirth was supposed to be about making good books, but it's been around a year since the launch, and all we've ended up with is a line of middle of the road books.

Sounds like you're a fag.

Are you retarded? Rebirth is fantastic.

Fan base turned to shit

All the experimental, cool stuff from DC YOU is over at YA and classic cartoons.

Maybe you just have low standards. I bet you post on plebbit and cbr too.

Bob Harras is still Editor in Chief. That sort of puts a hard limit on how good your line can really be.

Rebirth didn't really solve any of the deeper problems DC has. It just undid New52's more unpopular blunders.

>the deeper problems DC has
Such as?

It's just cape comics have gone downhill lately. Mediocre writers like Johns and Bendis have too much influence on the genre and too much hold on their companies. Johns is also giving work to his old mediocre friends like Rucka, Waid and Dixon in stead of bringing someone fresh. Why doesn't Sebela have a series of his own?

it's still too sjw

>duke being set up to be the next batman
>green lanterns are muslim and latino, while the whites are stuck on venditti containment
>nightwing is romani, and is knocking up a tumblr girl
>detective comics had a white male robin get killed off, batman is the most incompetent character in the book
>chinese superman
>gay aqualad
>green arrow "mansplains" too much
>rainbow colored justice league of america team
>wonder woman not being superman or batman's girlfriend

>wonder woman not being superman or batman's girlfriend

Of all the shitty complaints to make, this is the shittiest

It's bait senpai

>Such as?
Wanting to reap without sowing. A near-religious belief that if they arrange their universe JUST RIGHT all of the readers will flock to them. The problem isn't the stories, it's the universe!

>A near-religious belief that if they arrange their universe JUST RIGHT all of the readers will flock to them.
So far they're not wrong.

Jurgens is a shit writer
Tomasi is pretty boring
King has not been killing it
Tyrions writing the same arc over and over
Superwoman is a mess
Orlando isn't good at dialogue and Supergirl was better in the Nw 52
all the Batgirl books are bad
Rucka is a faggot who's cool being complacent in killing Steph but has to be overprotective of his waifus
Booth drawing Wally
Venditti still writing GL
JLA terrible
Hitch's JL is questionable at best

the only good is New Super-Man, Red Hood, Green Arrow, Green Lanterns and Deathstroke

Limited access to talented new writers.
Incompetent and stifling editors on major lines (particularly Superman and Wonder Woman).
Also what said.

How is the editorial bad on Superman? WW is suffering from double shipping and treating every other issue as its own monthly but Superman has neen pretty solid.

But user RHATO is a Bat book.

>Limited access to talented new writers.
Probably because most new writers aren't talented. Just look at Marvel.

yeah, the only good one

>The problem isn't the stories
I don't know or care about the universe, but they haven't been doing good in the stories department.

>Incompetent and stifling editors on Wonder Woman
WW is Rucka's mistake alone. He's been given free reign to do anything, even pick variant covers for the book, but all he can do is write shitty fanfic. Writers who have already completed a run on a character should never be brought back.

Because Marvel hires colorists, journalists and YA fiction writers. whatever happened to DC's talent search writers?

Look, I like Superman right now, but it's pretty obvious that they still have no actual idea what to do with him. They're just hanging around, using the return to old status quo as a substitute for direction and praying someone's gonna come in and figure it out by the time that runs out of steam.

Plus Superwoman is a mess, and Supergirl from what I hear isn't much better.

Debatable. I really enjoy All Star Batman. Everything is readable to decent for the most part, although there has definitely been some weak shit. The only one that is outright trash is Batgirl. All that said, Id agree that RHATO is the only must read of the lot.

DC doesnt need to cultivate new talent, they just wait until Marvel pisses someone off and hires them

Well, yes. But also because, with Vertigo gone, there's very little incentive for actually talented writers to come to DC.

