Who was in the right?

Who was in the right?

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Steven, considering you can take out a Gem without killing them.

and they'll just come back even angrier

Bismuth's weapon wasn't very good. Well, for anything other than shattering Pink Diamond, anyway.

>It's just a spike to crack gems

It's not even that good as a weapon. A gun would do the same thing while being much more practical.

...unless you bubble them, with takes less than a second.

If you have a species this aggressive, constantly threatening your species, you wipe them out. All of them.

Bismuth's anger was righteous, but her plan would have most likley caused more harm than good.

Neither were right.

Morally speaking? Steven. You can't resort to the most barbaric approach of your enemies, make it into a machine of convenience, and strap it on the wrist of every soldier. It stops being a Civil war of gems vs gems and just turns it into gems vs daleks.

Tactically speaking? Steven. You'd need to pin down your enemy to have even a half decent shot at shattering them, they'd need to be in extremely close range AND you probably wouldn't be able to use another weapon meaning you're completely fucked if the person fighting you has more than three brain cells.

If anything, it's just a glorified executioners weapon.

Bismuth was deranged with suppressed rage, PTSD and a sense of betrayal. Gem wars go on for stupid amounts of time, the conditions are probably trench like, gems don't understand sleeping unless anyone tells it to them, and shell shock would probably be ignored just like everything else in the Gem Caste. It'd be the hell of WW1 amplified over and over and over again, and it'd go on for eternity.

And Bismuth was about to make it so much worse.

thread over, time to go home

and you bubble them, you keep bubbling more and more gems. Now you have to find space to store em all and have soldiers guarding them 24/7. You wont win a gem war doing that.

that's stupid
enemies are to be fought, not annihilated

When you have a species that can be permanently decommissioned with no more effort than it takes to incapacitate them and can be repurposed as an energy source for crazy magic artifacts, you don't kill them out of spite.

no bubbled gem has ever escaped captivity by themeselves, the crystal gems are not shown guarding their bubbled gems, implying that once bubbled minimum security is required

It worked perfectly fine for both sides. If anything they're useful as bait and hostages, like prisoners of war, or as power sources for magical devices. It's a waste to just destroy them.

...

Bismuth. She did nothing wrong. Steven was the one that fucked up for not even trying to listen to her points and just assuming Rose was good point blank. Rose was an evil beastiality practicing terrorist.

we know it's you yellow diamond

Steven was right to oppose her, but wrong to then simply leave her bubbled instead of bringing her back with the other gems present so they could actually try talking it out.

Bismuth was clearly not mentally stable. Pretty much the second steven questioned what she was doing she tried to murder him in cold blood

Like, she didn't even try to argue her point. She just tried to kill him

you can stop a person without killing them but you don't see use filling every guns with rubber bullets in war do you

crystal gems don't guard their gems because there's no risk an enemy or rogue gem getting into the temple and freeing them


I don't think I've ever seen gems used to power anything just lapis attached to a mirror. As for using them as bait yes that might work but only in small amounts you cant just bubble entire armies of gems

you're right the specific weapon she used made no sense but the general idea of shattering them instead of bubbling them makes perfect sense

Is Bismuth ever coming back?

Dreadlock North Korea did nothing wrong

You have to consider the fact just how FAST some gems can reanimate after getting poofed. Remember when amethyst reformed almost immediately after getting poofed in Reformed? Its not that hard to imagine that soldiers would be trained to properly regenerate as fast as possible after getting poofed. THE LAST thing you want happening on the battlefield is you taking out one gem, getting immediately jumped by another and before you're able to get rid of them the gem you took out from before already regenerated back

Bismuth was right but only in the sense that if you're at war there's nothing morally wrong with killing your opponents

tactically speaking as well in general if you're in active combat with your opponent it makes much more sense to kill than capture

Did you forget how their forms are unstable when they're quickly regenerated?

and they can train themselves to be better than amethyst

if youre referring to how amethyst regenerated quickly and it didnt work out, id point out that any soldier would be better trained and more experienced in regeneration than she was

>Morally speaking? Steven
you think it's morally wrong for them to kill members of the enemy army in a war of defense?

>You can't resort to the most barbaric approach
you think killing someone while you're at war with them is more barbaric than locking them in a cell for thousands of years?

