ONE MORE DAY

Objectively speaking, was there anything wrong with shaking up the mythos?

Stan Lee himself approved.

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>Radioactive Spider Semen

Personally it wasn't shaking up the breaking up thing that bothered me. It was the whole Peter getting out of his responsibilities without any consequences that bothered me.

It wasn't shaking up the mythos it was a return to status quo, the shake up came later, and frankly could've been done better without the "i sold my marriage to stan so my aunt could live"

Like what the fuck she's 80

Shaking up the mythos? No. Shaking up the mythos in this specific way? Yeah.

Peter was growing as a character and was moving forward but we can't have that. Can't even have a divorce. Gotta make a deal with the devil.

Remember, Satan won. He got no comeuppance.

>Gotta make a deal with the devil.
The implication in story is that they would get back together naturally. On its own, and if you ignore the continuity that follows, OMD is pretty much a huge testament to how important the marriage was. It's kind of neat when you take it as a fuck you from JMS to quesada/marvel.

Them breaking up the marriage and "shaking up the mythos" is an entirely different question as opposed to how it was actually done.

Peter Parker. The guy who's entire history/motivations for being a hero is
>with great power comes great responsibility
and that you learn from the past and you move on and try to be better made a fucking deal with the LITERAL FUCKING DEVIL to save his old Aunt and skirt the natural order.

It was a complete butchering of the character and everything he stood for.

Yeah, but a big part of his character is how much he royally fucks up everything.
Look at the bullshit his best clone just pulled.
Peter really was the wrong person to get superpowers, that's what that Uncle Ben line has always implied: a true hero doesn't need to be reminded that you should be responsible.
And besides, he never really loved M.J., not like he loved Gwen.

>i sold my marriage to stan

So that's why he's still married in the newspaper comic.

>not like he loved Gwen.

She was a great fuck. Too bad she never gave Peter the chance.

yes it is when it's done by a manchild with a grudge on his wife for divorcing him.

Would Batman make a deal with the devil to keep his parents dead?

Are you refer to Peter or Quesada?

It's made all the worse that SOMEHOW no other method could have saved his aunt. Both Reed Richards, smartest guy on the planet, and Dr. Strange, Sorcerer Supreme said they couldn't save her. That's contrivance.

But OMD was the opposite of a shake up. It was a de-shake up. Regressing Peter back to his late ESU days.

it was contrived, it was done basically out of spite, and despite what Slott and Quesadilla and the yes-men they have at Marvel say, no one was particularly happy about it

No. It didn't make sense in universe or out universe and it halved sales for ASM. It was a huge blow to the franchise to solve a problem that only editorial had.

Friendly reminder that the most all knowing being ok the universe JUST gave Peter a pep talk and he turns around does this.

You know what pisses me the fuck off about Spider-Man comics to this day? Aunt May still doesn't know Peter's identity. Even though JMS clearly demonstrated how the character could still be damn entertaining and interesting if writers would just try a little.

That's why that one scene in Spider-Men was so weird to me. He moved on with his life, but he cried like a bitch when he saw Ultimate Gwen. Like, for fucks sake, dude.

>first love dies
>it's your fault
that's not really a trauma that ever goes away completely

She's not a character at all, thanks to Slott. She's a cardboard cutout with no real personality.
Compare it to Paul Jenkins or, as you said, JMS who wrote her as a believable human being.

He cried like he was still in love with her, which is kinda insulting.

>Yeah, but a big part of his character is how much he royally fucks up everything.

No, a big part of his character is he screws up but overcomes most of it. People stupidly fixate only on the "royally fucks up everything" part and end up with subpar stories.

Peter didn't get divorced so I assume that user is talking about Quesada, though I've never heard of him having a divorce.

I just want Happy JMS Peter to come back. Yeah, I know he separated from MJ at the time, but he dealt with it pretty well.

"Good news Aunt May, we can save your life but you might have to spend a little time as a magic cyborg clone."
...
"On the other hand, you're as old as dirt and you were just shot with a rifle round, magic cyborg clone might not even do the job."