Superman is just all right at it's best. Tomasi is best while writing John, but doesn't know what to do with Superman. Multiplicity and Reborn were thrash.

>Look, I like Superman right now, but it's pretty obvious that they still have no actual idea what to do with him.

I disagree. Although I agree that reboot his origin is kind of a tired concept they've done well enough so far that I am willing to give then leeway. Besides the central aspect of his character so far has been fatherhood and there is a lot left to explore there.

Most "actually talented" new writers don't want to work on any big company. They'd rather do their own indie work. Any new writer that ends up in the big two usually is just awful to decent and is just bilding reputation to fuckoff somewhere else.

>Multiplicity and Reborn were thrash.

Nigga what? In what way?

>WW is Rucka's mistake alone. He's been given free reign to do anything, even pick variant covers for the book, but all he can do is write shitty fanfic. Writers who have already completed a run on a character should never be brought back.
The buck doesn't stop with Rucka. He's given free reign because his editors have no idea how to do their jobs, and haven't had one probably since his first run, maybe even farther down.

That's just modern Image writers, most of whom are not really talented anyway. Brits were dedicated in their work for the big two, or whoever they worked for. It's been all downhill since the British Invasion ended.

Shit creative teams and a desire to recycle plots and even creators on the same damn characters.

That's what I said. Vertigo compensated for that by letting good writers do their own semi-indie thing in exchange for playing in DC's sandbox for a while. And now that's gone.

Sebela is trash.

Holy christ you are as triggered as triggered can be.

He was given free reign to bring him back. He wouldn't have come if he was going to be interrupted by editors.

I think Wonder Woman's really starting to pick up steam. A lot o the pieces are finally starting to click into place. It just feels slow as fuck because you actually have to wait a month between issues. If you read it all in one chunk it's pretty good. Not great and certainly shit compared to Rucka's previous run but entertaining enough.

So basically Americans are lazy and untalented, compared to Europeans?

Well that is generally true. All of your talented people die young from gun and shitty healthcare-related incidents. And racism.

I don't agree. New 52 sucked more dick then you do, OP. Rebirth has been pretty good so far.and it's just getting warmed up. Haters like you can't even wait till it's over to start talking crap. I bet you walk around angry at everything in life. That's sad.

If you're a new writer with not much experience you're not gonna make it big at Image. Image has become an IP farm for the likes of Remender or Lemire ), and they made their names known to a wide public through the big two.
The guy that did Red Thorn was pretty good, they couldn't given him a title/mini for Rebirth. Or look at Way, he brought in Castellucci and Rivera, none of whom are big names, hell, Vastellucci actually has quite the background in comics too. Then there's people like Nate Powell that said he constantly pitches to the big two. And Brendan McCarthy pitched a Creeper mini and a Dr. Fate series. And I've mentioned people that are known in the industry, there's always unknoesn that could be really good if given the chance(a mini). It's time to face the music, Rebirth is just creatively bankrupt by choice.

>you actually have to wait a month between issues
How is this a problem for anyone that regularly reads comics? The dual storyline gimmick is actually a good idea. The problem is Cucka's writing.

you know what's sad? being 32 and still not knowing how to properly use than and then.

Don't be silly, it's a Trinity book.

Yup but arnt Europeans degenerate racist cavemen compared to the middle East.
Wait before to Long there be part of it.

The success of superhero movies has made superhero ip valuable to companies like Disney and Warner Bros. That simple fact means that decisions that used to be made by creative people in conjunction with editors are now replaced by corporate synergy.

Basically, middle of the road is what we're going to get until the superhero bubble bursts.

There's a risk that the bubble bursting will destroy cape comics but we won't know until we get there. If that happens there will still be indie comics and the extraordinarily profitable YA stuff that mainstream book publishers do.

