Finn sacrifice different from Holdo sacrifice

Help me out, as I just don't understand. The movie tries to teach Poe a lesson with Holdo's sacrifice...her sacrifice somehow has meaning because she's saving the few ships left after her disastrous plan is followed.
But then Finn is going to do the same thing by flying into the mouth of the battering ram thing...and he's knocked out of the way by Cho Chang. The explanation by her is 'you don't win by destroying the things you hate, you win by saving the things you love' or some shit like that.

Why does this not apply to Holdo? How come no one stopped her to say, 'you don't win by destroying the things you hate...' etc etc. Can anyone explain this to me?

It should apply to both...and I can't think of a reason why the two situations are any different from each other....so what the fuck?

Even the writers don't know what they are doing. Don't overthink it user.

>tumbleriana sacrifices herself to save resistance
>Finn about to sacrifce himself to save the resistance
>"prease tyrone don-tah die! If you kirr your enemehs dey win"
>luke sacrifices himself to save the resistance

how did this get past the focus group?

It's called womansplaining, user, where right and wrong are concepts that change dependent upon the genitalia of the person making the decision.

I was waiting for him to say something like:
>Bitch I was trying to save the resistance and now you doomed us all.
But it never happened.
Prequel-tier dialogue.

It makes no fucking sense. You could argue that Finn's sacrifice wouldn't have worked, but Bai Ling still suggests it could've worked by saying "you don't win by destroying things lmao desu desu." Nevermind the fact that this is Star Wars, not Star Hugs and they destroy some obligatory death machine in every fucking movie.

rose was acting in her own interests because she has a crush on finn

I'm not trying to be a dick (but obviously I end up being one anyways), but hear me out.

I'm trying to give this a fair chance...but the 'lessons' this movie keeps trying to teach the audience (let go of the past vs. teach people through your experience of failure, sacrifice vs. don't sacrifice, etc.) all show both sides which contradict each other within the movie by the same protagonists.

I could accept if it the Dark Side was all about destruction, and the Light side was all about preservation. Or that the Light side was all about sacrifice and the Dark Side all about selfishness...that could make sense (though that's not necessarily how I'd like it to be). At least it would be consistent.

But I'm at a loss...there is no consistency, and I'm not sure if that's a deliberate flaw or message, or if it's the more simple answer of shitty writing. It's easy to say it's the latter...I'm trying to figure out if there's any evidence to suggest the former. Does that make sense?

>I'm trying to give this a fair chance...but the 'lessons' this movie keeps trying to teach the audience (let go of the past vs. teach people through your experience of failure, sacrifice vs. don't sacrifice, etc.) all show both sides which contradict each other within the movie by the same protagonists.
esplain please

Which part...that I'm trying to give this a fair chance, or about the lessons that keep contradicting themselves in the movie?

the contradictions

Well, the first one I mentioned in the original post; that we have sacrifices from two members of the resistance; both are similar in terms of single sacrifice (only one person dies) in order to save many, and both have very high stakes.

Yet the reasoning given to Finn as to why he shouldn't sacrifice himself seems out of place when we just saw Holdo sacrifice herself. Shouldn't she be beholden to the same philosophy?

Another one which doesn't make sense is the intention to destroy the Jedi books. On the one hand, he's trying to destroy a very specific kind of knowledge, one that is already niche and valuable...and yet that doesn't at all line up with his actions in terms of responding to nostalgia (the dice, Leia's message from R2); in fact, he should have walked into the Millenium Falcon, looked around thinking 'meh', and exited without a second thought. Like his old lightsaber, he should have simply cast it aside. It's astoundingly difficult to believe that something like his old lightsaber, that he first learned with and used against Vader for the first time, is so valueless to him....unless his nostalgia emotion is utterly broken and destroyed as well. How is it triggered by R2 and Leia, and not by his most personal of weapons?

So either he believes that things from the past are valuable, worth protecting and continuing on and fostering to grow, or they're not. And then, now that I'm typing this out, I just realized...Yoda fucking lied to him again. After Yoda destroys the library, Luke mentioned the books, which Yoda says cryptically, 'there's nothing in there that Rey doesn't already have', which really means that she's got the books but Luke doesn't know this. What the fuck?

if they switched the asian female characters around so the fat one died i think i would like this movie

it's just womanpocrisy in action

womanpocrisy is when a woman is celebrated for doing the exact same thing that a man was criticised for doing

The dialogue was really bad in this scene. He wouldn't say why would you do that, he would say wtf are you thinking you just got everyone killed.