Peter just has major persecution complex. Him crying over Gwen is just him constantly feeling guilty about it. And it's really stupid to say Peter never loved MJ when he himself refused the offer from Mephisto to begin with. Let alone the latter talking about how pure their love is. Either way, I don't know why you are justifying this godawful story. There were much better ways to unmarry them that Marvel didn't take.

No, but you don't have to do it in such a shitcunt way.

Nothing wrong with a reboot every now and then - but you DON'T BLOODY DO IT IN THE MIDDLE OF A STORY!
Had Joe Q. done it after the various plots were done with, such as Peter being a criminal, the Kingpin being humiliated (what would he do later?), his involvement in the Skrull invasion and general interaction with his superfriends.
Would May die? Would he then kill Kingpin as promised? How long could he and MJ live on the run? So many plotlines dangling.
And the way it was done was beyond the pale. neither Peter nor MJ would ever make a deal with the devil, they're bloody heroes, and heroes don't do that. Not for personal gain.
"Oh but they did it for Aunt May" I hear you say, no, as it was written it was done for very egoistic reasons "I want May in my life!"
"But she's 126 years old, she's frail and will die soon anyway"
"MUH MAY!"
I Understand why Straczynski was heard swearing loudly in the bullpen during this time, poor guy, he'd built up Peter to be so much more than he was, and had it all dashed aside by Joe Q. who just wanted his childhood back.
Grr...
Also what Said.

You can read it that way but I don't.
Pete's still an experienced superhero, he knows Mephisto is trouble. Of course he didn't jump at the too-good offer.
M.J. wasn't as experienced, and she wanted Peter to have that happy life he wouldn't get if he was responsible for another relative dying, so of course she'd be the one who pushed the deal. Her saying their love was so pure that this devil wanted it gone was how she rationalized that there wasn't some double-dealing happening. After all, she really loves him. She didn't know Pete wanted out of a marriage he knew was endangering M.J. too.

>Objectively speaking, was there anything wrong with shaking up the mythos?

No. It's why they should have let Aunt May die and let Peter become a family man instead of the absolute regressive dogshit we got

I wonder how May would feel if somebody told her he life was bought in a deal with the devil

I'm sure she wold be thrilled

OMD was commissioned by Marvel because they felt they couldn't write as many Spider-man stories if he was married to Mary Jane.

Just read Renew Your Vows. It's now also the best Xmen book. They basically merged with the 90s comics.

You know what was and could've been shaking up the mythos?
Back in Black.

OMD is just regressing shit cause Marvel think that new readers are dumb and won't be able to adapt to storylines taking a new direction and characters developing.

This. The entire purpose of OMD was to bring the Spider-man comics closer to the Spider-man movies, even if that means just deleting over a decade of character history.
Because obviously the fans of the movie would be disappointed to discover that their lovable wallcrawling hero got married to Mary Jane... Cause thats what fans do- they get upset when their favorite superhero manages to carve out some happiness for themselves.

>commissioned by Marvel because they felt they couldn't write as many Spider-man stories
Compare to most current Marvel nowadays, quite the irony...

>Stan Lee himself approved.
Stan Lee never has any opinions of his own. He's still on their bankroll and it's the company he helped build and grow. He's not going to say anything bad about it, one way or another.

Every single time Marvel has some big controversy, every reporter rushes to ask Stan Lee what he thinks. His response?

"Well gee that sure is interesting!"

>Give up what the devil admits to be a rare case of true love to save the life of your ancient dying aunt who probably would have slapped your head right off your neck for even considering dealing with the devil in the first place.

Ah hell, you can have my true love, Satan because well...dear ole Aunt May might live another few years.

Which he then laughed off as a dream in the newspaper comic.

Did it really shake things up though?
Peter went back to being a single sad sack with a secret identity and a billion year old aunt. That's his status quo.

Shaking things up would be to actually let Aunt May die permanently, or have Peter be unmasked permanently and have to deal with that, or have him be married with a kid, which is still a rarity in cape books.

Objectively speaking, OMD was more a conservative return to form than a shake up. If you want to talk shaking up the mythos that's what Superior Spider-man did.

OMD was what caused a power struggle between other writers gaming to become the head ASM writer, and they all fucked up so badly that Slott could easily barge his way through and take charge.

JMS was writing the best Spiderman in the last decades; this undone everything he made during his run only to gave the character a fresh start so a worse writer could write Peter without having to really work on him.