>You'd need to pin down your enemy to have even a half decent shot
yes the weapon was stupid but are you honestly against the idea of killing people while you are at war

That was just amethyst. Homeworld and even rose's rebellion could train soldiers to regenerate properly in time. Also even if they get something during the regen process wrong that's still another gem to worry about who could do you harm

>their forms are unstable
they could still be a threat and that's a risk no real soldier would ever take

Not as easily as you can a gem though. And besides, over 99.9999% of bullets fired in any war are filler; even then, it's not that simple.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventional_Weapons
Edgymcmetaledge: her weapon is complete and absolute bollocks; Jasper's destabilizer or whatever has as much range and shoots much faster, you could build an army of people with handheld jackhammers and they all could be shot down by a single person with a destabilizer, and that's not counting the arsenal of the whole gem armada.

There's no reason to assume it's exclusive to Amethyst or that it can be controlled. It can be simply what happens when a gem is worked out too hard.

That wasn't because she was mentally unstable, it was because the breaking point thing was a test to determine whether or not Steven actually was a separate being from Rose Quartz. When Steven rejected it, she took it as proof that Rose was just bullshitting the other crystal gems about dying and went ballistic.

It wasn't that unreasonable from her point of view.

Amethyst's regenerations didn't start getting really unstable until the third or fourth one in rapid succession. She regenerated pretty quickly the last time she was poofed and the only deformity was a bad eye.

The thing was that every single Crystal Gem sided with Homeworld originally, they only defected because Rose made them aware of how shitty the Diamonds and other Elites were treating them. It wasn't an overnight shift of loyalties, Rose's army grew slowly over time as more and more gems found themselves agreeing with her.

By choosing Bismuth's method not only does Homeworld have even more reasons to be hostile towards the Crystal Gems, but plenty of low-caste gems are denied of their chance to defect and fight for their freedom.

Last time, she regenerated after a few minutes. It's better compared to Reformed when she only took a few seconds.

There's also no reason to assume that it CAN'T be controlled. And let's just say that even if or whatever reason that it can't be controlled its better to have the gem be shattered than to have a quartz reform behind you with arms for legs, jump on you and poof or even shatter you out of spite

Neither of them were wrong. No one philosophy is right, and none of them ever will be

>you think it's morally wrong for them to kill members of the enemy army in a war of defense?
That depends entirely on your reasons behind the war, but for the most part, yes.
>you think killing someone while you're at war with them is more barbaric than locking them in a cell for thousands of years?
Considering gems don't have mortal minds that degenerate into complete psychosis over short periods of time of isolation and even just continued existence, yes.
>yes the weapon was stupid but are you honestly against the idea of killing people while you are at war
If all conflict in human history had been solved with war, and if all wars in human history had been violent we would have gone extinct way before the invention of the nuclear bombs. War is a mean to an end, it is not the only one and it's doesn't always involve killing people.

>Not as easily as you can a gem though
i don't really care how difficult it is what matters to me is the fact that they are at war when you're at war if given the opportunity you capture your opponent but you are in no way wrong for killing them in any other situation

the idea that Steven basically put Bismuth(his ally) in a coma because she was trying to kill people that were actively trying to kill her
is at the very least off-putting

>You'd need to pin down your enemy to have even a half decent shot at shattering them, they'd need to be in extremely close range AND you probably wouldn't be able to use another weapon meaning you're completely fucked if the person fighting you has more than three brain cells.

Agreed, taking advantage of the resonant frequency of a Gem's gemstone and use that to shatter them from a safe distance is MUCH safer and MORE cost-effective option.

Homeworld wouldn't have hated them any more than they already did regardless of whether they use bismuth method. Jasper (and I'm sure other homeworld veterans too) was already shattering gems left and right. All homeworld what have done was seen how efficient Bismuth weapon was (forget about the retarded design for a bit) and tried to develop their own variant

so if you're fighting a revolution you shouldn't kill members of enemy army because there's a chance they might defect? this isn't something that could be successfully applied to real-life any history book to tell you this

I remember reading somewhere that Rose deciding to not shatter enemy gems kept the war from escalating even more, that as bad as whatever it was that corrupted all of those gems was they could have done something even worse. And none of them knew about the cluster at the time, Garnet/Sapphire didn't even know enough to use as a reference in future vision.

But it was all based on conjecture since we don't really know that much about Homeworld.

If it was controllable, Pearl would have been able to regenerate in a much shorter time frame perfectly.

She didn't, and it's not.

Pearl has OCD. Taking weeks to regenerate like that isn't the norm. Ever other gem we've seen was able to do it pretty quick.

