Not caught up to the thread? No worries! Each of these stories, with a few exceptions, is relatively self-contained. Though obviously the more you've read, the more you'll like it. You can start with any writer you want.
Part 1 - Gods and Mortals (George Perez) desuarchive.org/co/thread/91303244/ Part 2 - Challenge of the Gods I-II (George Perez) desuarchive.org/co/thread/91309099/ Part 3 - Challenge of the Gods III (George Perez) desuarchive.org/co/thread/91350699/ Part 4 - "Taco Whiz" (Bill Messner-Loebs) desuarchive.org/co/thread/91378988/ Part 5 - The Contest (pre-Crisis) desuarchive.org/co/thread/91415540/ Part 6 - The Contest (Bill Messner-Loebs) Part 7 - The Challenge of Artemis (Bill Messner-Loebs) Part 8 - Paradise Lost + 1988 Bonus Books (Phil Jimenez) Part 9 - Paradise Found + Girl Frenzy: Donna Troy (Phil Jimenez) Part 10 - A League of One + The Golden Perfect (Christopher Moeller, Joe Kelly) Part 11 - The Hiketeia (Greg Rucka) Part 12 - Stoned (Greg Rucka) Part 13 - Land of the Dead (Greg Rucka) Part 14 - Manhunter: Unleashed (Mark Andreyko) Part 15 - Marathon (Greg Rucka) Part 16 - The Circle (Gail Simone)
We get a bit of lampshading of Amazons Attack's BEES.
Picoult's run clashed so horribly with Amazons Attack. It was like this almost romantic comedy type of thing while AA was this awful edgy bullshit fest.
Jose Powell
This courting ritual was detailed in Perez's run IIRC. Or at least somewhere before this. Simone doing her research.
Chase Robinson
I also commend Simone for not just throwing all of the plot threads from the previous run in the garbage. Whether it's because she liked that run or didn't want to take a dump on something that was fairly highly praised at the time, I don't know.
Charles Green
What did she mean by this?
Andrew Richardson
I can remember back at the time how much praise Who is Wonder Woman, Picoult's run, and Pfeifer's one-shot Gimme Shelter got, and years later I was excited to finally read them. And then Who is Wonder Woman and Gimme Shelter were complete ass.
Luis Jones
Back in the early issues of Perez's run, during the forced Invasion crossover Diana accidentally some Khunds, and it's pretty odd that a mandatory crossover issue would have some important character moments like that.
Carter Bennett
Tom Tresser was such a weird romantic interest. I mean, Nemesis? But i like his characterization. He was kinda like a nicer Batman.
Lincoln King
Personally I'm not a fan of him at all, but I think the choice was meant to be a replacement for Steve who was close to Steve's characterization in the 70's TV show.
Leo Harris
Because Steve was made kind of, well, old post-Crisis.
Jayden Morgan
That will aways fire my noggins.
Levi Turner
>a woman's amusements are sometimes inexplicable Lol.
Also I think I kind of like the element Gail introduced of Diana somewhat enjoying combat on some level. It makes her a little more deep and helps make sense of her... more OOC moments in other comics.
Alexander James
>and helps make sense of her... more OOC moments in other comics.
Come on, Texas. Don't go start making me hate you.
Camden Young
Whaddya mean, fella?
Zachary Johnson
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Christian Walker
Nothing can excuse Betty Bonkers Diana.
Joseph Hill
It doesn't excuse it, just makes it a bit easier to stomach.
By this point in her history Wonder Woman's shitty portrayals in other peoples' comics had become a bit of a problem, I just think this was Simone trying to address that, especially since back then continuity between all the titles in a universe was considered pretty important.
Evan Richardson
Still the writers of those bad versions are still totally at fault and will be first against the wall when the Wonder Woman revolution occurs.
Anthony Lewis
Cats don't seem to understand that shredding my legs with their claws is not a sign of affection.
Luis Ward
>hive of warrior bees Gail is being cheeky.
Thomas Collins
Some folks think the things the Khunds are saying would be appropriate coming out of Diana's mouth, sadly.
Josiah Foster
Well, if we're talking about the main line comics i don't think she suffered that much from bad writing. The only bad thing really was the whole Max Lord shenanigan. The ones to really suffer where the other amazons with Lyta being a huge cunt and things like Amazons Attack.
In terms of Di characterization New 52 was a lot worse in that regard.
Parker Bailey
That's what I was meaning to say. Outside of her own comic you had a lot of writers who clearly never read her comics and were drawing from things they had read like Kingdom Come instead.
Anthony Brooks
>conversion by Wildstorm
newfag here, was this a scanning group?
Aaron Scott
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Anthony Foster
>Kingdom Come
Goddamn, this will always be a blight for the character.
Thomas Rogers
Yeah, I believe it refers to ripping the digital versions to CBR format.
I find it kind of disgusting when scanner groups feel the need to stamp their names all over the creative works of others, but they do at least provide a valuable service.
Andrew Cruz
>Outside of her own comic you had a lot of writers who clearly never read her comics and were drawing from things they had read like Kingdom Come instead.
Which comics? You mean Elseworlds or things from main line like Justice League of America also?