It was so wrong that its damage is enduring to this day.

Also, it was the moment in which Marvel started to alienate every single good writer that made it great during the beginning of the millennium. Losing JMS, Morrison, Millar, and all the other AAA writers is the reason Marvel comics are almost dead. They cannot sustain from two o three mediocre writers and a bag of twitter memes.

>Spider-Man after Sup Forums.png

I don't remember the event too well. Why exactly did Peter need to go to Mephisto for help? Why not someone like Dr Strange or Reed Richards?

>Stan Lee himself approved.
Well, he never had to do anything with the character in the first place; and anything for a check.

Aunt May was shot with a normal bullet and super science and magic couldn't save her. I'm not joking.

The writer who was working on the book; who was down with retconing away the marriage and in the process of working out the ramifications this would have...

QUIT THE FUCKING BOOK because Marvel couldn't be fucked with that. They decided that the FUCKING DEVIL should magic whammy it away.

It is objectively one of the worst comic books ever written.

Tony actually said that he probably could save her, but only if Peter surrendered himself into his custody. so long as he was on the 'enemy' team, Tony had no reason to use his best medical resources at the behest of a wanted criminal
so it characterized Peter as someone who would rather make a deal with the devil than go to jail

OMD happen just to keep the whole Spider-man Brand going if Dan slott wasn't such a bullshitter I would have believe it but he's married in the newspaper.
It just some pure hate for the marriage ever since Marvel failed to undo it during the beginning of the clone saga.

That actually paints Tony in a far worse light.

Civil War turned everyone into an asshole.
That's why Moon Knight telling Cap like it is was so satisfying

Yeah, I almost quit reading after the satan deal issue, but some of the BND stuff was pretty good. It wasn't til Superior Spiderman that I quit again.

First quit was Clone Saga. Came back right before Civil War.

the only mephistoverse SM story I actually like enough to recommend is gauntlet+grim hunt, and even then its more the gauntlet part

IIRC he wouldn't be able to even if Peter turned himself in because tony was the face of the registration. So Jarvis came in as a "relative" and paid for everything. And the doctors couldn't do anything more than make her last days more comfortable.

That was a pretty great arc. I personally also liked Spider-Island and the introduction of Anti-Venom.

I don't dislike spider island but other than anti-venom it didn't contribute enough that I feel it worth recommending

Fever for me.

that's by and large an out-of-continuity thing so I don't consider it part of mephistoverse

I want this as a skin in some Spider-Man game.

I think most people including me hate the way they did it. It's the worst way to retcon something.

agreed. the two "suits" Peter had during fever were dope

they wrote a story where, in this story, every character was telling Peter to move on. his friends, his wife, Aunt May herself, and even God (the big G). and he still does it.

Fast forward 10 years, Slott writes the abortion that is Clone Conspiracy and here we have Peter flat out refusing to revive Uncle Ben, his greatest failure, because that's how great responsibility works.

lol

>tfw you figure out that what Peter gets attached to is his greatest weakness
>bricks

>"i sold my marriage to stan so my aunt could live"
I GOT HIS MARRIAGE! RUN!

>Can't have Peter seem grown up, so he can't be married, or have a job as a teacher

>Turn him into a CEO of a major company and have a younger character follow in his legacy

I mean, sure, you could feasibly have both in your 20's~30's. But you know what else you could have?

You've really twisted OMD to be something positive.

And you're wrong. Sorry. Its fine you interpreted it that way but its not what anybody involved in that story intended.

No. Doing it by having Spider-man literally sell his marriage to the devil to save a woman that was already pushing 80 and should have died a decade prior, THAT was wrong.

There's a way they could have done OMD with the same results that wouldn't have made Peter reprehensible.

The entire story is framed around showing how the marriage is what's most important to Peter. The alternate peters and the child were both there to show that Peter is literally nothing without his marriage.

In the end, yeah, it was bad for spider-man, and the editorial/retcon decision was retarded, but JMS framed the story as a fuck you to that decision. There's too much shit to treat it as something positive for spider-man, I just respect what JMS did.