As far as comics are concerned, yes

Powell told me he's pitched like a dozen series to the Big 2 and Vertigo but they won't let him to a write/draw deal but that might change after all the acclaim and press he's gotten for March

it's almost like DC is shit at literally everything and "middle of the road" is the best they can do

But DC is making better books now than Marvel in the last 10 years

the thing that blows my mind with so many talented indie creators out there just who would do anything for an opportunity and while these mainstream big writers who have been boring for over a decade continue to get like 4 books eachs and shape the line without giving half effort

Rebirth has been great so far and the only risk they face right now is Marvel crashing the industry with no survivors again

Just read Valiant for quality books. After reading through the 2012 X-O Manowar, its blatant how lazy the writing in the big 2 are

>Marvel crashing the industry with no survivors again

DC survived 1996 because it's owned by WB tb.h

Doubt it. His stuff got a lot of acclaim in general. And awards =/= sales.

Valiant is garbage and ever since they got exposed for viral marketing I can't help but laugh when I see them mentioned.

>Valiant is garbage and ever since they got exposed for viral marketing
Please elaborate

>What went wrong?
The competition is so weak they don't have the incentive to do better than this

That's not even a comprehensible sentence.

Speaking as a Superfag, I've been pretty happy with Superman post-rebirth and Action Comics has been alright. Once they got over that shit with Doomsday for six straight issues, that is. I'm not struck on Jurgens as a writer in general though.

Even Vertigo's gone downhill after before Shelly Bond's release. There were some great anthologies with some talented people. That's how they found King.

Anthologies go unnoticed. They still had SFX but nobody bought it or even read it. It's gone downhill because they don't have a model structure and even when they get good stuff they don't sell and they end up canceled(the recent crop is a good example. Also, Justin Jordan is garbage and letting him to that mini no other publisher wanted to buy was dumb.

The last batch was good with a lot of fresh writers, but I think bond got fired in the middle of it. Vertigo is now Icon tier, as in they offer Vertigo books to their own writers rather than a place where new talented people can get a break. Image is meant for big names and sci fi/fantasy exclusive. We'll no longer get scalped, American vampire, sheriff or even unfollow from Vertigo.

The thing is Rebirth is a very conservative move. They only really put forward writers who were on successful books already aside from ones like the Batgirl containment books.

I hope as we go forward some of the folks that were lost from those DCYou books or from Vertigo titles get brought back to do more. Poor Genevieve Valentine is stuck on a Xena book nobody's reading.

>sheriff or even unfollow
Those came post Bond. And Red Thorn also had new comers. Art Ops had Shaun Simon who's fairly new and good friends with Way. The problem comes from the lack of structure in the line and that they'll launch a bunch if stuff at once, cancel them one by one, go 4-6 months with 3-4 titles in the whole line up and then repeat. For a new writer Vertigo is still better because they pay you by the page, the problem is that new writers don't wanna tell minis and build off their names and just want to go straight into 50+ issue runs but since Vertigo is in a weird spot(too popular for the hipsters, too hipster for the regular cape exclusives) that never happens. Also, as mentioned earlier talent scouting is a mess. Those anthologies were interesting but very few of the creators in them went on to do minins/ongoings at Vertigo or DC.

They put Orlando on Supergirl and JLA and he's lousy.

He was already popular because of Midnighter.

They still have King and Williams from DCYou but they're only on one book each... And Williams seriously got the short end of the stick with Synergy Squad and the fact that his editor is incompetent and hasn't put a consistent artist on it that can keep a schedule. Then again, the art side of Rebirth is a mess, they're Putting Rossmo and Bagenda or those crossover titles while Deathstroke, the one truly great Rebirth title, has to suffer through painfully bland crap art.

Midnighter sold sub-10k sales.

Hardly. His Midnighter and Apollo sold like 4k

The writers. Most of them aren't doing anything interesting and actually making a bigger mess.

N52 suffered from bad editors and Rebirth is suffering from medicore writers.

Those came out around DCYou, and Bond got fired just last year. So Bond was still the executive editor of Vertigo then.