>that's stupid
enemies are to be fought, not annihilated

HELLO M'LaaaaaAAAAAADY! I'm glad that chivalry is not dead in the world. The universe needs more men like you. *tips fedora*

Why! CHIVARLY at it's best is when it's dead. Shot in it's gullible back thinking that people follow, *GASP* THE RRRRRRRRUUUUUUUULES!!?!!?!? This world!!!! is amazing at being so downright c-c-c-c-COLD!! HOW DARE HE SWINDLE ME OUT OF A GAME! A GAME THAT I HOLD DEAR TO. A GAME; THAT I CALL LIFE!

GOOD DAY SIR!!!

Bismuth. Her weapon was wildly impractical. Yes, it permanently kills the enemy, but it takes a long ass time and the target has to remain still for it. Considering that bubbling an enemy gem takes them out of the fight without needless slaughter and is also a lot faster than Bismuth's weapon, there's really no reason to use it other than pure spite.

pearl chose to stay in there that long.... just as amethyst chose to come out almost immediately

Bismuth was right

the homeworld gems would never understand, they would keep coming back to destroy earth to avenge Pink D. You can't talk yourself out of this.

Don't forget Amethyst apparently has things physically wrong with her. So her having issues with regenerating multiple times in rapid succession does not mean every other gem, even other amethysts, would.

Yes, but if it was an ability that could be controlled, Pearl would have learned it during the war.

She wouldn't have needed that long to regenerate.

I'm sure there's a middle ground, but those warriors wouldn't be at peak power.

Bismuth designed and created the Breaking point well before the destabilizer came about and after being freed had no idea about the device.

That's kind of like shit talking the inventor of the crossbow now because fully automatic firearms exist despite the fact they did not when the crossbow was invented.

>That depends entirely on your reasons behind the war
the reasons are pretty clear they wish to defend their right to live how they choose and to defend the earth

>War is a mean to an end, it is not the only one and it's doesn't always involve killing people
you're right war is a means to an end but you can't have a war without killing there's no such thing as a non violent war

if we're applying both of their philosophies on war to real life then Bismuth is clearly in the right no one has ever won a war without killing their opponents or presenting a credible threat that they will kill them

but if we're just talking about just the show then stephen is in the right because the writers will eventually make him right

Since this thread is already shitposting central, might as well leave this here instead of making another thread

youtube.com/watch?v=uVJhtbh3xmU

Its good, its basically everything that has been said 9 thousand times already but with a lot less "REEEEE" to speak of

There hasn't really been any proof either way. But Garnet expressing her disapproval of Amethyst's rushed regenerations implies that it's an unfavorable action that applies to all gems, not a correlation to her defectiveness.

well bismuth wasnt.
i mean, creating a weapon to insta kill your enemies, IN A WAR, yes, its something you should use. but bismuth made it look like she wanted to kill the whole gem race who wherent crystal gems.thats fucked up.
in a war, yeah you have to kill, but in ww2 a soldier saying he will kill every last german is one who shouldnt carry a gun.

people forget, in present times, the war is over. yeah the diamonds are still out there, but unless theres other species of life, they are being racist asshole in the other side of the galaxy and they arent bothering the CGS. It makes sense why bismuth would feel like this considering she missed 5000 years in a whim on her point of view, but it doesnt make it right.

The Breaking Point was a good idea in the war. Killing all homeworld wasnt.

Also i love how Sup Forums bashes this show for being "nothing but waifu shit" and yet we have these discussions

Bismuth

>but in ww2 a soldier saying he will kill every last german is one who shouldnt carry a gun.

No, he's the one you put on the front line to act as a meat shield.

Or maybe Garnet expressed her disapproval for that because given the situation there was no reason for amethyst to rush her regen the first time and to keep doing it over and over again messing herself up even more in the process?

Pearl probably uses being poofed as a chance to relax and clear her mind. It's not like anything was going on that would require she regenerate instantly.

Bismuth
Peace through Superior Firepower

>guy making the video:
hey i know you like the show but lets admit it has flaws.
>comments
FUCK THIS SHITTY SHOW IT SUCKS BURN CARTOON NETWORK

>you are in no way wrong for killing them in any other situation
Yes you are.
>is at the very least off-putting
Still better than killing

>Now you have to find space to store em all
If only we had some kind of specifically tuned doorway that could teleport us somewhere, or rooms that customly only open to specific combinations of us...Damn, if only.

why does it matter if they can train it or not canonically some gems have been shown to be able to regenerate really fast if you were to apply this to real life that would be more than enough reason to decide to shatter them rather than bubble them in the heat of battle

Doesn't disprove my point.