Yes.
>Spider-man sold his marriage to the devil so his aunt could survive a bullet wound
Repeat that sentence. Say it out loud to yourself so you can hear how dumb it sounds.

>The alternate peters
Wasn't one of the alternate Peters a lonely CEO who only had his money to console him?
Funny how that worked out...

if they made MJ the one dying, it would be an endearing and somewhat noble story for him to sell his love and happiness with her so that she can live, knowing that she won't and can't remember it ever happening.

that's not to say it wouldn't still be a shit story. but it would at least be not as shit because i'd definitely believe in him doing anything possible to save MJ.

what's so unbelievable is that on Slott's last autismo breakdown on this topic, he talked about how EVERY in the Spidey department was called for the creative summit that ended in OMD. and OMD is the best we got.

Marvel's flagship super hero, one of the most popular heroes amongst fans and normies, got treated with such callous disregard. and you wonder why Marvel has gone to shit.

>in one page JMS explored the idea of rich Peter better than Slott has in however many issues of drivel he's put out
Really makes you think...

>if they made MJ the one dying, it would be an endearing and somewhat noble story
This.

More or less, yes. The issues are an extended discussion on why this is a bad idea. JMS himself probably wasn't as critical of it as you're assuming.

That's my main problem with the aftermath: Peter basically became a stupid. Not in the funny way, he was/is literally stupid. It's unnerving.

I recall that Marvel had to bring in Stan Lee to get JMS to even put his NAME on the book after he was made to write it. (Presumably they didn't tell Stan Lee why they brought him out)
I'm not that user but JMS seemed pretty damn unhappy with OMD in general as well as the fact that he couldn't retcon away sins past after editorial made him change the kids from Peter's to Norman's.

in the What-If? where MJ took the bullet and died, Peter didn't fuck around one whit. He found Kingpin and put his fist right through his chest then dared his goons to try and avenge him

Wrong story man

When omd happened i stopped reading asm altogether, but boy i'm glad i then switched to ultimate spiderman, i got to experience it still on it's prime for a while

It seemed like he could bear it so long as he was able to create a new starting point for Peter. "I can't stop this, but at least I can ensure the best case scenario."

And then they told him to fuck off with his new canon and he bailed.

Same here, but I even gave a chance to Slott, but coming from JMS, his writing was unforgivable and had to drop it.

I made a head canon were USM, MK:S and JMS are the main series and everything ends with Peters death in the future.

JMS was cheeky enough and i know it's theory territory but it can be interpreted that after the end of back in black, in an alternate turn of events instead of dealing with mephisto, what happens is the last stand JMS wrote during his run, him running from the police and all, at least It's what i like to believe because back in black was a boiling point and could have been a definitive ending

>Stan Lee himself approved.

Really? Cause his afterword seems like a pretty subtle jab at the direction they chose in spite of what seemed to be company fawning.

>Sometimes readers of a series forget that a series can't continue going down the same road forever

Which in turn is what the writers and editorial forgot in their quest to roll back the clock.

you know what? If Miles would have been THE spiderman like Bendis want, with Peter's blessing and mentoring while he was raising his daughter with MJ, I would be happy. It ould have been a nice closure for Peter's story. But nooo, we can't have nice thing.

>Peter basically became a stupid. Not in the funny way, he was/is literally stupid. It's unnerving.

To me that's not the unnerving part. The unnerving part was watching reviewers claim that it evoked classic Spider-Man. But I went back and read a lot of classic Spider-Man. Peter makes bad mistakes from time to time, but he handled things better back then than he does now. Because they put so much dumb shit in a short amount of time to emphasize that Spider-Man is funny and also goes through Parker Luck, it comes off forced as fuck.

>Gwen
>first love
Read more Dikto.