TRAVART

They'd like people to think their film is deep so they throw contradictory fortune cookie wisdom in but really they've nothing to say. Only idiots will think there's a real message to it, look at all the tumblrinas parroting Rose.

man I would have legitimately thought Finn was good character if he died in that scene, it would have been a real redemption arc. goddamn any moment of weight in this film was undone by a quip, or general movie dickery fuck Im mad

worst is that 1 Luke is more worth than 25 resistance-janitors

>why dont people different from me act like I act

how does he drag jar jar chink's body all the way back to base without getting shot at?

It's foreshadowing the plot in episode IX. Within the movie, the characters make poor decisions (except for Rey), so it's natural for them to doubt each other's actions. The movie also has a theme of "balance," so sometimes it's the soldiers duty to sacrifice themselves to gain an advantage, and sometimes they need to recognize that a small toll on the enemy might as well be no toll at all. They would lose a siege, with no chance of reinforcements.

>I could accept if it the Dark Side was all about destruction, and the Light side was all about preservation. Or that the Light side was all about sacrifice and the Dark Side all about selfishness...that could make sense (though that's not necessarily how I'd like it to be). At least it would be consistent.

This is the way it was in the old books.

The whole deal with 8 is that the old people that dislike logic and consistancy need to be bullied out. That is why Luke disappeared at the end. Force projections can't be killed and you can't kill somebody by slicing his projection. Luke willingly gave up his life because he was not necessary anymore.

Aside from the 'foreshadowing' statement, the idea of balance is not one I had thought about at all, and I think it's a great idea if it's what they were going for. Sometimes it's important to sacrifice, sometimes not. I have to think about that...I have no idea if you meant it as a joke or not, but it's legit interesting. Thanks.

Wait a second...'the old people that dislike logic and consistency...' I thought the older Jedi are all about logic and consistency, and that's why there's an argument to be made that the Jedi stagnated and eventually lost their power....

Luke is the one who recognized the truth of the Jedi arrogance "To say with the jedi dies the good is arrogance". He knows that the forces will which the Jedi want to guard and impose on the galaxy, is not worth it. The galaxy was in balance and the forces will manipulated him into the spaghetti spilling tier nonsense that happened in Kyles bedroom.
Luke rejects the Jedi way and cut himself off from it because the force creates conflict in the name of balancing itself.

And Rey does not hear him out at all, she does not take any wisdom from him, she only takes the old Jedi books, beats him up and leaves while Yoda is enough of a bitchboy to help her and drive Luke to suicide.

The movie is retarded, that's the explanation

The let go of the past bit could've been fucking great if rei wasn't such a tard. Can you imagine how cool the story would be for the next few movies if they used the order to establish peace? You killed the evil guy, restored balance. Goal accomplished. Then she freaks out and kylo stops being a conflicted villain all of a sudden and turns back into the bad guy
Fuck this movie

anyone else notice how after the Rey/Kylo royal guard fight, she supposedly takes snoke's ship, but shows up on the salt planet in the falcon?

Can any of you starfags explain to me why Luke died? Did he even die? He sat on a rock, did some weird nu-wars force projection move and then when the ruse was done, he fell off the rock. Looked pained, crawled back up, sat down on the rock again, seemed fine, looked at the sunset, and then vanished?

What the fuck happened? Am I the only one who thinks that sequence was impossible to follow? Did he die or not what was that?

They don't test screen Star Wars to prevent leaks.

He entered the force. I know everyone expected him to go in a big battle with splosions and whatnot, but from the perspective of force mysticism, this is really the ideal way to go.

Yeah, I noticed that too, but I assumed she flew back and met up with Chewey at some point...I can't remember though. Doesn't she say to him before going in the escape pod to 'meet her at x'...I can't remember what X is....

He's too powerful. Luke can solve any major problem in Episode 9 with just a move of his dick.
They need to get rid of him.
Rey new toy/hero.