Anthony Turner
Stuff at the time like Justice League of America, yes. Specifically I mean crossovers and events. She'll usually show up and do nothing, or she'll show up with a sword so they can have scenes of her fighting things. Rarely are her actual skills used.
An opposite example is Kelly's JLA, where her abilities of diplomacy and especially her lasso were always important to the team.
Colton Baker
>Khund's honor people by sending people to beat their asses >Diana has Khund fangirls
Ethan Rivera
I can't think of a lot of specific examples outside events like Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis, but pretty much every long-running series from the 00's would eventually have a Wondie cameo issue, just like with Batman and Superman, and most of the time it would range from lame to awful.
Blake Powell
Whenever i see Hephasteus' magical sword that can split atoms being referenced i froth at the mouth.
Logan Russell
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Asher Morris
The main problem is the whole "trinity" concept. Whenever the trinity show up in a cross-over or event they tried to show WW as the bad cop, since Superman's already playing the good cop. In case you're wondering Batman usually play the role of the police chief that bark orders.
Jackson Brown
Just a cursory look in my library of things that had bad Wondie crossovers or appearances: Waid's Flash, Winick's Green Arrow, Johns' Booster Gold, Justice League of America, Pfiefer's Catwoman, Johns' Action Comics, Countdown, and most famously All-Star Batman and Robin.
Jaxson Reyes
Very good observation.
Christopher Martin
>Justice League of America
Meltzer or McDuffie?
Jacob Turner
Meltzer actually strangely enough did a decent job. McDuffie and Burnett's stuff is what I mean. Wonder Woman notably had some bad characterization in the JLU cartoon, but McDuffie usually wrote her pretty well, so I'm disappointed in his JLA run, but that had a lot more problems than Wondie.
Also McDuffie wrote perhaps JLU's single best depiction of Diana in the episode Ultimatum, where ironically she was basically a supporting character.
Thomas Barnes
It was so good that when I was watching it I thought "this must be one of those ones by Simone", but then I looked it up and it was McDuffie.
Jonathan Brown
JM Dematteis, as much as I love the guy, just cannot write Wonder Woman.
Nolan James
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Adrian Nguyen
This line reminds me of a shitty line from Picoult's run where Diana says she believes in morality and she fights on the side of good, and Circe "gets" her by saying some edgy shit about the definition of good changing over time, and Diana just stands there dumbfounded.
Leo Ross
>McDuffie
Yeah. His JLoA run was a pretty big disappointment. Specially thanks to all the hype from his good material from the JL/JLU.
Thomas Scott
Good doesn't change, you dumbo. What's accepted by society does, laws do, but at the end of the day, "good" means peace and fairness, which is what Wonder Woman is all about.
Most embarrassingly Circe says something like "in this country it was once considered good to own men as slaves!". Like no it fucking wasn't, it was just legal. Even slaveowners just felt it was justified, not "good", though I guess some told themselves it was OK because the slaves got some kind of job security or something out of it.
Bentley Perez
Wait till you see the other covers in this run.
Ian Ortiz
I found his take on her in JL3000/JL3001 a self-aware parody of her terrible characterization, even if it indulge in it.
But yeah in everything else he wrote her as this blase girl with the bitch face that drive all the other women crazy for being popular or because of her closeness to Superman. Or everyone else because of her perpetual stick up the ass.
Thomas Long
That's definitely what I got from 3000, or at least was supposed to be an extreme exaggeration.
I did like in that early JLI crossover when Beetle was hitting on her, she didn't go "UGH men amirite ladies" like a lot of writers would do, she actually thanked him for the compliments.
Luis Lewis
And Fire was getting all pissed and jealous about that.
Christ, I love JLI.
Blake Wilson
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Eli Hill
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Zachary Myers
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Colton Brown
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Wyatt Hill
There can be some meta-commentary in this thread about this fangirl who seems to only know Diana as the great destroyer through MTV and war stories
Anthony Moore
Hey Tex, I'd just like to say thanks; these storytimes are often the only legit thing on Sup Forums, and probably the only reason I'm still on here.
Carter Morgan
Good point, wasn't even thinking of that.
Liam Long
Who even had USED Nemesis in years?
Jose Myers
Thanks, that means a lot. I love the discussion in here.
Jaxson Carter
wow. I never thought I'd see a wonder woman in space/Green Lantern crossover. Its surprisingly awesome. We need more earth-based heros taking a tour around the cosmos with a GL
Carter Kelly
Hey Tex.
Been meaning to ask, what are your thoughts on Amazons being drawn with muscles? Yay or nay?
Kho is cute. CUTE!
Carter Campbell
Check out the beginning of Bill Messner-Loeb's run, no GLs but Diana becomes a straight-up space pirate.
Jacob Nguyen
HA! Space-Pirate Woman, that sounds amazing
Elijah Miller
I like them to be varied. Like Io in Rucka's run is buff af. Obviously no Amazons are gonna be doughy, but some should be skinny, some should be relatively THICC, etc. Makes them more like people.
As for Diana, I like how she is in this run, and of course Perez. She's fit and toned but not to bodybuilder or UFC fighter levels. She's meant to be kind of the ideal of traditional feminine beauty, in the same way I think Superman is supposed to be kind of the perfect beefcake.