Also there was this post on CBR that reminded me why I wasn't fond of Waid's Spider-Man most of the time (and why I wasn't surprised at how Champions turned out):

community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?31351-DIY-COMIC-CREATOR-ROUNDTABLE-Spider-marriage-continuity-and-retcons&s=0286a640e49c8f9b0a4b7d9cdf6d94a9&p=904655&viewfull=1#post904655

>there's another good example in ASM #642, the opening to the Origin of the Species BND finale. There's a good half dozen pages of "look at how crappy it is to be Peter Parker" strung along like a series of pitiful firecrackers. He has to sell his camera cuz he's broke, but the vendor doesn't care and short changes him. He has to beg money off of Betty Brant. He tries to call Carlie and tell her he's late, but he's got no minutes of course, the phone screechs in his ear about how broke he is. He walks home and sees everybody wearing his shirts, so he runs upstairs and his roommate Michelle is selling all his clothes for rent(because he's a broke loser remember). Only shirt left is an ugly sweater that everybody hated, and its already 100+ degrees outside. He runs down the street in the ugly sweater, people shouting "MY EYES!" because how ugly/stupid/loserish Peter Parker is right now, gets to the Coffee Bean with Carlie who's sitting there with MJ and Harry. They all share embarassing stories about Peter, like Aunt May ironing his tighty whities, laughing as Peter sits there sweating lookin' awful.

>Like...I'm not making this up. This is actually how Waid constructed this issue. This is how Mark Waid sees Peter Parker, despite IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM has he ever been this much of a pitiful awful loser that the entire world shits on, not even in the cruel Lee/Ditko issues. Its insane.

What he really wanted was to keep Peter and MJ married. I forgot who said it but someone asked him at a con about Spider-Man and JMS said he wanted to keep them married with Peter being a teacher. But he went along with OMD because Marvel needed to break the two up, and figured it should have consequences (his plan was altering the events of the past, where Peter gets Harry help when Harry suffered from a drug addiction, and in turn Norman didn't kill Gwen).

Also there's bleedingcool.com/2011/12/10/fanboy-rampage-jms-vs-steve-wacker/ where JMS says

>I have always made it very clear that when I came aboard ASM I brought Peter and MJ back together because I liked writing them as a married couple. I made equally clear that the decision to unmarry them and, in the same brushstroke, eliminate virtually every story I’d written during those eight years was an editorial mandate, not my choice. I would’ve been happy to continue writing them married until the sun went out. Marvel wanted to unmarry them. That’s your choice, and your right. At no point did I duck out of anything. If you think I did, back it up: what are you referring to?

"No one dies" peter is the fucking worst peter
It's not like he hasn't spent his whole fucking life trying to stop tragedies of his loved ones, It's not like people dying around him has been his choice, but slott was retarded enough to go all "he's just realizing that, i'm the biggest spiderman fan"
And people actively praise this shit, oh and the art is fucking shit too since brand new day, bachalo is the only good artist spidey has had since

Gauntlet was okay. Grim Hunt really wasn't that good.

Also from that same thread someone linked to this:
benreillytribute.x10host.com/LifeofReilly17.html

>Bob Budiansky suggested that FINAL ADVENTURE end with Mary Jane suffering a miscarriage. I remember that I was very uncomfortable with that idea, but was willing to at least consider it as a possibility. Tom Brevoort, however, flatly refused. I believe his exact words were, "There's no way in hell that I'm going down in history as the man who killed Spider-Man's baby." I don't think this suggestion even made it to Fabian, so vehement was Brevoort about not going in that direction. Tom even suggested that we cancel the whole project, even though we were well underway. "No baby, no FINAL ADVENTURE," I believe he said, pointing out that the whole reason we were doing this limited series in the first place was to finally have Mary Jane give birth. I eventually came around to Tom's way of thinking, and in a July 8, 1995 memo to all the Spider-Man editors and writers, I suggested that if Mary Jane suffered a miscarriage, it should happen in the core books, and that "we pull the plug on the SPIDER-MAN: THE FINAL ADVENTURE limited series."

>Turn him into a CEO of a major company

What's stupid about this is that the whole setup in that arc comes off unearned. What's also worse is because of OMD brazenly giving away how they were willing to go ahead with the stupidest scenarios to roll back the clock, no one believes it'd actually stick (and it's kind of reflected in the sales).

It always gets me when creators miss that Peter was overblowing how people treated him in his head and Parker luck is just a dumb saying to excuse having to acknowledge that the bad stuff is usually a consequence of his actions.

I don't understand why people even like Spider-Man comics when even his most popular stories are total shit. Do they enjoy their character being constantly shit on and written by complete hacks?

Nice try, Sup Forums

>Shitting on based Ditko