He is the only hope we have for a final showdown in the movie so he uses the knowledge of „Dark Empire“ and „Legacy of the Force“ to create a Similfuturus and fight against Kylo Ren. I am unsure who Kylo Ren is in all this or what his goals are. Does he only want to burn it all down and declare himself and the First Order superior? Because he controls the money (now that Snoke is dead) and wants profits? Because he got seduced by Rey who he thought and still thinks he has a bond with because of their shared interests in Star Wars when Reys motivation (her instinct of belonging to a group in times of adults permanently regressing into childlike consuming states and brainwashing) are completely incompatible with him?
Whatever the reason, Kylo Ren does not actually kill Luke as Luke dies long after the fight. Killing a Force Doppelgänger would not affect the real person. Luke willingly removes himself from the story because he recognizes at that moment that Star Wars has ended, just as we the audience recognize it by the imagery.
And now that Disney has unchallenged, complete control over the Star Wars universe it immediately introduces a new force user out of nowhere. Completely unwarranted by everybody, a little boy. Just like Disneys first (by the mainstream recognized) installment: Star Wars: Rebels’ Ezra „Space Aladdin“ Bridger.

The writers have no idea what they are even doing. The whole Finn subplot was absolutely meaningless. It goes on to imply that the trie villains of the universe are leisurely rich people, so does that mean they are going to be taking down the rich as the baddies in the next movie?
The movie doesn't even set up any goals for the series. What the fuck is even going to happen next? There is nothing set up at all.

Yes, that was the strangest 'side adventure' I could ever think of. The only thing it does in the mechanics of the story is get them eventually captured and betrayed by Del Torro's character...but am I to expect Del Torro was either waiting in the cell the whole damn time for rebel skum to be thrown in there...or that he was placed in the cell after Finn and Cho Chang were captured but before they were thrown in the cell? I don't understand...because how did anyone know the motives of Finn and Chochang before they started talking to each other in the cell...unless there's a secret door that Del Torro slid through to finally appear on the bench..
I don't get it...

For the first time in thousands of years, no one is kidnapping or genociding the force sensitives. It is implied that the sister used the force to get the bomb release, and it makes sense that there are minor force users with cantrips across the galaxy.

Del Toro is called DJ as in Don't Join. He wasn't a secret agent for the First Order, he just willingly gave up the entire plan when he was caught because the First Order would let him go and give him money. He is a simple opportunist with no honor.

Del Toro was also in the prison because according to the Visual Guide "it's the only place where he is not bothered by the police and can get a good nights sleep".

I don't think it makes any sense at all. Without training (from a young age for fullest potential), the furthest any normal forse-sensitive should get is really good instincts/reflexes/senses.

Being able to self-teach and manifest high level force powers completely invalidates the Jedi. Disney is making the stupid mistake of turning force usage into mutant x-men powers.

Oh god...really? That sounds like shit.
I know he wasn't a secret agent..he worked for the weapons people, or at least that's what is implied heavily. But I still don't get it...he's just...catching a nap? That's the best they can do? Wtf is this shit?

I wonder if the guy in the white suit and flower lapel was even a real codebreaker

I'm sure we'll find out in the next movie!!

At this point you have to be happy with the little things...they used modded B-wings at the end, yay!

also I like how many innocent people were probably trampled to death after those shenanigans
>well now it was worth it
I bet the casino tranqed those horse things and brought them back as soon as jjar jar chinks and finn left

He is a random street thug, it makes sense for him to just be in a prison at some point. And the Visual Guides always were joke books.

He was just there and then Finn and Rose got thrown in there and he saw it as his chance to pull a big one and then the First Order offered more than he could get from the Resistance.

According to the Visual Guide he is. He put something on the Holonet that if decrypted contains his real name. He said anybody is free to take the name Master Codebreaker from him if they decrypt it and publish his name.
Also his square-haired waifu doesn't love him.

I guess you like to kiss your woman after seeing that your home's door is blown the fuck open because that is the perfect opportunity to kiss someone when you are royally screwed to protect the people in that home.

>Why does this not apply to Holdo?
Because her initial plan wasn't to do that light speed ram but to simply distract the First order long enough for the crew to escape. Shitty explanation but that's all I got.

Maz shows us that basic training techniques have become folk wisdom at this point. Why shouldn't village elders teach the youth to self reflect, and accidentally give the sensitive ones very minor connection to the force?

I understand that...but Finn's original plan was to fly with all the other small ships to attack the walkers (I'm guessing here, but that seems to be the whole point). But that doesn't work, so he chooses to sacrifice himself. Holdo does the same thing; when she sees that her original plan doesn't work, she makes the decision to do the light speed sacrifice; it becomes the same reasoning Finn used. That nothing else will work, so I've got to do something. We're still stuck where we began, regardless of the original plan.