Making her too muscular is, to me, kind of like making Superman ottermode or like Dick Grayson/Hal Jordan.
Nolan Diaz
Like, Cho's art? Love it. But it's too much for Diana.
This is just me and obviously it's something that everyone has a different idea of, both hardcore Wondie fans and non-fans.
Jackson Scott
I love personalized Lantern costumes.
Uniforms make more sense, I guess, though.
Bentley Torres
Imagine how many new readers we'd get if this was the OP image.
Dominic Nelson
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Anthony Turner
I remember a long, long, LONG time ago someone storytimed this issue and I really loved it.
I think that was even before the New 52, or possibly right after it.
Carson Jackson
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John Green
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Daniel Bailey
There's an old joke among Wonder Woman fans that Diana just forgot she had a lasso throughout all of Amazons Attack, because if she had just used it on Hippolyta at the start, the whole plot would have been averted.
Aiden Morgan
I find Simone to be really good at mixing action with peaceful approaches with Diana. Probably why she's also really good with Hawk and Dove.
Charles Bell
;_; doggos
Wyatt Flores
I actually dig Cho's look for Diana because he actually has a good grasp of how muscles work and look when on curvier women, and when he draws them exerting themselves you can see him illustrating physical strain in the arms, legs, and back muscules. Hell, he's one of the only artists that even remembers women HAVE back muscles it seems like.
Noah Barnes
YES!
Diana + classic heroes is so good
Jonathan Miller
Where or When is Diana right now?
Oliver Carter
Cho is an amazing artist. I'm still confused on why Sup Forums never bothered with Totally Awesome Hulk when we're all so high on Cho all the time.
Angel Hall
Oh, this is that thread that Simone continued in Secret Six
Juan White
It shall be explained soon.
Ryan Martin
The question must be, is Grendel based on the original legend, or the Novel from his PoV?
Angel Gonzalez
Uhhh, this is the real WildStorm who did these conversions to digital format, as in the ex-Image DC imprint, not some sort of shitty scanning group
Carson Walker
Wow, that's like....CLASSIC Beowulf too, back from the late 70's I think it was. "Abanan afo Beowulf", Beowulf.
Jack Stewart
Yes, which we will also see later in the BOP crossover arc.
Oh, seriously? Didn't know that, thank you.
Chase Green
Anyone else getting a Skartaris vibe here?
This is probably me pulling bullshit out of my ass, but I think that's part of why the sword and shield are starting to overshadow the lasso. The Lasso is meant to be a non-lethal weapon, fitting for a warrior-diplomat. But that doesn't quite fit with the Xena knockoff shit that hack writers want, so she uses her signature items less and less because they're not "badass" enough.
Gabriel Thompson
100% correct. I wish in Injustice she was more a "grappler" character (I think that's what it's called?) that used the lasso instead of shield banging like she's out of 300.
Grayson Howard
Etta makes me so goddamn happy in this run.
Austin Richardson
>Anyone else getting a Skartaris vibe here?
You should, because there's a correlation. DC's Beowulf was one of it's answers to Marvel's then-ridiculously successful Conan the Barbarian series (one of the best comic books ever imho). DC tried several, including Claw the Unconquered and Beowulf, but eventually Mike Grell's Warlord series took off and was the most successful out of all of them.
Carson Robinson
Good post, I've never gotten too into the DC Sword and Sorcery stuff but I do love Marvel's Conan.
Luke Lopez
>mindbreak As usual, we can't escape the /d/
Christopher James
>Diana in a snappy business suit sweating man.jpg
Jack Wright
That is good to hear. I always thought it odd that "wildstorm" would be on some of these issues, but I guess that makes sense if they were being outsourced to digitize books
Jonathan Ortiz
>But that doesn't quite fit with the Xena knockoff shit that hack writers want, so she uses her signature items less and less because they're not "badass" enough.
Part of the problem is that if she flies and punches people only then aside from the lasso she's visually just Superman but with even LESS power options, so in a fighting game giving her others makes a bit of sense. Making her a Grappler would be cool, but the Netherrealm Studios Mortal Kombat engine mechanics are fucking horseshit for it; the entire gameplay relies on chaining together fast-paced staggered combos and specials.
Kevin Scott
I think you'd like Warlord.
Michael Lopez
I remember reading that Malibu was originally theorized to have been bought by Marvel solely for their coloring department. Maybe this is somewhat similar but obviously DC also valued their IPs.
Thomas Campbell
No joke, bought the hardcover collection when I found it at a comic shop last time I was in NYC. It's just been on my shelf since then.
Jaxson Wilson
Also I'm a massive, massive fan of Simonson Thor
Oliver Cruz
Real talk, I think that the Skartaris arc of Secret Six is my least favourite (because I lack the knowledge of the setting), but it does have some good costume changes. Sword and Sandals stuff just is not for me
Sebastian Wilson
I haven't read the original Beowulf OR Grendel since high school. But I loved it so much back then that I bought a copy of the complete Beowulf text because our schoolbook only contained like maybe 20% of it.