There was a moral highground to keep. Rose was a huge softie, and it's implied she regretted shattering Pink Diamond, so I don't think it'd be in-character for her to accept a weapon that defeats the ideal she was trying to fight for. She didn't choose a specific number for the size of her army, throughout the whole war it's extremely likely that she kept the doors open to whoever tried to defect from Homeworld.

Gems aren't humans.

that gun is stupid was anyway

killing the gem's body normally and then shattering the gem it yields sounds much more reasonable then directly attacking the gem while the body is still there

What gems besides Amethyst?

Yes let us not shatter any gems, bubble them all and store thousands, tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of them somewhere

>Yes you are
how give me an example where you meet a member of an opposing army and there's no chance to capture them so you killed him instead and you are in the wrong

Quite frankly, Bismuth was right. You have to understand it from her perspective, the CG were rebels, they were against whole empire, and most likely the punishment for traitor rebels like all off them was to be shattered, execution. And you wake up to find out that you lost the war terribly. She's right to believe they've been backed into a corner and that standards have been thrown out of the window, especially after the Diamonds song-nuked the planet and turned everyone into monsters, which is arguably worse than straight up killing.
She's right to think killing the members of a dogmatic empire is the only chance they have, she's probably had her own experiences.
But you won't get a straight answer of most of us here. A great deal of people won't pick up a weapon and try to take another life in order to defend their loved ones and ideals, they can tell you they would, but it takes a real unique kind of courage. We can only fully understand what we've experienced, after all, so it is much harder to take Bismuth's side in the whole debacle.

>Gems aren't humans.
what's the point of even having this conversation if you've decided that gems are so fundamentally different from humans that we can't apply thousands of years of well-tested tactics and strategies to them

my entire point is that for actual soldier it would only take one confirm instance of quick regeneration to make it so they would shatter their enemies instead of bubbling them because it would only take one time for them to get shattered

>A great deal of people won't pick up a weapon and try to take another life in order to defend their loved ones and ideals

do you really believe this are you european or canadian? serious question because where i live (southern america) this seems completely unthinkable.
the general moral consensus in the south is that if someone threatens your life or the life of your loved ones then you're completely justified in killing them the overwhelming majority of people including me would feel no regret or guilt about it either.

is this an uncommon belief? do people from other countries or other parts of america feel that they don't have a right to defend themselves with lethal force if necessary

>there's no such thing as a non violent war
History proves you wrong; low violent wars, wars without casualties and wars without actual combat have occurred in history, but I'll give it to you that is really hard to come across information on them, no one talks about the fish that jumped on the boat, after all; sometimes they'll even deny such fish exists, most of the times said fish wont even be acknowledged. And besides, the questioning was about what course of action is more ethical, wars are by definition unethical, even non-violent ones.
>well before the destabilizer came about
Since I don't watch the show that much I wont argue with you there, but it does sounds a bit like mere speculation; actually, isn't there a scene were bishmuth actually poofs a gem out with just her fists?
Also, you can indeed blame the inventor of the crossbow if he's aware a long time has passed and doesn't even try to get acknowledged with newer technology, yet, tries to push his own invention further. And specially so if he's trying to use crossbows to hunt chickens, given how much a crossbow takes to load, aim and shoot and how even some more primitive technologies available are much more time efficient for such a task

You went into a war, that's already morally wrong enough, and you're making up an impossible scenario, ergo, in a 1v1 scenario, it is always possible to incapacitate enemies without killing them outright, this also ignores all the other methods and technologies that gems have available that humans do not and the very nature of their physical forms that even further the impossibility of your idea. So I'm not even going to amuse it with even more senseless speculation.

The problem a lot of people seem to be having here is that GEMS ARE NOT HUMANS. They never have been and never will be.

Humans are crafty motherfuckers. The amount of effort and resources to neutralize, restrain, and maintain just a single human prisoner indefinitely makes the option unfavorable in many situations. Really, there's no way to truly neutralize a human without killing them because we're flesh and blood matter. And the more prisoners you put together, the greater their total ability becomes unless you incur a 'crabs in a bucket' scenario on them.

Gems have no need for most things humans need. They can quickly be neutralized safely and stored cheaply while not experiencing the passage of time. Lapis in the mirror and Pearl in her episode both seemed to comprehend the passage of time while inside their gems, but Peridot and Centipeedle who were bubbled didn't. That makes bubbling effectively cryogenically freezing gems in time, with none of the costs to maintain besides ensuring the bubble is not popped.