>conservative
That's a nice way of looking at it...
They put Jurgens on Superman
Conway on Firestorm
Barr on Katana
Dixon on Bane
Wein on Swamp Thing
...
Johns is just allergic to the idea of getting fresh new voice on characters that desperately need it.

Wasn't it a few months before? Either way her idea at Black Crown if pairing up a veteran creator with a new comer is great. Kid Lobotomy looks fantastic.

Freaking this. I really like Tomasi's Jon, but his Superman as mediocre as heck.

Holy shit, this place really is infested with Marvel shills. I thought it was just a meme!

Lobdell and Humphries are worse writers than any of the ones you listed as being bad.

I thought Tim was still alive. Man I bet you must be pissed that they re-introduced Cassandra too, you know the half-Asian that carried a Batgirl book for years and was a better martial artist than the goddamn Batman.

Midnighter was one of the few "successes" from DCYou, I mean, in that it received good word of mouth. Same with King.

DCYou was meant to be a critical darling that pushed trade sales and Midnighter and Omega Men were basically the closest they got to that.

Yes but with sales the way they were it's hard to blame them. It was a desperate measure but it paid off, in the short term so far.

And they're both exclusives, aren't they?

>suddenly I'm on bizarro Sup Forums

ME NO LIKE WELL WRITTEN COMICS
ME LIKE EVENTS AND RELAUNCHES AND BADLY WRITTEN DIVERSE CHARACTERS
ME THINK INHUMANS ARE BETTER THAN XMEN

Everyone here is from Sup Forums and Sup Forums and their exposure to comics is from the MCU and Arkham games, what did you expect?

I agree with this dude.

I was really excited for Rebirth and have read most of their books, but only few now worth the read. I have to admit that I'm really disappointed.

>Midnighter and Omega Men
The trades sold well initially but they quietly went down and down each month. Didio likes his niche titles so he asked Orlando to do a follow up, not because he expected amazing sales, but he expected the good for of mouth and trade sales to make this sequel sell... I don't know, maybe 12-15k. He was wrong.

>sjw want all minorities, all the time
>anti-sjw want no minorities, ever

It's like poetry, it rhymes

Humphries is, I don't think Lobdell is.

>in the short term
That's the problem. And really, the only one that paid off is Jurgens, the others come and went. What DC should've done is try to revamp or update these charterers, put them in the hands of a hungry new blood so they can have the definitive run on them... well, not Swamp Thing, but the others are small name characters that don't have that one run that people are going to be talking about 20 years from now. Also, what Jurgens is doing in Action Comics is some of the hackiest shit ever. All the worst aspects of 90s cape comics.

This this this this this this.

Only Marvel is really pushing the envelope in comics nowadays.

Lobdell is writing a better book than all the writers he mentioned and Humphries actually made me care about his characters.

As far as I'm concerned, they both proved themselves. I judge the writing, not the repetition.

*reputation

You bought into their false optimistic shite

lmao

comic fans, never change.

>What went wrong?
You became a contrarian or a Marvel intern and everything went downhill

>Comics, movies, TV shows, soon video games

Is there a better time to be a marvel fan?

>revamp or update these charterers
Has this ever worked in the past two decades?

JSA, Manhunter, Dial H, Omega Men, Seven Soldiers, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Jonah Hex... Off the top off my head.

And how many of those things actually stuck?

They are titles people still talk about and recommend.

In other words, they were as much short term successes as Rebirth suposedly is.

New Super-Man, Deathstroke, Shade and Flintstones are great and that's what I'm reading.

No, because they lasted for more than 6 months. And Rebirth is just a sales success. It's still selling Batman, Justice League, Superman, Wonder Woman etc to the public. And like I said, we're talking about them several years, a decade AFTER they've ended.

Either way, you're kinda missing the whole point of the discussion. make comics worth reading, with fresh new ideas instead putting the same damn creators on the same damn characters.