Add in that the Breaking Point is both incredibly inefficient and generally stupid to use (since a ranged weapon would be much more effective at any task), and you have a device that only has direct applications as a cruel execution device. And this is also in a world where captured gems can be used to power machines, making execution wasteful.

Anyone arguing differently is either playing devil's advocate or is so incredibly autistic I question the safety of their interest in fantasy fiction.

>the general moral consensus in the south is that if someone threatens your life or the life of your loved ones then you're completely justified in killing them
Is that why South America is such a murder ridden shithole? I know that, I'm Mexican and I'm no stranger to news about people killing each other over squabbles.
I know what I'm saying when I made that kind of statement. Unfortunately, those with courage can be also psychopaths, but your average joe will be hesitant about such actions. The idea of taking lives isn't one what's easily digested.

Yeah, it's easy and works. Fuck off Woolie.

Bismuth.

>The Breaking Point was a good idea in the war
Except you can just bubble them with no consequence. And you can let them free under guard and convince them of their own worth turning them to love the Earth that freed them. But no that'd never work...

>History proves you wrong
okay so they have been a handful of non-violent war that still does not invalidate the point that that if you get into a war and decide that you're not going to kill your opponent despite the fact that they're trying to kill you is stupid unrealistic and would not work especially if you possessive a force thousands of times smaller than your enemies

>We'll just restraining them and reeducate them :D
that sounds mighty sinister

To be fair Peridot is a technician not a fighter, and a crippled Era 2 one rather than a full size normal one to boot. I don't think any other gem is lower in terms of direct combat ability.

Even pearls, made to be tall and pretty and hold stuff and sing songs for their masters, are agile, quick, and utterly devoted to said masters.

>You went into a war, that's already morally wrong enough
even if it's a war of defense that you didn't start and that if you don't fight in you'll be killed

>So I'm not even going to amuse it with even more senseless speculation.
so you can't think of a situation

It is user, that's the point. You can see Rose's methods from multiple points.

I think thats whats implied though with the weapon especially since it takes awhile to ready a charge. You get them while they are in gem form.

That doesn't suggest they regenerated quickly. Any gem that poofed them could've just moved on to the next non-poofed gem instead of wasting time trying to shatter them.

>they have been a handful of non-violent war that still does not invalidate the point
Eh, yeah, it does.
>decide that you're not going to kill your opponent despite the fact that they're trying to kill you is stupid unrealistic
Eh, no, it isn't, as I said, that depends on the motives behind the war; but encountering an enemy in a war and not commuting murder aren't mutually exclusive events, there are actually many ways in which it can go down and not all of them involve you dying; but all of them do require a bit of personal integrity and emotional maturity, traits that soldiers commonly lack in great quantity and for obvious reasons.
No one said anything about not fighting, but about not killing.
>so you can't think of a situation
The problem here is that no matter how hard I try I can no sooner explain to you why your scenario is impossible sooner than I could convincingly explain why 1+1 does not equal any random number different from 2 that you are convinced it is. As I wrote above, emotional maturity.

So, then: everything about the Gem War is totally without analogy to human warfare and human experience.

Why is it treated that way by the show? Gems aren't humans, and their conflict contains no lessons for us.

Let me rephrase that; you need more than one person to start a war. And the crystal gems still developed a new ideology that contradicts the one of the homeworld and went into war with them, so yeah, even though the action wasn't the only option if was probably the most practical at the moment, but that still doesn't make it an ethical decision.

>Is that why South America is such a murder ridden shithole?
but its not south america doesn't even have the highest crime rate in america. there are some european countries with higher violent crime rates

>I'm Mexican
do you live in mexico because i've been to mexico and i find it hard to believe that anyone who still lives in mexico could find anything but the roughest parts of america to be anything close to a murder ridden shithole

alos when i say South America i mean the southern parts of the usa

>but it does sounds a bit like mere speculation

The breaking point was designed and made back when the war was in full swing. I don't have the math for figuring out when that was on hand but it's safe to assume that was thousands of years ago. Since the CG apparently had no idea what the destabilizer was until it just poofed Garnet like she wasn't there I would assume it didn't exist back during the war when the breaking point was made. At least not in a mass produced form.

>isn't there a scene were bishmuth actually poofs a gem out with just her fists?

I am not sure, been a while since I saw her episode. But I would imagine being able to do that without a weapon is something most gems don't have the raw power to do, hence the need for gems like Bismuth that make weapons, and if it was in a flash back we don't know the state of the gem she poofed.

>when i say South America i mean the southern parts of the usa